To buy or not to buy
12-29-2020, 06:37 PM
#51
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2012 CLS63
Somebody mentioned that they loved the Kia Soul as much as any other car they had ever driven. That’s interesting, because I recently test drove one. A 2021. Surprisingly nice car to drive with a compliant suspension, good steering and pretty flat cornering. The CVT is not terrible and you could almost say the car has ample power.Unique and good looks. And at just over 60 cubes of total cargo, quite practical. I’d probably get one if I did not have to have AWD.
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pierrejoliat (12-29-2020)
12-29-2020, 06:54 PM
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12 E350 4Matic 13 E350 4Matic AMG Sport
Yes, I thought so, 20 years ago, I may have even preferred the sport, but now I notice the ride height difference when I get in and out! I did drive all the other upscale brands before buying the Benz, I thought it was the best overall, with some features coming out on top for other brands, for me it came out worst to best: Acura, Infinity, Audi, Lexus ,BMW,Mercedes. Just my opinion. I have recently driven the Lincoln Continental and MKZ, I felt like I went home in the better car! I am going to drive the Cadillac CT4-5 soon.
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MBNUT1 (12-29-2020)
12-30-2020, 12:52 AM
#53
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For the facelift cars, the "Sport" like mine has the 677 suspension which I believe has been determined to be a luxury suspension with a 15mm lower ride height. I don't have any of these complaints with my 2016. It is smooth and quiet. A little more engine noise, perhaps, than one would expect but it doesn't sound bad. These pre-facelift sport models don't have the 486 suspension, right? That wasn't a thing on the W212, IIRC? Now the 486 I did have on my 2014 C350 and that is a very, very stiff ride.
I can't tell much of a difference in ride/handling/NVH in my 2016 W212 than I had in my 2009 W211. Both cars are/were great.
I can't tell much of a difference in ride/handling/NVH in my 2016 W212 than I had in my 2009 W211. Both cars are/were great.
12-30-2020, 09:16 AM
#54
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12 E350 4Matic 13 E350 4Matic AMG Sport
For the facelift cars, the "Sport" like mine has the 677 suspension which I believe has been determined to be a luxury suspension with a 15mm lower ride height. I don't have any of these complaints with my 2016. It is smooth and quiet. A little more engine noise, perhaps, than one would expect but it doesn't sound bad. These pre-facelift sport models don't have the 486 suspension, right? That wasn't a thing on the W212, IIRC? Now the 486 I did have on my 2014 C350 and that is a very, very stiff ride.
I can't tell much of a difference in ride/handling/NVH in my 2016 W212 than I had in my 2009 W211. Both cars are/were great.
I can't tell much of a difference in ride/handling/NVH in my 2016 W212 than I had in my 2009 W211. Both cars are/were great.
Last edited by pierrejoliat; 12-30-2020 at 09:19 AM.
12-30-2020, 09:28 AM
#55
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12 E350 4Matic 13 E350 4Matic AMG Sport
My Mom broke from the pack the last time she{we} bought her car. She has the Genesis with the 5 liter V8. It's a '12 with 38k now, been a great car, she loves it, after five decades with Benz's and a few Audi's, I mentioned it might be time for a new car and she said ok, go get me the G90! She is 92, driving {with both feet} and still enjoys a nice ride, hers is pearl white and tan and I must admit rides well and has had nothing break yet, so tires wipers and fluids so far. Just sayin' the Koreans are catching up!
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12-30-2020, 11:35 AM
#56
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2010 E350 4Matic
For the facelift cars, the "Sport" like mine has the 677 suspension which I believe has been determined to be a luxury suspension with a 15mm lower ride height. I don't have any of these complaints with my 2016. It is smooth and quiet. A little more engine noise, perhaps, than one would expect but it doesn't sound bad. These pre-facelift sport models don't have the 486 suspension, right? That wasn't a thing on the W212, IIRC? Now the 486 I did have on my 2014 C350 and that is a very, very stiff ride.
