threeMBs

I have friends (management level) at two MB dealers 100 miles apart. Most E-class buyers know nothing about this site or how much discount on Es they can negotiate due to (unknown to them) MB E specific incentives. Most E-class buyers are thrilled with a 10% (or even less) discount. So there's no reason for MB to lower MSRP. In fact since 2010 it has risen significantly - a fully loaded (extremely well) 2014 E350's MSRP is into lower $70s now. By comparison, a loaded (for 2010 "standarts") 2010 E550's MSRP was "only" into high $60K, but still under $70K.

GregTR

My assumption is based on evidence. Some of the posters use the "MB shoud do this" or "MB should do that" based on absolutely no evidence. They feel that MB should be lowering the MSRP why exactly? What would it do? What would be the benefit to MB? They did lower the MSRP, it's called a CLA. All I see in this thread is people discussing how MB is screwing everything up by discounting their cars and discounting it via short term manufacturer to dealer incentive. But I have yet to see anyone back this claim or offer an alternate solution with hard evidence that it is better than the current system.

I agree that the price of a car has very little to do with marginal cost of said vehicle. But the discounts people ultimately get will depend on two things: a) the discount MBUSA is willing to give via dealer incentives or via subvented lease money factors and inflated residuals and b) the discount a given dealer is willing to give between MSRP and invoice less dealer holdback and possible volume incentives.

The difference between invoice price and MSRP is 6%, dealer holdback is another 3% so the most a dealer can give without losing money is 9%. Anything more than that has to come from MBUSA. Unless MBUSA is giving 16% discount I don't see anyone getting 25% on a W212, ever, it just makes no financial sense to a dealer. Maybe I'm naive or maybe I suck at math but unless some insider has better numbers to back up their claims I'm pretty sure these numbers are close to reality.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. Saying "I know 2 other guys who got 20% off" or "I wouldn't buy one unless it was 20% off MSRP and they threw in free detailing for life" is not evidence. You picked two sample points out of 200k+. Good for you! I'd call it statistically insignificant.

What most of us tend to forget that we're already getting a significant discount from MB here in the US relative to other parts of the world. And the irony is that people drive these cars for the "Image" in the US where it's the cheapest to get an MB while in Europe they don't give a crap about that as they drive around in their high priced A-class hatchbacks. I just find amusing how these discussions go here. I'm just calling people out, because the BS is pretty deep here and some might "assume" that just because someone has 1k+ posts on this board they actually know what they're talking about other than typing up opinion pieces....

Thank you! My point exactly.

pcsgrp

Wow, I didn't think my posting would raise such a discussion. I was just trying to figure out how to get the best price on my second MB. Since I am retired, I expect these cars might be the last new cars I every purchase. Kind of a chilling thought but I tend to keep my cars well over 100k miles and for years. That is one of the things I like about the E class, they seem to be well made and while they don't have all the bells that an Acura or Lexis may have, they have most of what I would want or need. As far as maintenance....I love working on cars but at this point in my life I don't have a problem letting someone else do it. Even on my current American made car, I only change the oil and filters and perhaps brakes.....not only do things not go wrong often but if they do, I don't have the tools, skills or mindset to undertake some computer related or sensor problem. Boy, I wish I had my 64' chevy with that great 327 small block !! I got a fair price on the 2013 last January and I believe that everyone should make a little money so I am not one of those "negotiators" who has to win for the sake of winning. Life isn't worth the BS and worry...............I did that enough in the working world I don't need to do that in my retirement. All I want is a well made car that I can drive for a long time (I no longer like to fly and will never use my 800k frequent flyer miles because I find pure pleasure in driving, always have) get at a reasonable price, have good service available (my dealer has an outstanding service department) and don't mind paying a little more to have a car that always works! Hence my problem. The MB world is outside my comfort zone of knowledge. Not that I feel intimidated but going into a decisions like this without being armed with all the facts is not the way I do things. What frustrates me is that a E sedan is substantially less expensive then a wagon due to the incentives and I believe the dealer has limited wagons so they can try to push for a higher price. I don't have much issue with them doing this because it is basic economics...supply and demand. However, when I see a wagon sitting around the dealership for several months I know they want to move it and I just want to get a good, fair price on it. After all, when you annualize the cost, an up front cost of a few extra bucks doesn't kill you. If it did, we would be at the Kia dealership not a MB one.

edspider

The dealer gave me the $5000 dealer holdback and discounted the car $3000. But I had to pay sales tax on the $5000 because it wasn't shown as a discount to the selling price like the $3000 was. The MRSP was 68. I had no trade, so the Illinois tax is huge cost of buying a car. But at least the tags are only $200 per year.

