Raron

Gang,

I have never owned a diesel but am intrigued by the idea of an E350 Bluetec. Convince me why I should or should not do it!

A bit of background:
1) looking for a lux sedan to compliment 900hp 997TT and wife's Wrangler Unlimited

2) was originally looking at S class (last body), A8, 550i/750i because I wanted supreme luxury. The S seems to "mature" and boaty - we're in 30's. The A8 I would only want with the 4.0T which 2013's are in the high 50's. Would prefer to stay under $50k. 550i was impressive - particularly how the ride was magic carpet smooth yet it was very sporty steering/handling. But its been a while since I owned a newer MB so I keep coming considering an MB.

3) If this was my toy sedan I'd go E63, CSL63 or Panamera (and just raise budget). But as my relaxing car I am broadening my mind. In my own silly logic is ok if the sedan isn't uber fast - IF it has a good reason like diesel. Otherwise, I would expect my sedan to be the more powerful version. I am guessing Bluetec represents more intrinsic value to the owner than tangible or even experiential. But I'm wanting to confirm and learn more!

Why would one buy Bluetec?
Who has or currently owns one - tell me about your self and your experience

beshannon

Have you driven one?


What did you think?

Raron

Drove one over the weekend. It definitely went about its way in a deliberate methodical way. Felt vault tight - but then all e class do. Was interesting to hear the diesel sound in a lux car - but this is part of its character.

Felt torquey. Didn't feel too slow by any means. I suppose I understand the high torque and low 210 hp to be this... No matter how many people I put in the car it will accelerate the same. The 400lb-ft torque at under 2k will make the car unaffected. By the same token the low hp means it won't scream through gears either.

pamiboy

Wow ..... what an impressive set of cars to own. You seem to have already made up your mind about the E350 Diesel. Let us know what you bought.

YYZ-E55

How many miles/year will you drive it?

Raron

Quite the opposite. I lean toward looking for an E550 or saving $ on an E350 which is more plentiful and cheaper. But am intrigued by Bluetec. Trying to hear perspective from others to glean whether I might like the diesel ownership experience.

I will do probably 10k-12k per year on my sedan as it is one of 3 cars.

DC-IT

Based on your mileage you can expect to fill up every 2 weeks or 18 days.
The E350BT can easily drive for 600 miles per tank of Diesel.
My BT averages between 30~34 MPG no matter how hard I push it.

It's a great highway cruiser and very relaxing to drive and the torque is intoxicating!

However the BlueTec requires additional maintenance than a gasser as in addition to the normal oil and filter change you need to change the fuel filter and fill up AdBlue (Diesel Exhaust Fluid).

DerekACS

Having owned two versions of E Class with the 3.0L V6 diesel, perhaps I can offer you some feedback.

The E350BT is a wonderful highway cruiser. It has gobs of passing power and it will cruise for about 650-700 miles on one tank of fuel ! If the thought of passing by lots of gas stations without having to stop intrigues you, then maybe the E350BT is a good bet.

If you are simply looking for a luxury car to drive around the city, the E350BT may not be the best choice. This V6 diesel does have significant turbo lag, most evident when launching in city driving.

If cost were not a major concern to you, I would suggest you consider the new E250 Bluetec. This car has the twin-turbo 2.1L 4 cylinder diesel, a superb engine. The E250BT is even more fuel efficient than the E350BT, has almost as much power and feels faster off the line in city driving (negligible turbo lag). The E250BT steering feels lighter and more direct than the E350BT, it rides and handles better. The E250BT is also available with 4Matic, which may not be a major concern for you living in Texas.

If your budget is limited, then the E350BT would be worth considering.

Both E Class diesels are excellent cars. Your ultimate satisfaction really depends on how you intend to use them: the greater your mileage, the bigger your smile driving a Mercedes diesel !!!

Raron

Thank you all for the insight. I find it interesting:

1) that you say the E250 would cost more... I assume you mean because it must be new whereas the 350 can be purchased used?. But that would also mean more depreciation to be incurred on the new 250.

2) All of you have cited more quantitative reasons for Bluetec than qualitative or intrinsic. So I guess my theory is wrong. You don't own them to be different, to hear the horse and truck like chatter, for nostalgia harking back to MB of old etc.

YYZ-E55

Derek hinted at it, but it needs to be said black and white. Stoplight to stoplight, the E350BT has gobs of torque after you finish counting to three. The turbo lag really takes the fun out of it; jackrabbit starts are out of the question and left turns are sometimes a bit scary. The fanboys on here will jump in and defend the 3.0L but this is the truth - it's simply not that refined, but it's also not "rickety" enough to be nostalgic or charming; IMO it's simply annoying to drive (I have an ML350BT but have driven the E350BT for significant periods; the E350BT is better than the ML350BT due to RWD vs 4MATIC but still not good).