I can't tell much of a difference in ride/handling/NVH in my 2016 W212 than I had in my 2009 W211. Both cars are/were great.
I can't tell much of a difference in ride/handling/NVH in my 2016 W212 than I had in my 2009 W211. Both cars are/were great.
That's interesting. There is no comparison in the handling characteristics of my old W211 and my current W212. The W212 handles much better than the W211 did. Even my wife observed the difference. The W212 has much less roll during cornering.
Last edited by MBNUT1; 12-30-2020 at 11:51 AM.
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pierrejoliat (01-01-2021)
12-30-2020, 11:49 AM
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12 E350 4Matic 13 E350 4Matic AMG Sport
For the facelift cars, the "Sport" like mine has the 677 suspension which I believe has been determined to be a luxury suspension with a 15mm lower ride height. I don't have any of these complaints with my 2016. It is smooth and quiet. A little more engine noise, perhaps, than one would expect but it doesn't sound bad. These pre-facelift sport models don't have the 486 suspension, right? That wasn't a thing on the W212, IIRC? Now the 486 I did have on my 2014 C350 and that is a very, very stiff ride.
I can't tell much of a difference in ride/handling/NVH in my 2016 W212 than I had in my 2009 W211. Both cars are/were great.
I can't tell much of a difference in ride/handling/NVH in my 2016 W212 than I had in my 2009 W211. Both cars are/were great.
12-30-2020, 11:56 AM
#58
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12 E350 4Matic 13 E350 4Matic AMG Sport
Back in the day we had lots of WPA brick roads here in Cleveland, the folks in a quaint little town {wealthy} by me redid a few miles around them with the original WPA bricks. cost more than new concrete per mile, but it looks nice!
12-30-2020, 12:22 PM
#59
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I think I’m losing a bit of my fear of MASSIVE MERCEDES REPAIR BILLS. Ok, if i get an E250 Bluetec i WILL have to re-do the DEF tank eventually, but if i pay low $20k’s for the car, $4k or whatever not that hard to stomach. But due to the double whammy of COVID and living in the boonies of New Brunswick, it won’t be me that gets to test drive. Fortunately i have a brother in Montreal who knows a bit about cars and whom i have persuaded to test one with 115k km or so. I hope for that to happen tomorrow, and we’ll take it from there. There are several cars on offer in my price range in the Toronto area. Ultimately I would send in an indie mechanic to check and test, then have the car trucked to me.
12-30-2020, 02:01 PM
#60
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Another (slight) concern: what do you do when it’s -20C overnight and you don’t want your DEF to freeze? Stuff insulation around the tank?
12-31-2020, 10:50 PM
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fwiw, over the past few months, I drove at least 3 other W212 facelifts before we bought ours. all E350, all 2014-2016... all in very good condition, with nearly new tires, etc etc.
the E350 'sport' sedan had an AWFUL ride on a bad road, every crack and pothole felt like a jack hammer on our butts. a stretch of grooved concrete freeway sounded and felt like an angle grinder at full boogie.
an E350 'luxury' sedan was better, but still not that great. rough pavement was a harsh ride. reminded me of a loaded 2016 Honda Accord V6 we'd test driven a week early, same thing, quiet and smooth enough on good pavement, but AWFUL on a rough raod.
an E350 4matic 'sport' wagon was yet another notch better, but still not as comfortable as the ride on our 1994 E320 wagon with 280,000 miles.
the 2016 E350 4matic 'luxury' wagon we ended up buying rides nearly as cushy as that old 94, with way better handling and performance.
the E350 'sport' sedan had an AWFUL ride on a bad road, every crack and pothole felt like a jack hammer on our butts. a stretch of grooved concrete freeway sounded and felt like an angle grinder at full boogie.
an E350 'luxury' sedan was better, but still not that great. rough pavement was a harsh ride. reminded me of a loaded 2016 Honda Accord V6 we'd test driven a week early, same thing, quiet and smooth enough on good pavement, but AWFUL on a rough raod.
an E350 4matic 'sport' wagon was yet another notch better, but still not as comfortable as the ride on our 1994 E320 wagon with 280,000 miles.
the 2016 E350 4matic 'luxury' wagon we ended up buying rides nearly as cushy as that old 94, with way better handling and performance.