I felt the deal was good for my market and for a custom ordered car.

GregTR

You think like most customers think and there is nothing wrong with that. I think you have all the information you will get to make a fair deal on an E-wagon or an ML. The reason why the E-wagon is not discounted like the E-sedan is simple: The e-wagon has no competitors. And the only people who buy it will buy it no matter what, even at a $7K premium over an ML. Because that is what we want. A mid-size sedan with a huge trunk. Not an SUV that is neither sporty nor has utility. The Only reason the ML's cargo volume is bigger on paper is because they measure cargo volume on SUVs to the roof line while on wagons it's only to the window line. Go look in both trunks at the dealer, try to fit some luggage in there and you will get it.

Bottom line is the wagon demands a premium over the sedan that is way more than the difference in MSRP.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/12...est-wagon.html

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n_first_drive/

If I just wanted the utility I would have gotten an Acura MDX for $20K less than the e-wagon. Hell I probably should have bought a Honda Odyssey for $30k less...

thenew3

The availability of wagons and discounts on them will vary by region. Where I am, I see many e wagons on the roads (not just W212 but many previous generations as well).
In fact a quick check of the local dealer inventory shows currently 7 E wagons on their lot including an E63 AMG S (seems each year they have at least one E63 AMG wagon in their inventory).

I got my 2013 E wagon back at the end of April for about $10k off MSRP. We were evaluating either a GL, ML, GLK, E wagon or E sedan. We were replacing a wagon that was totaled in an accident and wanted the flexibility to carry large loads. We tested the cargo capacity of the ML vs E wagon and turns out both has about the same amount of cargo capacity. The 3rd row seats in the wagon was a bonus for when we have those play dates with the kids friends.
The dealer wasn't able to discount the GL or ML much, but we got the $10k off the E wagon fairly easily (only about 5 emails back and forth to come to the agreed price). I think we would've been able to knock another $1k or so if we tried really heard, but dealers need to make a living as well, and I plan to purchase more from them in the future so wanted to establish a good relationship.

I think if you are in an area where wagons are popular, dealers should be able/willing to give discounts similar to the sedans.

bigigg

Obviously everyone wants a great deal when buying a new car.. but some people are getting a little carried away. I would never expect a dealer to give me 20% off, if you guys are getting that.. God Bless! I believe this is the wrong car brand to be nickel and diming. Tomorrow I'm picking up an ML 350 for my wife, discount was about 10.5%. Im happy with the lease #'s and most important Im excited for my wife, she has always wanted an ML. The day I start losing sleep over my purchase, or "did I get a good enough deal", is when i'll stop driving Mercedes.

threeMBs

Exactly, bigigg.

fintail

Well, we could always just ask for people to post pics of their invoice. Edit out the names and other incriminating details of course, but show the numbers. Anyone up for that?

The cheap US market makes sense in a way - these mfrs have figured out that they can sell (I am putting this crudely) 1000 cars with $100 profit per car, or 3000 cars with $50 profit per car. Even in the devolving globalized economy, the US remains a make-or-break point for many companies.

I only got something like 12-14% off my bluetec, which I was very happy with - I live in an expensive area, no doubt the dealer has huge overhead, and I didn't want to shop every dealer within 200 miles to save $500. Compared to what an E cost 20-25 years ago (yes, I know the 124 is a tank, et al), I think it these cars are a bargain.

GregTR

I didn't question whether someone got a significant discount or not, I was stating that deep discounts like that are the exception rather than the norm.

First of all, anyone who traded-in a car should not apply. It is standard practice to inflate one balloon and deflate another to make the deal look more appealing. I remember when I bought my first new vehicle they were telling me that they're giving me more for my trade-in but because of that they can't discount the new car but I'm still coming out ahead because I save more on sales tax. Too bad that in TX you pay sales tax on the differential so it actually doesn't matter one bit whether you're getting $10K for your trade in and paying $30K for the new car or getting $12k for the trade-in and paying $32k for the new car, the sales tax will be still 6.25% of the $20k. So as soon as you put a trade-in into the equation you just made the deal unique and not applicable to anyone else because the trade-in value is a variable that nobody outside of the dealership has control over. You can say "dealer A gave me $2k more for my trade so I went with them even though they charged me $1k more for the car" but you could just as well say "both dealers offered me the same trade in, but dealer A sold the new car for $1k less". As far as money goes it's the same transaction for you. But when it comes to bragging you can brag more if you deflate the trade-in and pretend you got more money off the new car.