Having said that, the E350BT is an amazing highway cruiser with great fuel economy and everything else you'd expect from an E-Class - quiet, comfortable, solid, etc.

In short, it's a significant tradeoff in terms of performance (obviously) and it wouldn't be the E-Class I would choose as a stable mate for your collection. Whatever you end up with, try to find one loaded up with DISTRONIC, it's a worthy option.

Raron

Wow, left turns scary is a big statement LOL. Perhaps the ML is much slower off line due to being like 1k lbs heavier? It would be unacceptable for a sedan to be slow to merge or execute a swift left turn!

So you guys think E350 is best bang for buck? E550 is beast but for what you can really use on street and having stupid power at home I'm guessing E350 would suffice...

kash2014

i see you are in Dallas, check out texas cars direct, they are a little thin on e class' now with just 50 or so in stock, but low pressure, no haggle, and you test drive the car on your own

only open on weekdays though

good luck

DerekACS

#1: yes and yes.

#2: Having owned four MB diesels, I think the biggest appeal is the superior efficiency, the kick-in-the butt torque and the vast cruising range. But as YYZ-E55 pointed out, the E350BT does have significant turbo lag. Not the ideal car for city driving.

No, your theory is not wrong. Part of the appeal for owning a MB diesel is to be somewhat different from the main crowd. Owning a diesel does suggest perhaps a greater concern for the environment (by burning approx. 30% less fuel and emitting less CO2). MB diesel engines also have a great reputation for longevity and they have a generally higher resale value than a comparable gas engine model.

One measure of owner satisfaction is to ask the question: would you buy this car again ? Consumers Report recently reported the results of asking this question of the owners of many different brands and models. Guess which car category received the highest percentage of 'yes' answers : Mercedes E Class diesels !!!
88% said they would buy another Mercedes E Class diesel ! I guess I am one of the 88%.

Arrie

I don't know how you have experienced with your other foreign cars but when I went from a Chevy Tahoe to an Audi Q7 it seemed half of people on the same roads that I had driven for very many years suddenly turned idiots / haters towards me and my car. When I went from the Audi to the MB E 350 it seemed the idiot count went up to 70 - 80%. Suddenly everyone wants to race me. With the E350 there is not much you can do so you may be desiring that 550 on the trunk.


But the diesel is an awesome engine on the car but after hearing about the turbo lack I am very hesitant now to consider buying one. One of the most annoying things that a car can have is the delay with power output when the gas pedal has been applied. If the twin turbo fixes the issue on the E250 MB should use the same technology with the bigger 3.0 L engine on the E350. Severe turbo lack car I would not buy.

YYZ-E55

E250BT is much, much better! Minimal turbo lag for a diesel.

Trancebolt

IF you dont build turbo it wont use it, its not a supercharger. The turbo boost threshhold is just unique but once you get used to it.... it never 'lags' to deliver built boost ever. Its variable vane technology will always be using boost at all levels. It just does not BUILD up its 29 psi of boost in all rpm ranges. The VVT style turbos are designed to be used from 1.9-3L engines max, so it is straining the level of torque the garrett turbocharger was designed for.. hence the range for turbo to build.

There are flat spots in the peak tq/hp that are key to get used to driving in to build extra exhaust. Plus, the accel pedal itself has a truly unique range of pressures... It reads your foot so much differently than a c300, a e350 gas, acura, bmw 540 or anything else ive ever driven... It wants you to TELL It to run... Its redline is 4500 which is deceptively positioned on the gauge, (bmw has larger gauges) gives you an idea of how it prefers to be driven, 1600-2400 tq peak, 3400 hp peak (2012) Also, it auto shifts you up in manual if you hit 4500.. absolutely amazing machine to me

The new E250/Audis/BMW twin/2stage turbos are not more efficient at using turbo, but only at building it at all stages of driving. In fact, the actual speed of the car is calculated with a slower 1/4 mile time than the E350 bt...

Personally, the 3 liter has a more sturdy sound and feel to its engine than the new 2.1. The new 2 liter turbo charged engines(industry wide) feel and sound like its working as hard as it can..... Even when comparing a C300 vs a C250. Sure, same 0-60, slightly more MPG, yeah... but you feel the difference in the engine badly...

my honest opinion of having double digit mercedes and my dad working with them for 20 years, letting me drive many of their cars...


