Early vs Late vs Facelift W212 reliability
04-13-2018, 11:21 PM
#76
Super Member
What do you guys think of this one? Looks to have fold down seats, the bi-xenon headlamps (which are a must for me), and has the lane keep, driver awakeness, and blind spot monitor stuff (What is the difference between active and the non-active?), and it actually has the genuine leather. Black is my favorite, but this gray looks good too - I prefer the dark colors on the E-class.
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...6607/overview/
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...6607/overview/
04-13-2018, 11:24 PM
#77
Junior Member
Thread Starter
That was actually an E350, it was on my original top list since I was thinking of 350s but since I'm thinking of the 550 now it's relegated a bit lower. If those don't pan out, I'm reserving that as an option.
04-13-2018, 11:30 PM
#78
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2010 E63 AMG, 2003 E500
Have you test driven a 550 yet?
If not you should probably do that as soon as possible like someone else suggested.
You'll most likely stop looking at 350s after that.
If not you should probably do that as soon as possible like someone else suggested.
You'll most likely stop looking at 350s after that.
04-13-2018, 11:31 PM
#79
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Nope, I will be doing so tomorrow. I hadn't found any 550's around me, only 350's. I only was finally able to look at an E350 two weeks ago after being shown a C350 coupe instead.
04-13-2018, 11:42 PM
#81
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I noticed the 350 really winds out, like every one of them I drove when I keep it to the floor it's going about 75-80 mph before it shifts up to I guess 3rd? Do the 550's hold gears out that long? I don't find it problematic either way, I honestly went into looking at an E350 thinking it would be underpowered but both me and my friend agreed they felt very decent. I would not complain about driving a '12-'13 E350 as far as power goes. The '10-'11 was mostly good but there were moments where you could feel a lack of kickdown.
04-13-2018, 11:49 PM
#82
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2010 E63 AMG, 2003 E500
No, the 550 shouldn't wind out like that.
My E500 shifts smoothly into 3rd at 55 mph or so.
Pulls like a freight train - but I've done Sprint Booster, air intake mods, AMG exhaust, Eurocharged mid-length headers and ECU tune.
My E500 shifts smoothly into 3rd at 55 mph or so.
Pulls like a freight train - but I've done Sprint Booster, air intake mods, AMG exhaust, Eurocharged mid-length headers and ECU tune.
04-13-2018, 11:52 PM
#83
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Ok, works for me. This will be my first German car and first Mercedes, so I want to make sure I start off with a good one (both enjoyability and reliability). I wanted to ensure I don't make a pitfall and pick a model known for problems and then feel like swearing off the brand because of a bad one, if that makes sense.
04-14-2018, 12:00 AM
#84
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2010 E63 AMG, 2003 E500
Ok, works for me. This will be my first German car and first Mercedes, so I want to make sure I start off with a good one (both enjoyability and reliability). I wanted to ensure I don't make a pitfall and pick a model known for problems and then feel like swearing off the brand because of a bad one, if that makes sense.
These are great cars - find a good used one and it will bring you much happiness.
04-14-2018, 11:50 AM
#85
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14 550 sedan
I'm not sure I'm confident enough to go for tuning. A VW GTI was on my list previously and I was going to be a little leery of tuning that, and I know they have well known tunes and stuff.
From a driving experience does the older E550 feel more like it needs to wind out compared to the turbo 550? I imagine that would be the biggest immediate difference, the turbo probably has the more immediate response. Not sure it's worth the extra money and the '10 E550 seems to be equipped with a lot of nice options. I don't know that I have to have the active seats or the distronic, though they sound very cool in my head. I looked at a Volvo the other day, it was nice but it lacked that refinement and class feel that the E350's I looked at had in spades. Just something about Mercedes that feels more substantial and better, plus I enjoy the dead smooth operation. Never been in a car where at idle I had to check to make sure the engine was running it was so smooth/quiet. Trying to avoid being impulsive especially since I would be trading away the truck in my signature which is much more pricey than the E550 would be.
From a driving experience does the older E550 feel more like it needs to wind out compared to the turbo 550? I imagine that would be the biggest immediate difference, the turbo probably has the more immediate response. Not sure it's worth the extra money and the '10 E550 seems to be equipped with a lot of nice options. I don't know that I have to have the active seats or the distronic, though they sound very cool in my head. I looked at a Volvo the other day, it was nice but it lacked that refinement and class feel that the E350's I looked at had in spades. Just something about Mercedes that feels more substantial and better, plus I enjoy the dead smooth operation. Never been in a car where at idle I had to check to make sure the engine was running it was so smooth/quiet. Trying to avoid being impulsive especially since I would be trading away the truck in my signature which is much more pricey than the E550 would be.
If you're used to 350 power, a 550 from any year will be a substantial change to be honest. Also remember the 550 models usually come with more standard options than a 350 would have, so a 550 would not really be that much more expensive than an optioned 350. Definitely give the 550 a test drive before buying your next E, it might be worth it. A 2010 e550 would be a lovely car to daily drive. Family member of mine has a 2013 e350, it's just not the same when i get into that car haha
04-14-2018, 01:26 PM
#86
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1922 Ford Model T / no OBD
As always you will find reviews from members for whom the car is a toy they put their money in.
The perception that 1 or 2 seconds shaved during acceleration will get you to your destination is just too common.
Truth is that it is avoiding 20 minutes fuel stop on the trip that makes heck of the difference.
The 250 diesels come to US in 2014, but they are used for a decade in Europe. Not as robust as the diesels from 1980's, but hard to beat 40-60 mpg.