Second, If you did anything other than a cash deal or brought your third party financing you could have left just as much in the F&I office as you left at the sales office. They can make money on financing by bumping the interest rate or the money factor and you wouldn't even know it.

Third, if you bought anything, such as extended warranty or wheel protection, you can't talk about your deal either because you allowed the dealer to make a profit somewhere outside of the sale of the car making your deal more complex and more profitable as a whole package for the dealer.

It's easy to get 14% off MSRP if you let the dealer stack on a half a point or an entire point on your interest rate and you let him sell you a service contract for $500 off MSRP. The deal as a whole will still be profitable for the dealer yet you walk away feeling like a champ when in reality you're just a chump.

But ultimately it gets back to my original question:

fintail

Maybe your newest diatribe answers your question. People compare, because nobody wants to be a "chump". If someone is happy with what they paid, then it shouldn't matter - but in an age of information overload, comparing is natural. It might be silly, but it is also silly to compose long winded novels crying about it.

No doubt dealers pull all kinds of wheel package and inflated maintenance tricks, but I'd assume most who take the time to participate here would be aware of those schemes. I like to think the avid participants and brand enthusiasts wouldn't be those who pay MSRP + mop & glo and walk away smiling.

And pretty much any deal is going to be "profitable", no matter how much of a discount was given. Although it seems IT people, engineers, and teachers seem to think they know it all, these dealers usually know how to stay in the black.

PeterUbers

pre-tax on my very nicely loaded 550 was $67k in june 2013 on pre order, sticker was $77k

P1, full driving assist, parktronic, 110ac, extra rear side airbags, palladium color, active seats, keyless go, split fold rear seats, lighting package

threeMBs

Almost 13% off on a pre-ordered 550 (not 350 mind you) is an excellent deal.

Of course it was probably due to the two defective "packages" that are not "normally" included with MB cars.

pcsgrp

"If I just wanted the utility I would have gotten an Acura MDX for $20K less than the e-wagon. Hell I probably should have bought a Honda Odyssey for $30k less... "


This from a very wise person! I really like the E class even with the electronic steering and all the other little things people don't like. I have owned BMW and even Pegout and they were all hands above the American cars I owned in terms of quality and pleasure of driving. I rented a peugot 505 in Spain a long time ago so I got one here. Huge difference between the two with the US version about 75% of what I remembered it was in Spain. It didn't matter, I still drove it for 225,000 miles and the only thing I did was change the oil, put on tires, replaced the front pads twice and a fuel level float in the tank. I just like the way the cars from Europe are made. My Asian cars are great until around 90k miles and then the accessories seem to cause problems. The ford I current own ( a fusion sport) is a great vehicle. It is comfortable, fast and very reliable and while it is about he same size as a E class, the big issue for us is the pass thru opening when you put down the 60/40 splits in the back. The opening in the ford is about 8 inches wider overall and a good 6 inches higher. That is a huge difference which allows us to carry both our bikes inside the car along with enough stuff for a month of vacation. Unfortunately the E class doesn't have that size of an opening when you put the seats down so it is just tight for us and we have to travel with folding bikes, which are ok but not if you go on long rides or in an area with a lot of hills. So, when you combine the desire to hump stuff around and that I really like the way the E class drives, in particular on long trips, I want one. Now just to get the best deal

PeterUbers

agreed on all counts!

MB finally delivered a couple working packages thank goodness.

K-A

If someone doesn't care about paying up, then by all means pretend that huge discounts on these cars aren't the norm. Yes, M-B's shouldn't essentially be about nickle-and-diming, however the culture of the W212 via how it's been treated by M-B has introduced a very "bargain basement" nature to it. Merely browsing this forum, going to sites like Townhalltalk, seeing what Dealers Email out to their registered clientele, talking to competing dealers about what M-B offers in pricing VS their competing model, etc., leads me to believe that if you aren't getting at least near 20% off on a continuously discount-heavy car like an E350 Sedan, then you're not getting the best deal you can (and I know plenty of people with E350's who don't know about message boards, aren't "car people" and still score lease deals not much higher than what some sucker would pay for a loaded Camry). Of course, that's just stating the *possible*, some might think their time or attention is worth more than 1,2,5,10% in discount and just pay what they pay. But believe me, nobody in their right mind is paying near MSRP for an E350 Sedan, if they do, they got taken. Isn't the reason people spend time here for research first and foremost? What better way than to save money in that regard. If you like the E Class regardless of its perceived "prestige", then how largely it's discounted shouldn't bother you and you should take advantage of the fire-sales to get what you want at a great bargain.