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El Cid (01-01-2021)
12-31-2020, 11:40 PM
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2010 E350 4Matic
fwiw, over the past few months, I drove at least 3 other W212 facelifts before we bought ours. all E350, all 2014-2016... all in very good condition, with nearly new tires, etc etc.
the E350 'sport' sedan had an AWFUL ride on a bad road, every crack and pothole felt like a jack hammer on our butts. a stretch of grooved concrete freeway sounded and felt like an angle grinder at full boogie.
an E350 'luxury' sedan was better, but still not that great. rough pavement was a harsh ride. reminded me of a loaded 2016 Honda Accord V6 we'd test driven a week early, same thing, quiet and smooth enough on good pavement, but AWFUL on a rough raod.
an E350 4matic 'sport' wagon was yet another notch better, but still not as comfortable as the ride on our 1994 E320 wagon with 280,000 miles.
the 2016 E350 4matic 'luxury' wagon we ended up buying rides nearly as cushy as that old 94, with way better handling and performance.
the E350 'sport' sedan had an AWFUL ride on a bad road, every crack and pothole felt like a jack hammer on our butts. a stretch of grooved concrete freeway sounded and felt like an angle grinder at full boogie.
an E350 'luxury' sedan was better, but still not that great. rough pavement was a harsh ride. reminded me of a loaded 2016 Honda Accord V6 we'd test driven a week early, same thing, quiet and smooth enough on good pavement, but AWFUL on a rough raod.
an E350 4matic 'sport' wagon was yet another notch better, but still not as comfortable as the ride on our 1994 E320 wagon with 280,000 miles.
the 2016 E350 4matic 'luxury' wagon we ended up buying rides nearly as cushy as that old 94, with way better handling and performance.
So here is a question for you. My biggest objection to the current E Class's (W211 and W212) is the amount of road imperfections that are transmitted to the steering relative to all the prior Mercedes that I have driven which by the way were recirculating ball steering. Would you say that your '94 provided a more road isolation in the steering?
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pierrejoliat (01-01-2021)
12-31-2020, 11:48 PM
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if anything, the W212 steering is pretty numb, I'd say it has /too/ much power assist, especially the 4matics.
01-01-2021, 09:12 AM
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12 E350 4Matic 13 E350 4Matic AMG Sport
fwiw, over the past few months, I drove at least 3 other W212 facelifts before we bought ours. all E350, all 2014-2016... all in very good condition, with nearly new tires, etc etc.
the E350 'sport' sedan had an AWFUL ride on a bad road, every crack and pothole felt like a jack hammer on our butts. a stretch of grooved concrete freeway sounded and felt like an angle grinder at full boogie.
an E350 'luxury' sedan was better, but still not that great. rough pavement was a harsh ride. reminded me of a loaded 2016 Honda Accord V6 we'd test driven a week early, same thing, quiet and smooth enough on good pavement, but AWFUL on a rough raod.
an E350 4matic 'sport' wagon was yet another notch better, but still not as comfortable as the ride on our 1994 E320 wagon with 280,000 miles.
the 2016 E350 4matic 'luxury' wagon we ended up buying rides nearly as cushy as that old 94, with way better handling and performance.
the E350 'sport' sedan had an AWFUL ride on a bad road, every crack and pothole felt like a jack hammer on our butts. a stretch of grooved concrete freeway sounded and felt like an angle grinder at full boogie.
an E350 'luxury' sedan was better, but still not that great. rough pavement was a harsh ride. reminded me of a loaded 2016 Honda Accord V6 we'd test driven a week early, same thing, quiet and smooth enough on good pavement, but AWFUL on a rough raod.
an E350 4matic 'sport' wagon was yet another notch better, but still not as comfortable as the ride on our 1994 E320 wagon with 280,000 miles.
the 2016 E350 4matic 'luxury' wagon we ended up buying rides nearly as cushy as that old 94, with way better handling and performance.