4-banger diesel will burn wide tires on 2-ton car. That is something you have to experience to believe.
The perception that 1 or 2 seconds shaved during acceleration will get you to your destination is just too common.
Truth is that it is avoiding 20 minutes fuel stop on the trip that makes heck of the difference.
The 250 diesels come to US in 2014, but they are used for a decade in Europe. Not as robust as the diesels from 1980's, but hard to beat 40-60 mpg.
4-banger diesel will burn wide tires on 2-ton car. That is something you have to experience to believe.
04-14-2018, 08:49 PM
#87
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2013 E350
I shopped in four states for a year before buying my 2013 E350, and in the process drove a number of years of 350's and 550's. I've had V8's most of my life, but I've never been a power monger. The engine I liked least was the 2010-11 E350 V6, but I could have lived with it. I found no virtue in the E550 engines vs. the 2012-14 V6, other than some irrelevant-to-me acceleration power. I have no need for or interest in gigantic horsepower. Others love it. Miles vary.
What turned me off to older 550's was what this thread started out being about: reliability and cost to repair. The airmatic suspension in the 550 did not feel significantly more comfortable to me, and the hissing and pumping simply reminded me that there was almost certain failure of this expensive component. In addition, I felt the multi-contour/dynamic seat was mainly an expensive gimmick, and which I literally felt was harder and less comfortable than the regular seat. I believe that's because of all the extra fans, motors, air bladders and tubing the multi-contour/dynamic seat has, at the expense of padding. Or maybe it's just my body size. The multi-contour/dynamic seat was partially non-functional on two of the 550's I drove, so that was another reliability flag for me.
I do like leather seats better than MBTex, and 550's usually come with leather standard.
Again back to the original topic of reliability, I believe it's generally acknowledged that turbo engines are more susceptible to problems than a NA engine, which to me was another strike against the 2012+ E550.
I wanted a Mercedes for high quality luxury, smooth sailing and pride, not for racing or power moves, nor for marginally useful but expensive to repair electronic gadgetry. I also wanted reliability and insurance against expensive repairs. I satisfied my needs with a CPO car and two additional years of CPO extension. There are many 2014 E350 CPO's out there and even some remaining 2013's, and most are very competitively priced against non-CPO E550's. Of course, if money is no object, then follow your dreams.
What turned me off to older 550's was what this thread started out being about: reliability and cost to repair. The airmatic suspension in the 550 did not feel significantly more comfortable to me, and the hissing and pumping simply reminded me that there was almost certain failure of this expensive component. In addition, I felt the multi-contour/dynamic seat was mainly an expensive gimmick, and which I literally felt was harder and less comfortable than the regular seat. I believe that's because of all the extra fans, motors, air bladders and tubing the multi-contour/dynamic seat has, at the expense of padding. Or maybe it's just my body size. The multi-contour/dynamic seat was partially non-functional on two of the 550's I drove, so that was another reliability flag for me.
I do like leather seats better than MBTex, and 550's usually come with leather standard.
Again back to the original topic of reliability, I believe it's generally acknowledged that turbo engines are more susceptible to problems than a NA engine, which to me was another strike against the 2012+ E550.
I wanted a Mercedes for high quality luxury, smooth sailing and pride, not for racing or power moves, nor for marginally useful but expensive to repair electronic gadgetry. I also wanted reliability and insurance against expensive repairs. I satisfied my needs with a CPO car and two additional years of CPO extension. There are many 2014 E350 CPO's out there and even some remaining 2013's, and most are very competitively priced against non-CPO E550's. Of course, if money is no object, then follow your dreams.
04-15-2018, 09:18 AM
#88
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2014 E550-sold 😩
I think by now you have heard just about everything to make an informed decision. Personally, I think you may be at the point of over-thinking your decision. Maybe I'm more impulsive, but I have owned 6 Mercedes Benz cars over the years. There is nothing wrong with the brand, so don't worry about getting turned off by making a purchase. If you don't do your due diligence with the specific car you are looking to buy and it turns out to be a dogged basket case, well that is on you.
The following 2 users liked this post by KEY08:
pierrejoliat (10-28-2020),
spclagent7 (04-30-2019)
10-23-2020, 11:53 PM
#89
Member
Vibration
The folks that are warning you of repairs and repair costs are doing that with your best interests at heart. For example the dealer diagnosed my car to need engine mounts. The total bill is around $1750 if they do it. A local indy wants around $1300. In my view they are both ridiculous. They both want around $350 to do the rear mount. You can buy the OEM part for under $100 and it's an hour job tops. And oh by the way the B service that I just had performed essentially an oil change, brake fluid change and cabin filter was $554. The next service will require plugs, air filters, transmission fluid change, and will break $1K. I remember when Lynn Swan had a Porsche turbo and it required a $1k service and everyone was floored. LOL So that gives you some idea what these folks are talking about.
Its why people on the S Class boards swear up and down that they would never own one out of warranty. Lets say some guy got the hots for a 2004 SL500 and picked one that had not been maintained well because it was a "good deal" and then had to go to the dealer for service. The R203's have ABC suspension, SBC brakes (brake by wire) and an intricate folding top. All of those items plus the run of the mill repairs could easily overwhelm the market value of the car. It would not that big of a challenge to rack up $10-15k in repairs.
Take a 2007 S550 it has an engine that has a wear issue with the cam shaft mechanism, The transmission control units are prone to failure and it has the airmatic suspension.