GregTR

@K-A, couple of things

1) I have yet to see a deal that was 20% off on a W212 in this thread or any other that did not involve a trade-in which makes the whole point moot. I still stick with the original statement that you can expect to get all the manufacturer to dealer cash in any given month plus pay 5-6% off MSRP which would be essentially invoice price. Then you may be able to stack on USAA or loyalty or whatever else you as an individual might be eligible for but the large majority of people are not USAA nor members of the AMA or the ABA. My employer participates in the fleet program but they only participate for executive sales not for the employee purchase program. Peeons aren't eligible, unless you're a controller or higher up the chain you don't get it. None of these discounts combined with the current $5k cash add up to 20% off MSRP unless you're buying the cheapest e-class there is.

2) I love how you use "bargain basement" while talking about cars that cost twice what the average new car sells for. You're obviously delusional about what the average people drive or can afford if you think a W212 is it and everyone who buys a new Camry could have gotten an E-class. Maybe you should be a bit more aware what the 99% is doing, buying or can afford: http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/03/h...age-new-car-p/

3) You can lease a Camry for $189/month just as you can lease a W212 for $379/month. Both include limited options, dealer discount and a hefty down payment. If you put money down on a lease instead of sign&drive you're an idiot. The only thing MB has going for it is the higher residual relative to the "transportation appliance" Camry. MBUSA does not even offer subvented money factors or financing rates right now, they give massive dealer discounts instead. So to say that an E350 costs as much as a Camry is simply not true. Can you lease a W212 for what you could buy a Camry for? Maybe. But the overall cost over the term would be way more for an E-class than it would be for the Toyota. You can use Edmunds' True Cost to Own estimator to figure out what both of these cars really cost over 5 years. Then again, you don't care you never keep them that long so your TCO is even higher than that.

4) Again, I'm not saying that MSRP is what everyone is paying or should be paying for a new car. What I'm saying is that you're advertising false hope of 20%+ based on absolutely nothing other than the anecdotal evidence of 1 that included a trade out of a 2010 lease ages ago... I also know a guy who ordered a wagon the same time I did. He managed to get it for invoice price plus another $1k from the dealer holdback plus he's an attorney and got another $3500 off through ABA so on a $70K wagon he managed to get over 13% off. Is this what everyone should, or more importantly does, get? Nope, not even close. He had special circumstances of dealer battle going on and this particular dealer throwing everything at him to make him come back.

So all I'm saying is that people shouldn't feel taken if they didn't get 20% off their new W212 contrary to what you believe because most people won't get that deal, period.

2006_C350

If you get 15%-18% off you are getting an awesome deal. People who got 20% off more than likely got a demo, got a car with hundreds of test driven miles, or has purchased many cars from the dealer before. I got $9k off a $57.8k car, about 15.3% and I'm ecstatic.

Maybe I could have gotten 18% off but these dealers need to make some money too.

Very FEW people get 18%-20% off msrp.

bigigg

I wouldn't say your an idiot if you put money down on a lease.. If your able to do some cap cost reduction without breaking the bank, why not? You will pay less in the long run, saving on interest. Obviously you shouldn't be fooled with a low monthly payment because of cap cost. I'm doing "1 pay" on my wifes ML, I ended up saving over $2,000 over 30 month lease.

2006_C350

1 pay is a good idea IF you don't ever get in an accident where the car is a total loss.

GregTR

I should have worded it a bit more careful. Back in the day when money factors were down under 0.0005 it made zero sense to pay anything up front. Now when there is no more free money you have to look at whether the 4-5% you're saving on interest is more than the opportunity cost of the money being tied up in the car. The other problem with pre-paying or cap reduction is what happens if your car gets totaled in the first year of ownership? I'm not saying it happens a lot but it can certainly happen and you'd be out all that money. I much rather take the free GAP coverage and walk from the car than trying to run after my money. Then again, with current lease rates not being as lucrative as once they were I'm just doing conventional financing for my cars with zero down as 1.89% is almost like free money.

SoCal208

, Thank you, you said it all.

GregTR

And you and your dealers you spoke to would be wrong: https://mbworld.org/forums/5781298-post1.html

Unless there is a huge disparity between vehicles listed on Autotrader and actual vehicles being sold I would say the average E-class has about $8k worth of options on it, I would hardly call them the "cheapest". Time to get your head out of your butt and stop making hearsay BS assumptions.

T.H.Carrera

K-A's negative posts after posts are starting to really **** me off. While had the E it was the best as soon as he got f10 it become the worst car on the planet and now the non stop negativity.

I vote for permanent ban on him from this site.

GregTR

I find him entertaining...In a sick twisted kind of way...Plus it's always good fun to rebut to his utter nonsense with actual facts and data...