Originally Posted by alsyli

BTW, Car and Driver on-line has a quote from Gordon Wagener that the next C- and E-class models will have segment leading interiors. Will be interested to see what they look like....

Originally Posted by alsyli

The few times car mags have mentioned the MB stop/start function, they've said it's pretty seamless. Not clear to me why BMW version isn't that good, considering that they introduced it 2008?

The alternators for stop/start cars are supposed to be beefed up to handle the extra stress. I assume something similar must happen for hybrid, and I don't think Prius owners have been complaining too much? But I don't read purposely read about Priuses (Pri-i), so I wouldn't know.... ::snort::

BTW, Car and Driver on-line has a quote from Gordon Wagener that the next C- and E-class models will have segment leading interiors. Will be interested to see what they look like....

Originally Posted by Tjdehya

I hope the new S is a good example of what is to come for the new E.
Have you guys seen it? It looks so good I cry at night because I cant afford it.

Originally Posted by K-A

Yeah I heard about what Wagener said. Problem is the C spy interior pics sand predictions look pretty terrible and low rent, as they mimic a lot from the A and CLA lousy interiors. I have very low faith in Wagener based on his portfolio thus far so well see.

Originally Posted by K-A

I've just heard a lot of negatives about the A interior, and I believe it cause I can tell those materials are some of the lousier ones M-B has used lately. About the CLA, I don't know about tactile quality yet, but lots of stuff doesn't flow, like the door trim and dash, etc.

One thing that really bothers me about Wagener and M-B in general, is how they keep throwing their previous models under the bus. How can we have confidence in them if they admit fault again in the future?

Case in point: The E facelift. Clearly they thought the pre-facelift was lacking, a design they were pumping just a few years ago, and had to go to drastic measure to about-face it. Then, Wagener says something along the lines of "M-B interiors weren't known to be class leaders, and that is about to change with future models". So what, is he then admitting the E interior isn't class leading? Now I heard that they don't like what they did with the current ML which of course will sell, but seems to have gotten a collective "meh".

Originally Posted by CEB

I think there is a difference between throwing a previous model under the bus and admitting that one could have done better.
(snip)....

Originally Posted by CEB

I remember a time when MB refused to add adjustable steering wheels because "we put them in the coorect place."

MB has always been more about function over form and they frequently got tripped up when they decided to add form.

Originally Posted by CEB

I think there is a difference between throwing a previous model under the bus and admitting that one could have done better.

Mercedes interiors have never been class leaders - Audi held that distinction in the early part of this century and prior to that nobody really paid that much attention to haptics.

Audi is having a hard time holding on to that lead and other manufacturers - even US manufacturers - are learning the importance of interior design. Honda learned it the hard way with the 2012 Civic.

BMW and the early variants of iDrive are prime examples of lousy interior design and most every BMW executive will be happy to say that they've evolved. That said, the evolution has been pretty decent

MB has recently overtaken BMW in US sales and the only way to hold onto that is with change.

BTW - how is your 535?

Originally Posted by alsyli

Pretty much agree w/ this post. Haven't we talked amongst ourselves about how peculiar some of MB's styling cues are and how their interiors (particularly the last gen C-class prior to the facelift) were sometimes surprisingly low-rent? I think it's a good thing that MB is admitting that they can improve upon their already-good products.

I think it'd be better if they designed the cars "well enough" that they didn't have to make "corrections." But this attitude is WAY better than what MB was spouting in the late 1990s when their reliability had fallen off of a cliff in surveys, and they'd merely sniff and then respond (paraphrasing), "Our clients are more picky than those driving Subaru." How much MB wishes that were the case....

Originally Posted by CEB

I remember a time when MB refused to add adjustable steering wheels because "we put them in the coorect place."

MB has always been more about function over form and they frequently got tripped up when they decided to add form.

Originally Posted by alsyli

I also think MB got (and has gotten) tripped up when they decided to add "sport" to their mainstream sedans. Mercedes does "luxurious but athletic" quite well. Sport? Not so much, IMHO. Leave that to the BMWs and the Infinitis of the world....

Originally Posted by K-A

Firstly, nice to see ya back here. Yeah, I agree with you. However, it's just bothered me about just how much M-B has done it lately. First the C interior makeover which was clearly due to the fact that they should have never released a C with that pre-facelift interior, and on it went. About Audi interiors I really never got the hoopla. Even their new cars don't impress me. The A6 interior I feel is cheaper and chintzier in many ways than its German competitors'. BMW's interior design in the E65 era was very cold and un-elegant to me as well, however to their credit, for better or worse, they totally revolutionized the way interiors would be designed in the future. IMO M-B and many others went through growing pains trying to modernize their interiors to be "inspired by" or "copy" BMW.