Trust me I am probably one of the cheapest people on this board and I picked my car because it was fairly well depreciated, it was maintained by the book, and the W212's are solid cars so the risk of a big overwhelming bill is reasonably low (not nonexistent though if my transfer case goes belly up it will be a bad day and it has happened on this chassis). Some of the V8's have airmatic which will add to your risk. After market struts are about $600 a pop. Its an easy install as far as I can tell.
cetialpha5 gave you a good list of common problems I would add blower motors to that list. I have seen more that one replaced including my car.
Regarding the transmissions prior to 2014 they had the 7g tronic in 2014 they went to the 7g tronic plus . In theory the plus should be smoother shifting and more efficient. Here is the posting of one particularly unhappy owner of a 2014 E550
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...50-4matic.html
Part of the reason I believe the W212's to be more reliable is because during the early 2000's Mercedes reliability kind of sucked and they are trying to get back in the game. Having said that the introduction of the W205 wasn't very good. Years ago Mercedes were much more reliable than American cars. It's how I ended up here but that is a story for another day.
So it really comes down to your own personal financial threshold. Some people like predictable but potentially higher costs associated with depreciation and warranty's. In general the extended warranties are a good value. Others are more willing to role the dice in what they might perceive to be an educated fashion. But none of them are going to be a Honda when it comes to operating costs. But a Honda doesn't begin to offer the pleasure of driving one of these cars either.
Its why people on the S Class boards swear up and down that they would never own one out of warranty. Lets say some guy got the hots for a 2004 SL500 and picked one that had not been maintained well because it was a "good deal" and then had to go to the dealer for service. The R203's have ABC suspension, SBC brakes (brake by wire) and an intricate folding top. All of those items plus the run of the mill repairs could easily overwhelm the market value of the car. It would not that big of a challenge to rack up $10-15k in repairs.
Take a 2007 S550 it has an engine that has a wear issue with the cam shaft mechanism, The transmission control units are prone to failure and it has the airmatic suspension.
Trust me I am probably one of the cheapest people on this board and I picked my car because it was fairly well depreciated, it was maintained by the book, and the W212's are solid cars so the risk of a big overwhelming bill is reasonably low (not nonexistent though if my transfer case goes belly up it will be a bad day and it has happened on this chassis). Some of the V8's have airmatic which will add to your risk. After market struts are about $600 a pop. Its an easy install as far as I can tell.
cetialpha5 gave you a good list of common problems I would add blower motors to that list. I have seen more that one replaced including my car.
Regarding the transmissions prior to 2014 they had the 7g tronic in 2014 they went to the 7g tronic plus . In theory the plus should be smoother shifting and more efficient. Here is the posting of one particularly unhappy owner of a 2014 E550
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...50-4matic.html
Part of the reason I believe the W212's to be more reliable is because during the early 2000's Mercedes reliability kind of sucked and they are trying to get back in the game. Having said that the introduction of the W205 wasn't very good. Years ago Mercedes were much more reliable than American cars. It's how I ended up here but that is a story for another day.
So it really comes down to your own personal financial threshold. Some people like predictable but potentially higher costs associated with depreciation and warranty's. In general the extended warranties are a good value. Others are more willing to role the dice in what they might perceive to be an educated fashion. But none of them are going to be a Honda when it comes to operating costs. But a Honda doesn't begin to offer the pleasure of driving one of these cars either.
Thanks all for the thoughts, I used the day to look at a few different cars. I'll summarize each one briefly so I can get a better feel for whats good/bad and what to look for and avoid.
2010 E350 4Matic with around 67k miles for $16,750. I liked the low price on this one (weeks ago I looked at a '14 E350 4Matic that was $25k) and it looked good and had a decent service history. It was at a Lexus dealer known for good customer service, so I checked it out. Everything worked well on it, but at idle it vibrated quite a lot. About like I'd expect from a lower end car with a 4 cylinder. As it got going, it was smooth on the road and no issues. Come to a stop again, the vibration comes back and this is noticeably the engine vibrating. The sales person I worked with suggested opening it up to clear out any gunk, I happily obliged. I was rolling at a lower speed and the kickdown felt pretty good from there. Later on the highway I was going maybe 35-40 and nailed it again and this time it was pretty underwhelming. By this I mean I like a powerful car and at this moment it felt a bit sluggish. It climbed no problem but felt like it didn't kickdown mostly due to only being 268 HP in a car that size. I don't think it had an issue there, just that's all the oomph it has. It did idle smoother after that, but still vibrating more than I'd expect. Another sales person tried to tell me "it is a used car..." which I scoff at, I'm pretty sure that motor should be very smooth even with 100k miles more on it...
They recommended me look at a GS350, it was a few years newer maybe a '13 or '14. The manual mode was great on it unlike the Mercedes, though I admit it's not critical to me for how I want to drive the E350. Heated/cooled seats, all seemed pretty good. It was much smoother idling than the '10 E350, but it had more road noise and was not as refined feeling (It was also an F Sport). I liked a lot about it, the power was great but the price was a good bit more than the Mercedes and I don't care for the exterior looks nearly as much.