Now, for some numbers


Get a E350 Bluetec (rly a e300 btc.... might change my badge on the back actually.. really a 2950cc.. e550/63s are 6-7k i think) is the way to go. You get immediate power comparable to the E550, get to race around the city still above avg mpg for the C300 gas engines Ive driven, and you get butter smoothe acceleration (either in the forms of slow, growing speed or push you back in your seat pull off speed, getting hybrid gas mileage on the highway. Also while driving a monster with such refinement. IF you dont get a bluetec, get a 500. Dont go for the 350 gas


0-45 in 4.5; 0-60 report between 6.5-7.7 (esp/ac on), but the engine was designed to be efficient and properly powerful; not overpowered like the E550/E63. The 0-45 is how we drive most city miles. in traffic laden freeways or city streets i use S for the ability to feather the gas and break without the transmission reacting harshly. Using E for max acceleration and dragging out of gears.

18 MPG idle at drive thru with a/c on (constant)
20-25 City driving (depending on traffic)
30-40 highway everytime guaranteed. with as low as 25 miles driven on the fwy.
27.5 Average right now as of 30k miles.

Now, the E350 gas does 17-20 city, 19-27 highway and 22 average abouts (babying it always except the highway)

The E550 is even lower.Besides, the new facelift E class and the space-ship interior redesigns mercedes' is doing is terrible. grab a 2011-2013 E350/S350 Bluetec while you can.

DerekACS

The E250 is actually not only faster 0-30 mph, but it also feels faster in city driving than the E350BT. How can you claim that the twin turbo is 'not more efficient' when this engine is considerably more fuel efficient (according to both the EPA ratings and Transport Canada) and it has negligible turbo lag ?

As for the sounds of the 3.0L V6 compared to the 2.1L 4 cylinder, yes @ idle the V6 sounds more refined, but once underway the 2.1L does not 'sound like its working as hard as it can'. The growl on deceleration is very pleasing.

Driving both of these cars on the highway, there is very little difference in engine sound. At 60-80 mph cruising, it would be impossible for a passenger to discern that a diesel engine was under the hood of either car.

Raron

Trancepbolt and Derek,

Clearly you guys are diesel enthusiasts. Derek, I see you have owned several variety... Have you ever wished for the 550? What about ignorant passengers that wondered why your expensive MB was so loud ;-)

Back to driving, I didn't feel like the 350 was slow unless comparing to hard driving in gasoline cars. I did get the impression I would be part of a unique group of folks that defied the norm. Sort of like owning a 500E or 928 but different. You feel like you are driving a well kept secret. One thing that I noticed about your fleet Derek is that you have had several MB diesel not far apart from each other. If they are known for their longevity and charm why not hold on to them longer?

Trancebolt

Derek, I didnt say "not more efficient". I said it is "not more efficient at delivering boost, but more efficient at building it."

"As for the sounds of the 3.0L V6 compared to the 2.1L 4 cylinder, yes @ idle the V6 sounds more refined, but once underway the 2.1L does not 'sound like its working as hard as it can'. The growl on deceleration is very pleasing."

The idle, acceleration, initial 1-2 gear shift roughnes.... etc all noticeable on the lower liter engines.Higher pitch growls. Not just the diesels sir, i mean any variant of the lower liter fast engines.. c45/c63 and all the way down the line


"Clearly you guys are diesel enthusiasts. Derek, I see you have owned several variety... Have you ever wished for the 550? What about ignorant passengers that wondered why your expensive MB was so loud ;-)"

Actually the DB measures lower than the 550 while cruising and accelerating. Diesel enthusiast after driving one, yes; but i still need a 6.3 on the side... future plans

"Back to driving, I didn't feel like the 350 was slow unless comparing to hard driving in gasoline cars. I did get the impression I would be part of a unique group of folks that defied the norm. Sort of like owning a 500E or 928 but different. You feel like you are driving a well kept secret. One thing that I noticed about your fleet Derek is that you have had several MB diesel not far apart from each other. If they are known for their longevity and charm why not hold on to them longer?"

I entirely agree. It is a unique group of person who would drive a diesel luxury car of any brand. I have wished to keep every lease ive turned in, but when my dads 2011 bluetec went back around 1.5 years ago and he went to the new 350, the sadness on his face said it all. Get one and keep it. I plan on owning mine for ten years easy. Carrying me well into my mid 30s.

baldmike73

get the BT and then add a race chip if you want more power.