Good to be back - at least if my purchase works. Since the turn of the century it seems that all the hoopla has been interiors and following the leader. Audi did worderful interiors in the 2002-2005 era cars where they were the leaders. BMW quickly caught on and I think that BMW has currently surpassed Audi in interior design and now everyone is following BMW.

I truly love the 535i. It's seriously answered all my desires for a car. Speaking of interiors, I feel it has one of my favorite interiors ever put in a car. Both rich and elegant yet "cocooning" and very "at your service" in a sportily drivers oriented way. The way the dash is tilted toward the driver which is an old trademark BMW finally brought back after doing away with it in the previously mentioned E65 generation, everything feels right there for you. I've done some writeups here and there on it in obviously more extend, but thus far I'm very happy with it.

BMW has one major fault however and that is the corporate denial that there are regional differences. For years BMW was in denial about US gas quality and seemed content with replacing fuel pumps every few thousand miles - who cares that the customer saw more of the BMW garage than his own. My 335 was in the shop for three fuel pumps before my first scheduled service.

Then there is the denial about the poor streets in many parts of US and their incompatibilty with the 19 inch wheels and the LS tires fitted on 5 series M-Sport packages. Telling a customer that wheel and tire insurance is mandatory is absurd - fit wheels and tires that are more suitable to driving conditions in the countries where you sell your cars.

The 5 series is a great car and I'd have been in one were it not for the inability of BMW to recognize reality. BMW will have me back as a customer when/if I move back to Germany.

True, but I see it as a brand who charges a premium like M-B should have NEVER put that horrid trainwreck of an interior in the C. They did the same treatment to the GLK. However, yes, admitting then improving is by far the better option, and will obviously do much better for their business. People will buy Benzes, always, so for M-B it's better to crap on old customers who entrusted their designs and decisions than to crap on the prospects of future business. It's just, as an enthusiast, it annoyed me and was one reason why as a multi-returning customer, I for the first time in my somewhat relatively recently spawning Luxury-Car-buying life, looked elsewhere.

Perhaps they are really thinking of the C and GLK as entry level cars and don't expect repeat buyers in the US. The returning C owner will buy an E and the GLK owner will buy an M and so forth.

It's funny that you mention M-B's old mindframe and them saying that.... I miss that M-B. I wish M-B never allowed themselves to act like any other desperate corporate manufacturer. That arrogance, and snobbiness coming from the high ups was welcome, as long as they backed it up with untouchable products. That's the Mercedes I love. Unfortunately that "Scremmp era" totally killed off their ability to do so and get away with it with quality disasters, as you mentioned.

Every manufacturer lost its way at some point during that era.

Good point. It seems they've always kicked and screamed to add certain modern elements to cars that they found superfluous.... but then when they do add them, they go ***** to the wall almost overboard in order to make up for lost time (at least in design, IMO).

Germans do tend to overboard in design when they add stuff. Just look at some of the early cup holder designs - 29 moving parts and it wouldn't hold anything bigger than a thimble of water. If it broke it cost a gazillion dollars to fix.

Very good point. The one thing I hated about my W212's was the suspension dynamics. Horrible. On smooth roads it rode sublime, like a Luxury Car. I totally had NO PROBLEMS with the fact that the car rolled like a boat on turns because I chose the straight line waftiness over tight turning. However, when the car got all choppy and insanely hard over rough patches, I felt it was unacceptable due to the fact that a car that acts like that should at the very least not exaggeratedly roll on turns.... in fact, a car that rides hard and rough over rough roads should have only one excuse: Tight and stiff handling.

I fully agree with you that M-B has had trouble mating "Sport" with their inherent Luxury, and IMO the Luxury has suffered. I feel BMW does a much better job at mating the two as coming from where I did I think the handling to be still quite sporty and the ride to be very comfortable, HOWEVER, BMW purists who are kind of like the "me" of BMW (i.e coming from that side as "purists") hate how soft the new BMW's are and feel that the softness has totally sacrificed what used to be precise and connected handling.

Originally Posted by CEB

Before we beat up on MB too badly for the new grill design, remember that the emphasis in Europe is on pedestrian safety and we need to ask ourselves if the new front helps with that. It might.

Originally Posted by CEB

Right. Each manufacturer does something right and IMO they should stick to that.

Back in the70's it was easy. Audi was the sporty version of VW with quattro, BMW was the affordable sports car with the 1600, 2002 etc while MB was the luxury tank with the 280S. If you wanted a cheaper Benz then you got a 180 or a 250 - but still the emphasis was on tank like luxury.

MB needs to learn that sport isn't just a label you hang on a car - it is a mindset of the customer and it is far easier to add luxury to a BMW than it is to add Sport to a MB.

Originally Posted by K-A

Ah yes, reminding me of the very reason why my beloved F10's front is as flat as a brick wall.