Lastly, I looked at a 2012 E350 4Matic for $21k and around 47k miles. Oddest of all, I saw BlueEfficiency badges on the fenders. In my head I'm thinking "Is this a diesel? I swore it was just a normal E350" and then saw it was a gasoline engine. I have never seen that badge before on an E-class, not sure if I'm just not observant or if only some have that. The power felt good on this one, I was pretty pleased with it. It had pretty warped front rotors and they made a lot of noise as I braked. Unlike the 2010, this one was very smooth at idle. I turned the blower fan down and genuinely thought "Does this have auto start stop?" and looked down and saw about 600 RPM idle. Lovely! This is what I would expect from a Mercedes. It also had the active assist stuff (Lane departure, driver awakeness, and blindspot monitoring), normally I don't care about that stuff as I'm an enthusiast when it comes to driving but unlike some I won't complain to have those cool features. I felt it do its job as I slightly drifted in a lane, very cool.
One negative of both E-class though, no fold down rear seats. I could swear the '14 I looked at had that, and I assumed all E-class had fold down rear seats. Is this not the case? As silly as it may seem, that's a big one for me so I can haul larger items in the car. I'm giving up a truck which I don't need due to its large size and gas thirst, but I still need a car that can haul a fair amount of bulky large things. I hate SUVs so that is completely ruled out. A wagon would be fine, but those are hard to come by in general and especially in E-class (Plus they are always more expensive). I like to be at a lower price point since this is a second car for me (I intend to sell my Maxima and truck, so I would have my Z06 and the Mercedes only). Were fold down rear seats an option on the 2010-2013 E350 or is that something that was only available on '14+ E-classes?
Also, is there a way when using the paddles to actually force manual mode? The only way I saw to do anything was to pull down and I'd see D6, D5, etc. and if I just went up it would go D5, D6, D. Is there no M mode to force manual shifts only? Also is there no way to manually shift into 7th gear via the paddles? I agree with sentiments about Honda reliability and their excitement. To be honest, I like Lexus quite a bit but their styling doesn't speak to me as much otherwise I respect them a great deal. The Lexus sales person suggested a late model Avalon, I've seen their interior they are surprisingly nice. But the design language again does not speak to me at all. Speaking of design language, I actually normally really like Audi A8's (as well as most flagship luxury sedans) but I saw what had to be a very new one today and genuinely thought "That's a weird looking A4". Though me personally, I have a harder time telling the newest C, E, and S classes apart. The older ones where much more distinct.
2010 E350 4Matic with around 67k miles for $16,750. I liked the low price on this one (weeks ago I looked at a '14 E350 4Matic that was $25k) and it looked good and had a decent service history. It was at a Lexus dealer known for good customer service, so I checked it out. Everything worked well on it, but at idle it vibrated quite a lot. About like I'd expect from a lower end car with a 4 cylinder. As it got going, it was smooth on the road and no issues. Come to a stop again, the vibration comes back and this is noticeably the engine vibrating. The sales person I worked with suggested opening it up to clear out any gunk, I happily obliged. I was rolling at a lower speed and the kickdown felt pretty good from there. Later on the highway I was going maybe 35-40 and nailed it again and this time it was pretty underwhelming. By this I mean I like a powerful car and at this moment it felt a bit sluggish. It climbed no problem but felt like it didn't kickdown mostly due to only being 268 HP in a car that size. I don't think it had an issue there, just that's all the oomph it has. It did idle smoother after that, but still vibrating more than I'd expect. Another sales person tried to tell me "it is a used car..." which I scoff at, I'm pretty sure that motor should be very smooth even with 100k miles more on it...
They recommended me look at a GS350, it was a few years newer maybe a '13 or '14. The manual mode was great on it unlike the Mercedes, though I admit it's not critical to me for how I want to drive the E350. Heated/cooled seats, all seemed pretty good. It was much smoother idling than the '10 E350, but it had more road noise and was not as refined feeling (It was also an F Sport). I liked a lot about it, the power was great but the price was a good bit more than the Mercedes and I don't care for the exterior looks nearly as much.
Lastly, I looked at a 2012 E350 4Matic for $21k and around 47k miles. Oddest of all, I saw BlueEfficiency badges on the fenders. In my head I'm thinking "Is this a diesel? I swore it was just a normal E350" and then saw it was a gasoline engine. I have never seen that badge before on an E-class, not sure if I'm just not observant or if only some have that. The power felt good on this one, I was pretty pleased with it. It had pretty warped front rotors and they made a lot of noise as I braked. Unlike the 2010, this one was very smooth at idle. I turned the blower fan down and genuinely thought "Does this have auto start stop?" and looked down and saw about 600 RPM idle. Lovely! This is what I would expect from a Mercedes. It also had the active assist stuff (Lane departure, driver awakeness, and blindspot monitoring), normally I don't care about that stuff as I'm an enthusiast when it comes to driving but unlike some I won't complain to have those cool features. I felt it do its job as I slightly drifted in a lane, very cool.
One negative of both E-class though, no fold down rear seats. I could swear the '14 I looked at had that, and I assumed all E-class had fold down rear seats. Is this not the case? As silly as it may seem, that's a big one for me so I can haul larger items in the car. I'm giving up a truck which I don't need due to its large size and gas thirst, but I still need a car that can haul a fair amount of bulky large things. I hate SUVs so that is completely ruled out. A wagon would be fine, but those are hard to come by in general and especially in E-class (Plus they are always more expensive). I like to be at a lower price point since this is a second car for me (I intend to sell my Maxima and truck, so I would have my Z06 and the Mercedes only). Were fold down rear seats an option on the 2010-2013 E350 or is that something that was only available on '14+ E-classes?