My GL350 arrives next week and as soon as i go past the break in period I will be adding this -
takes stock 240hp - 455tq and increases to 304hp - 584tq

then you will get the best of both worlds tq and close performance of the non BT cars -

Raron

Speaking of race chip that was my next question. Turbos usually are easy to mod and boost hp. Is that the case for the E350 Bluetec?

Will I be able to reach Diesel magazine about trucks and pickup on new tips to improve gas and performance ;-) LOL

Trancebolt

"get the BT and then add a race chip if you want more power.

My GL350 arrives next week and as soon as i go past the break in period I will be adding this -
takes stock 240hp - 455tq and increases to 304hp - 584tq

then you will get the best of both worlds tq and close performance of the non BT cars -"

Hes right, but that chip supposedly just tricks the engine into thinking not enough fuel is being used, so it sends more through the chambers.... Not much of a tune if you ask me. More of an exploit which likely will wear down parts more... Benz could have opened the floodgates more if they wished it. Thats the difference between MBZ and BMW; Bmw gives you as much power as they can in a car, and their drivers want immediate throttle response at the expense of a jolty ride. MBZ ony gives you what the chassis can deliver comfortably. You think that MBZ cant get another 30hp/45tq out of the engine? like the 535d.... they can.... Its intentional.


"Speaking of race chip that was my next question. Turbos usually are easy to mod and boost hp. Is that the case for the E350 Bluetec?

Will I be able to reach Diesel magazine about trucks and pickup on new tips to improve gas and performance ;-) LOL"

yes, i work in a metal fabrication shop in valencia and there are 4 or 5 big turbo diesel truck driving guys here who always ask me questions and stop to talk to me about it. Truly alot you can do to this engine... Also, its fixable unlike those ridiculous hybrids... In the apocalypse, your bluetec will last you a long time more than any gas engine, is actually fixable unlike a hybrid and you can refine vegetable oil or natural gas into diesel and stockpile mountains of it for the end of the world! lol....



IMO, the power is so smoothe that you dont even feel like the car is trying; even when flooring it. The same can be said of cars tested in manual/tiptronic/automatic and gaining damn near the same track times, proving that its all about feel. If you dont feel it, you wont get the performance your looking for, even if its there. So the only way to know is to drive them all in the same day.

As a businessman, I think that e550/e63s will simply entice me to speed off and around people too much.. You never know who your next client or interview will be with. Could be the guy you cut off, smashed out on and embarassed at a red light... or anything really. Your next girlfriends dad, etc..... The Bluetec line has the power to truly meet in the perfect middle of luxury sports sedans. (250/350 alike)

CarolinaBluetec

I spent 65,000 miles with my 2008 E320 Bluetec and I loved the car for all the reasons mentioned, but the torque was my favorite (and getting 34-36 MPG cruising at 80MPH). On the downside, the V6 had a history of turbo oil seal failure which at dealer rates was just south of a $4000 repair, it also tended to have an issue with carbon buildup in the intake. Much to Mercedes USA's credit, they did my seal repair and intake manifold replacement FOC even though it was out of warranty. If I could have gotten another new (or CPO) E320 or 350 without the AdBlue system, I would have bought it. I am now driving a CPO E350 (gas) that I purchased last week.

DerekACS

Yes, I am definitely a long time diesel enthusiast ! Why have I owned several ? Well, having spent a good part of my life in the auto industry, I am a bit of car nut, maybe diesel nut ?

I was reluctant to give up my 2013 E350BT, but several aspects of the E250BT made my decision easier:

1. E250BT comes with 4Matic for Canada
2. E250BT has very little turbo lag compared to E350BT
3. post face lift styling for E Class
4. E250BT is even more efficient and handles better than E350BT

Looking down the road a bit to the future W213, I do not care for new styling direction and the larger body shell that will be coming for MY2017. MY2015 will be the last year in which one can choose all of the options for W212. MY2016 will be the build out year in which options will be limited to one of two packages (Avantegarde for Canada).

No, I have never wished for an E550. Paying vastly more dollars to the oil companies is repugnant to me, together with burning A LOT MORE fuel !!!

None of my passengers have ever realized that they were being driven in a diesel engined car until I told them. MB diesels are not like the noisy tractor-like engines found in North American pick-ups !!!!!

Trancebolt

"On the downside, the V6 had a history of turbo oil seal failure which at dealer rates was just south of a $4000 repair, it also tended to have an issue with carbon buildup in the intake.

Read more: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w212/565967-e350-bluetec-should-i.html#ixzz3KllCabbo"

They fixed this before the 212 came out, and all reports of oil leaks and clogged intake flaps were related to people babying this engine beyond belief... its recommended by the service guys to give it italian tuneups from time to time....