Originally Posted by K-A

I totally agree. I miss the days (when I wasn't even able to afford one of these cars) when an M-B was an M-B, a BMW a BMW, etc. As Top Gear's talking heads say: "These guys are so obsessed with each other they end up building the same cars".

And you're spot on. I don't think M-B "gets" that Sport is more than a marketing ploy, you have to truly engineer it into the basis of the car. I remember on MB Advisors I complained about M-B making all E's look "the same" via free Sport Packages (early days of W212), and they said "as a 'Sport Sedan' we feel....". WHAT?! "Sport Sedan"? A free "Sport kit" doesn't make this baby a Sport Sedan. She's wafty, floaty, comfy as hell and has an interior laid out like a logical lounge with couch, and a shifter stalk on the steering wheel. Hardly a "Sports Sedan" and that isn't a diss to it at all... it is/should be a proud Luxury Sedan!

M-B are still the kings of logistics, if you ask me. My biggest complaints on my BMW is on simple things that either are two complex or fussy which M-B just kept smooth and simple.

Originally Posted by K-A

I totally agree. I miss the days (when I wasn't even able to afford one of these cars) when an M-B was an M-B, a BMW a BMW, etc. As Top Gear's talking heads say: "These guys are so obsessed with each other they end up building the same cars".

And you're spot on. I don't think M-B "gets" that Sport is more than a marketing ploy, you have to truly engineer it into the basis of the car. I remember on MB Advisors I complained about M-B making all E's look "the same" via free Sport Packages (early days of W212), and they said "as a 'Sport Sedan' we feel....". WHAT?! "Sport Sedan"? A free "Sport kit" doesn't make this baby a Sport Sedan. She's wafty, floaty, comfy as hell and has an interior laid out like a logical lounge with couch, and a shifter stalk on the steering wheel. Hardly a "Sports Sedan" and that isn't a diss to it at all... it is/should be a proud Luxury Sedan!

M-B are still the kings of logistics, if you ask me. My biggest complaints on my BMW is on simple things that either are two complex or fussy which M-B just kept smooth and simple.

Originally Posted by CEB

But hey, doesn't the E350 have toggle shifters on the steering wheel too? That makes it a sports car, right?

I got within inches of buying a 535xi M-Sport - all the way to the point where the dealer wanted me to sign a waiver for the wheel/tire insurance. The finance guy was "either you buy the warranty or you sign the waiver." That waiver was specific on the 19" wheels and the Ls tires.

Originally Posted by alsyli

To add to this, I think increasingly sophisticated technology allows different car makes to "meet in the middle" (offering both sport and luxury).

The other thing is that of course it's mainly a marketing ploy. You add "sport" to the name, slap on bigger wheels and a rear spoiler (it's getting hard to find a C- or E-class in LA w/o one), and voila! People lap it up. You have a "sport" sedan. Do 99% of owners actually drive in a manner where the larger tires or retuned suspension make an objective difference? Doubt it (even though there may be a huge subjective diff). I know I myself don't. All I know is that the 330i w/ sports package I once had as a loaner was so unbelievably harsh (not firm, but genuinely harsh) that I actually thought it was completely unacceptable in a luxury car and was astonished that so many people purchased BMWs w/ this.... Again, it's all marketing....

It's the same thing w/ BMW and how it offers all those "individualization options." It's impossible to find a stripped-down BMW on the lot. Does BMW *really* give a care about what an individual wants b/c of some superior corporate ethos? No, of course not. They know that offering individualization options allows them to charge major $$$.

I do agree that BMWs tend to have overly fussy controls. There is still a certain (however tenuous) operational honesty to MB that I find endearing.

And the really bluff front ends means that MB is bringing back the inline 6! Which was never as good as the BMW versions, I imagine, but even the current BMW 6s have been emasculated (in terms of sound)....

Originally Posted by K-A

Agreed with much of this. It's funny, that harshness you experienced with the E90 is what guys come to BMW Forums to complain about BMW LOSING.

Originally Posted by K-A

Man, that would be awesome if M-B brought an I6 back!

Originally Posted by K-A

That's an interesting point about the blunt fronts being due to an I6. Never looked into or thought about that. I would be SO interested to hear and feel how M-B's I6 would sound. I've never been a "V6" fan as I'm more a V8 guy at heart, but I6's are a whole different beast.

Originally Posted by K-A

Lol. Precisely.... err, at least that's what the marketing guys hope we think. Even if said paddle shifters take about a minute to engage into gear.

Wow, I had no idea you got that close! Is that waiver something only BMW does, or do M-B and the like do it? I guess I was too trapped up in the euphoria and already used up my mental capabilities when fishing out the deal I got on mine, to even pay attention before I signed the financiers papers (which as is tradition for me: "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, thank you").