Also, is there a way when using the paddles to actually force manual mode? The only way I saw to do anything was to pull down and I'd see D6, D5, etc. and if I just went up it would go D5, D6, D. Is there no M mode to force manual shifts only? Also is there no way to manually shift into 7th gear via the paddles? I agree with sentiments about Honda reliability and their excitement. To be honest, I like Lexus quite a bit but their styling doesn't speak to me as much otherwise I respect them a great deal. The Lexus sales person suggested a late model Avalon, I've seen their interior they are surprisingly nice. But the design language again does not speak to me at all. Speaking of design language, I actually normally really like Audi A8's (as well as most flagship luxury sedans) but I saw what had to be a very new one today and genuinely thought "That's a weird looking A4". Though me personally, I have a harder time telling the newest C, E, and S classes apart. The older ones where much more distinct.
mounts & possibly from the transmission mount.
if you're shopping these pre-owned 2010-2013
E's, you want to have a dealer inspection of
the 3 mounts & build in replacement as part of your deal.
the motor has to be REMOVED to replace the right engine mount which is why the replacement is so expensive at +/-$2000!
Also, faded wood trim is an issue from 2010-2011 / MB changed wood trim suppliers who
forgot to add UV protectant in the wood finish.
To replace badly faded wood trim means spending $2700 on a new 16-piece kit + 3-4
hours dealer installation...
10-24-2020, 01:23 AM
#90
Member
Vibration
The folks that are warning you of repairs and repair costs are doing that with your best interests at heart. For example the dealer diagnosed my car to need engine mounts. The total bill is around $1750 if they do it. A local indy wants around $1300. In my view they are both ridiculous. They both want around $350 to do the rear mount. You can buy the OEM part for under $100 and it's an hour job tops. And oh by the way the B service that I just had performed essentially an oil change, brake fluid change and cabin filter was $554. The next service will require plugs, air filters, transmission fluid change, and will break $1K. I remember when Lynn Swan had a Porsche turbo and it required a $1k service and everyone was floored. LOL So that gives you some idea what these folks are talking about.
Its why people on the S Class boards swear up and down that they would never own one out of warranty. Lets say some guy got the hots for a 2004 SL500 and picked one that had not been maintained well because it was a "good deal" and then had to go to the dealer for service. The R203's have ABC suspension, SBC brakes (brake by wire) and an intricate folding top. All of those items plus the run of the mill repairs could easily overwhelm the market value of the car. It would not that big of a challenge to rack up $10-15k in repairs.
Take a 2007 S550 it has an engine that has a wear issue with the cam shaft mechanism, The transmission control units are prone to failure and it has the airmatic suspension.
Trust me I am probably one of the cheapest people on this board and I picked my car because it was fairly well depreciated, it was maintained by the book, and the W212's are solid cars so the risk of a big overwhelming bill is reasonably low (not nonexistent though if my transfer case goes belly up it will be a bad day and it has happened on this chassis). Some of the V8's have airmatic which will add to your risk. After market struts are about $600 a pop. Its an easy install as far as I can tell.
cetialpha5 gave you a good list of common problems I would add blower motors to that list. I have seen more that one replaced including my car.
Regarding the transmissions prior to 2014 they had the 7g tronic in 2014 they went to the 7g tronic plus . In theory the plus should be smoother shifting and more efficient. Here is the posting of one particularly unhappy owner of a 2014 E550
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...50-4matic.html
Part of the reason I believe the W212's to be more reliable is because during the early 2000's Mercedes reliability kind of sucked and they are trying to get back in the game. Having said that the introduction of the W205 wasn't very good. Years ago Mercedes were much more reliable than American cars. It's how I ended up here but that is a story for another day.
So it really comes down to your own personal financial threshold. Some people like predictable but potentially higher costs associated with depreciation and warranty's. In general the extended warranties are a good value. Others are more willing to role the dice in what they might perceive to be an educated fashion. But none of them are going to be a Honda when it comes to operating costs. But a Honda doesn't begin to offer the pleasure of driving one of these cars either.
Its why people on the S Class boards swear up and down that they would never own one out of warranty. Lets say some guy got the hots for a 2004 SL500 and picked one that had not been maintained well because it was a "good deal" and then had to go to the dealer for service. The R203's have ABC suspension, SBC brakes (brake by wire) and an intricate folding top. All of those items plus the run of the mill repairs could easily overwhelm the market value of the car. It would not that big of a challenge to rack up $10-15k in repairs.
Take a 2007 S550 it has an engine that has a wear issue with the cam shaft mechanism, The transmission control units are prone to failure and it has the airmatic suspension.
Trust me I am probably one of the cheapest people on this board and I picked my car because it was fairly well depreciated, it was maintained by the book, and the W212's are solid cars so the risk of a big overwhelming bill is reasonably low (not nonexistent though if my transfer case goes belly up it will be a bad day and it has happened on this chassis). Some of the V8's have airmatic which will add to your risk. After market struts are about $600 a pop. Its an easy install as far as I can tell.
cetialpha5 gave you a good list of common problems I would add blower motors to that list. I have seen more that one replaced including my car.
Regarding the transmissions prior to 2014 they had the 7g tronic in 2014 they went to the 7g tronic plus . In theory the plus should be smoother shifting and more efficient. Here is the posting of one particularly unhappy owner of a 2014 E550
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...50-4matic.html
Part of the reason I believe the W212's to be more reliable is because during the early 2000's Mercedes reliability kind of sucked and they are trying to get back in the game. Having said that the introduction of the W205 wasn't very good. Years ago Mercedes were much more reliable than American cars. It's how I ended up here but that is a story for another day.
So it really comes down to your own personal financial threshold. Some people like predictable but potentially higher costs associated with depreciation and warranty's. In general the extended warranties are a good value. Others are more willing to role the dice in what they might perceive to be an educated fashion. But none of them are going to be a Honda when it comes to operating costs. But a Honda doesn't begin to offer the pleasure of driving one of these cars either.
Thanks all for the thoughts, I used the day to look at a few different cars. I'll summarize each one briefly so I can get a better feel for whats good/bad and what to look for and avoid.
2010 E350 4Matic with around 67k miles for $16,750. I liked the low price on this one (weeks ago I looked at a '14 E350 4Matic that was $25k) and it looked good and had a decent service history. It was at a Lexus dealer known for good customer service, so I checked it out. Everything worked well on it, but at idle it vibrated quite a lot. About like I'd expect from a lower end car with a 4 cylinder. As it got going, it was smooth on the road and no issues. Come to a stop again, the vibration comes back and this is noticeably the engine vibrating. The sales person I worked with suggested opening it up to clear out any gunk, I happily obliged. I was rolling at a lower speed and the kickdown felt pretty good from there. Later on the highway I was going maybe 35-40 and nailed it again and this time it was pretty underwhelming. By this I mean I like a powerful car and at this moment it felt a bit sluggish. It climbed no problem but felt like it didn't kickdown mostly due to only being 268 HP in a car that size. I don't think it had an issue there, just that's all the oomph it has. It did idle smoother after that, but still vibrating more than I'd expect. Another sales person tried to tell me "it is a used car..." which I scoff at, I'm pretty sure that motor should be very smooth even with 100k miles more on it...
They recommended me look at a GS350, it was a few years newer maybe a '13 or '14. The manual mode was great on it unlike the Mercedes, though I admit it's not critical to me for how I want to drive the E350. Heated/cooled seats, all seemed pretty good. It was much smoother idling than the '10 E350, but it had more road noise and was not as refined feeling (It was also an F Sport). I liked a lot about it, the power was great but the price was a good bit more than the Mercedes and I don't care for the exterior looks nearly as much.
Lastly, I looked at a 2012 E350 4Matic for $21k and around 47k miles. Oddest of all, I saw BlueEfficiency badges on the fenders. In my head I'm thinking "Is this a diesel? I swore it was just a normal E350" and then saw it was a gasoline engine. I have never seen that badge before on an E-class, not sure if I'm just not observant or if only some have that. The power felt good on this one, I was pretty pleased with it. It had pretty warped front rotors and they made a lot of noise as I braked. Unlike the 2010, this one was very smooth at idle. I turned the blower fan down and genuinely thought "Does this have auto start stop?" and looked down and saw about 600 RPM idle. Lovely! This is what I would expect from a Mercedes. It also had the active assist stuff (Lane departure, driver awakeness, and blindspot monitoring), normally I don't care about that stuff as I'm an enthusiast when it comes to driving but unlike some I won't complain to have those cool features. I felt it do its job as I slightly drifted in a lane, very cool.
One negative of both E-class though, no fold down rear seats. I could swear the '14 I looked at had that, and I assumed all E-class had fold down rear seats. Is this not the case? As silly as it may seem, that's a big one for me so I can haul larger items in the car. I'm giving up a truck which I don't need due to its large size and gas thirst, but I still need a car that can haul a fair amount of bulky large things. I hate SUVs so that is completely ruled out. A wagon would be fine, but those are hard to come by in general and especially in E-class (Plus they are always more expensive). I like to be at a lower price point since this is a second car for me (I intend to sell my Maxima and truck, so I would have my Z06 and the Mercedes only). Were fold down rear seats an option on the 2010-2013 E350 or is that something that was only available on '14+ E-classes?
Also, is there a way when using the paddles to actually force manual mode? The only way I saw to do anything was to pull down and I'd see D6, D5, etc. and if I just went up it would go D5, D6, D. Is there no M mode to force manual shifts only? Also is there no way to manually shift into 7th gear via the paddles? I agree with sentiments about Honda reliability and their excitement. To be honest, I like Lexus quite a bit but their styling doesn't speak to me as much otherwise I respect them a great deal. The Lexus sales person suggested a late model Avalon, I've seen their interior they are surprisingly nice. But the design language again does not speak to me at all. Speaking of design language, I actually normally really like Audi A8's (as well as most flagship luxury sedans) but I saw what had to be a very new one today and genuinely thought "That's a weird looking A4". Though me personally, I have a harder time telling the newest C, E, and S classes apart. The older ones where much more distinct.
2010 E350 4Matic with around 67k miles for $16,750. I liked the low price on this one (weeks ago I looked at a '14 E350 4Matic that was $25k) and it looked good and had a decent service history. It was at a Lexus dealer known for good customer service, so I checked it out. Everything worked well on it, but at idle it vibrated quite a lot. About like I'd expect from a lower end car with a 4 cylinder. As it got going, it was smooth on the road and no issues. Come to a stop again, the vibration comes back and this is noticeably the engine vibrating. The sales person I worked with suggested opening it up to clear out any gunk, I happily obliged. I was rolling at a lower speed and the kickdown felt pretty good from there. Later on the highway I was going maybe 35-40 and nailed it again and this time it was pretty underwhelming. By this I mean I like a powerful car and at this moment it felt a bit sluggish. It climbed no problem but felt like it didn't kickdown mostly due to only being 268 HP in a car that size. I don't think it had an issue there, just that's all the oomph it has. It did idle smoother after that, but still vibrating more than I'd expect. Another sales person tried to tell me "it is a used car..." which I scoff at, I'm pretty sure that motor should be very smooth even with 100k miles more on it...
They recommended me look at a GS350, it was a few years newer maybe a '13 or '14. The manual mode was great on it unlike the Mercedes, though I admit it's not critical to me for how I want to drive the E350. Heated/cooled seats, all seemed pretty good. It was much smoother idling than the '10 E350, but it had more road noise and was not as refined feeling (It was also an F Sport). I liked a lot about it, the power was great but the price was a good bit more than the Mercedes and I don't care for the exterior looks nearly as much.
Lastly, I looked at a 2012 E350 4Matic for $21k and around 47k miles. Oddest of all, I saw BlueEfficiency badges on the fenders. In my head I'm thinking "Is this a diesel? I swore it was just a normal E350" and then saw it was a gasoline engine. I have never seen that badge before on an E-class, not sure if I'm just not observant or if only some have that. The power felt good on this one, I was pretty pleased with it. It had pretty warped front rotors and they made a lot of noise as I braked. Unlike the 2010, this one was very smooth at idle. I turned the blower fan down and genuinely thought "Does this have auto start stop?" and looked down and saw about 600 RPM idle. Lovely! This is what I would expect from a Mercedes. It also had the active assist stuff (Lane departure, driver awakeness, and blindspot monitoring), normally I don't care about that stuff as I'm an enthusiast when it comes to driving but unlike some I won't complain to have those cool features. I felt it do its job as I slightly drifted in a lane, very cool.
One negative of both E-class though, no fold down rear seats. I could swear the '14 I looked at had that, and I assumed all E-class had fold down rear seats. Is this not the case? As silly as it may seem, that's a big one for me so I can haul larger items in the car. I'm giving up a truck which I don't need due to its large size and gas thirst, but I still need a car that can haul a fair amount of bulky large things. I hate SUVs so that is completely ruled out. A wagon would be fine, but those are hard to come by in general and especially in E-class (Plus they are always more expensive). I like to be at a lower price point since this is a second car for me (I intend to sell my Maxima and truck, so I would have my Z06 and the Mercedes only). Were fold down rear seats an option on the 2010-2013 E350 or is that something that was only available on '14+ E-classes?
Also, is there a way when using the paddles to actually force manual mode? The only way I saw to do anything was to pull down and I'd see D6, D5, etc. and if I just went up it would go D5, D6, D. Is there no M mode to force manual shifts only? Also is there no way to manually shift into 7th gear via the paddles? I agree with sentiments about Honda reliability and their excitement. To be honest, I like Lexus quite a bit but their styling doesn't speak to me as much otherwise I respect them a great deal. The Lexus sales person suggested a late model Avalon, I've seen their interior they are surprisingly nice. But the design language again does not speak to me at all. Speaking of design language, I actually normally really like Audi A8's (as well as most flagship luxury sedans) but I saw what had to be a very new one today and genuinely thought "That's a weird looking A4". Though me personally, I have a harder time telling the newest C, E, and S classes apart. The older ones where much more distinct.
mounts & possibly from the transmission mount.
if you're shopping these pre-owned 2010-2013
E's, you want to have a dealer inspection of
the 3 mounts & build in replacement as part of your deal.
the motor has to be REMOVED to replace the right engine mount which is why the replacement is so expensive at +/-$2000!
Also, faded wood trim is an issue from 2010-2011 / MB changed wood trim suppliers who
forgot to add UV protectant in the wood finish.
To replace badly faded wood trim means spending $2700 on a new 16-piece kit + 3-4
hours dealer installation...
10-24-2020, 07:14 AM
#91
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Location: Elizabethtown Kentucky
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2019 E300 4matic
The vibration coursing through the E350 body & steering wheel is due to 2 worn engine
mounts & possibly from the transmission mount.
if you're shopping these pre-owned 2010-2013
E's, you want to have a dealer inspection of
the 3 mounts & build in replacement as part of your deal.
the motor has to be REMOVED to replace the right engine mount which is why the replacement is so expensive at +/-$2000!
Also, faded wood trim is an issue from 2010-2011 / MB changed wood trim suppliers who
forgot to add UV protectant in the wood finish.
To replace badly faded wood trim means spending $2700 on a new 16-piece kit + 3-4
hours dealer installation...
mounts & possibly from the transmission mount.
if you're shopping these pre-owned 2010-2013
E's, you want to have a dealer inspection of
the 3 mounts & build in replacement as part of your deal.
the motor has to be REMOVED to replace the right engine mount which is why the replacement is so expensive at +/-$2000!
Also, faded wood trim is an issue from 2010-2011 / MB changed wood trim suppliers who
forgot to add UV protectant in the wood finish.
To replace badly faded wood trim means spending $2700 on a new 16-piece kit + 3-4
hours dealer installation...
I know it’s an old post but I live near Louisville too and it really doesn’t snow enough here to justify a 4matic. If you want one fine but I get by just fine with my rear wheel drive and Michelin Pilot sport all seasons
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pb39374 (10-26-2020)
10-24-2020, 08:48 AM
#92
MBWorld Fanatic!
Faded wood trim is a issue on all W212s from 2010-2016 with burl walnut. It is hit or miss.
10-26-2020, 08:56 PM
#93
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2010 E350 4Matic
you don’t have to remove the engine to do the engine and transmission mounts however the front subframe has to be lowered on the 4matics which adds a lot to the repair. For a normal rear wheel drive the engine and transmission mounts are pretty straightforward. At $650 I wouldn’t consider them cheap but certainly not in the thousands of dollars.
I know it’s an old post but I live near Louisville too and it really doesn’t snow enough here to justify a 4matic. If you want one fine but I get by just fine with my rear wheel drive and Michelin Pilot sport all seasons
I know it’s an old post but I live near Louisville too and it really doesn’t snow enough here to justify a 4matic. If you want one fine but I get by just fine with my rear wheel drive and Michelin Pilot sport all seasons
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pierrejoliat (11-24-2020)
11-24-2020, 03:41 AM
#94
Member
Engine Mounts 212
[QUOTE
my MB Shop, Pete's Mercedes in SF, is the leading mechanic in the Bay Area, and the Manager tells me that the E350 212 Engine has to be raised up OUT of the bay to replace the right engine mount.
as Pete's has tended to my 2 E's for 18 years,
I'll rely on their advice.
they also recommend AGAINST the 211 series due to engine & transmission issues.
=E350_Sport;8186466]you don’t have to remove the engine to do the engine and transmission mounts however the front subframe has to be lowered on the 4matics which adds a lot to the repair. For a normal rear wheel drive the engine and transmission mounts are pretty straightforward. At $650 I wouldn’t consider them cheap but certainly not in the thousands of dollars.
I know it’s an old post but I live near Louisville too and it really doesn’t snow enough here to justify a 4matic. If you want one fine but I get by just fine with my rear wheel drive and Michelin Pilot sport all seasons[/QUOTE]
my MB Shop, Pete's Mercedes in SF, is the leading mechanic in the Bay Area, and the Manager tells me that the E350 212 Engine has to be raised up OUT of the bay to replace the right engine mount.
as Pete's has tended to my 2 E's for 18 years,
I'll rely on their advice.
they also recommend AGAINST the 211 series due to engine & transmission issues.
=E350_Sport;8186466]you don’t have to remove the engine to do the engine and transmission mounts however the front subframe has to be lowered on the 4matics which adds a lot to the repair. For a normal rear wheel drive the engine and transmission mounts are pretty straightforward. At $650 I wouldn’t consider them cheap but certainly not in the thousands of dollars.
I know it’s an old post but I live near Louisville too and it really doesn’t snow enough here to justify a 4matic. If you want one fine but I get by just fine with my rear wheel drive and Michelin Pilot sport all seasons[/QUOTE]
11-24-2020, 10:22 AM
#95
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12 E350 4Matic 13 E350 4Matic AMG Sport
My '12 has the "Blue Efficiency" badges on the front fenders, I think it was to announce the new 276 direct injection engine, my '13 doesn't have them. I couldn't find a local new E550 when I bought the '13,
11-24-2020, 11:31 AM
#96
Super Member
I spoke with my mechanic last week about this same question...it has everything to do with the engine that was used in 2010 and 2011...The M272 engine is more reliable than the M276 that replaces it. So many issues with oil leaks were plagued by the M276 that he recommended against buying anything after that, especially anything with forced induction. This is pretty much everything. That's why if you look around, they'll recommend a pre-facelift W212 as opposed to a facelift W212.
An easy way to find out if it is the old vs new engine is the all over black engine cover (M276), as opposed to the two-tone engine cover that looks like a silver 'V' on the top (M272).
An easy way to find out if it is the old vs new engine is the all over black engine cover (M276), as opposed to the two-tone engine cover that looks like a silver 'V' on the top (M272).
Last edited by ghaffar23; 11-24-2020 at 11:40 AM.
11-24-2020, 11:51 AM
#97
Super Member
That was the harmonic balancer pulley issue that affected engines all the way up to 2008, but yes, the W211 before the facelift were not reliable at all. Unless you were fortunate enough to get the E320 CDI with the OM648 inline-6, NOT the V6 nor any of the Bluetec diesels. Those were problematic over time as well due to all of the emissions electronics.
11-24-2020, 08:21 PM
#98
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2008 E350 4Matic, 2011 E350 4matic
I spoke with my mechanic last week about this same question...it has everything to do with the engine that was used in 2010 and 2011...The M272 engine is more reliable than the M276 that replaces it. So many issues with oil leaks were plagued by the M276 that he recommended against buying anything after that, especially anything with forced induction. This is pretty much everything. That's why if you look around, they'll recommend a pre-facelift W212 as opposed to a facelift W212.
An easy way to find out if it is the old vs new engine is the all over black engine cover (M276), as opposed to the two-tone engine cover that looks like a silver 'V' on the top (M272).
An easy way to find out if it is the old vs new engine is the all over black engine cover (M276), as opposed to the two-tone engine cover that looks like a silver 'V' on the top (M272).
The following users liked this post:
pierrejoliat (11-24-2020)
11-25-2020, 10:32 AM
#99
MBWorld Fanatic!
I spoke with my mechanic last week about this same question...it has everything to do with the engine that was used in 2010 and 2011...The M272 engine is more reliable than the M276 that replaces it. So many issues with oil leaks were plagued by the M276 that he recommended against buying anything after that, especially anything with forced induction. This is pretty much everything. That's why if you look around, they'll recommend a pre-facelift W212 as opposed to a facelift W212.
An easy way to find out if it is the old vs new engine is the all over black engine cover (M276), as opposed to the two-tone engine cover that looks like a silver 'V' on the top (M272).
An easy way to find out if it is the old vs new engine is the all over black engine cover (M276), as opposed to the two-tone engine cover that looks like a silver 'V' on the top (M272).
11-25-2020, 11:47 AM
#100
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2008 E350 4Matic, 2011 E350 4matic
Caveat Emptor still applies today.