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MBNUT1 (01-01-2021)
01-01-2021, 10:01 AM
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2010 E350 Luxury Sedan, Engine 272 (V6)
While not the best cars on the road, Kia's are very good cars and highly rated for bang for the buck, dependability and reliability, as well as cost to own. Someone commented on their mother preferring a Genesis to M-B. If Hyundai could get their marketing and dealer network for Genesis functioning better, Genesis could be the new Lexus. Excellent cars with lower cost to own, more standard features and higher reliability and dependability.
As for the noise in my car, the major problem is transfer of road noise from front wheels into passenger compartment. And it is not the tires. Did same thing with Michelins and Continentals.
For comparison, a friend and I take trips on I-85 to Atlanta GA area and the roads are in terrible shape for about 40 miles in one area. In my car, we have to stop talking as cannot hear each other. In his Kia van, still some noise, but able to hear fine. Far less than in my E350.
As for cost to maintain an M-B, had an "A" service done yesterday. The basic oil & filter change, tire rotation and checks. $291. Had the same service done on my Nissan and Toyota at their dealerships within the past few months. One was $65 and the other was $78. Wait time was 2 hours for M-B and 45 minutes at the other two. Not to mention 15 minute drives to Toyota or Nissan dealerships compared to 45 minutes to M-B. Even if you do it yourself or go to an independent, the cost for work on M-B's will be expensive compared to American and Asian cars.
Not sure how it works with your insurance company, but mine charges a whole lot more for an M-B than it does for a Nissan or Toyota. Called the company and asked why as my M-B is four years older than my Nissan and Nissan much better equipped. It costs much more to repair M-B's so they have to charge higher premiums.
Noticed the OP has a 2010 RAV4. Excellent cars. We owned one for many, many years and miles. Any European car and M-B in particular will be less dependable and far more expensive to own and maintain - regardless of who does it.
I can relate to this experience. What I would say is that the car is not a bad highway car if you are on smooth roads. I live near I75 which largely an asphalt road that gets pounded by a ton of truck traffic and the driving quality on that road is poor due to the busyness of the transmitted vibration through the chassis including the steering wheel. The overall experience is never harsh mind you but poor at filtering out small road imperfections. Like you I have good quality Michelin all season touring tires. Thinking something might be wrong with the suspension I asked the dealer to give it a good look over and test drive when I recently had it aligned. Their response was that the car reflected exceptional care and upkeep. For sure the car is not as quiet as my W211 was on noisy pavement. Again it's a nice road car on the right roads. My feeling is that Mercedes got on the sport sedan mentality and aren't that great at it.
In terms of ownership costs it has cost me about $15k in depreciation ($9k) and repairs ($6k due to 4 matic system repairs) over the 4.5 years and 45K miles that I have owned it and I bought it for wholesale. Buying a W212 now would be better from a depreciation standpoint because the W213 came out after I bought mine and all the W212's took a hit for that.
We also have a 2006 Mazda 3 which is a total rust bucket and approaching 200K miles but I trust the reliability of that car ten times more than my 135k 2010 Mercedes. For one thing there is just less junk to break and anything that does go won't be terrifyingly expensive to get repaired. If I keep this car until it has 200k miles on it without any additional significant repairs I will revise my opinion but based on the last 45K I just don't have much confidence in that happening. Putting crash worthiness aside, for the money the Mazda is a better car.
Of course from a safety comparison there absolutely is no comparison which is worth a lot. This is where I would trust this car over anything short of an S Class.
If one were to buy one I would go for the facelifted version despite not being a big fan of the post facelift styling for the better engine and with the hope of reliability and driving quality improvements vs my 2010.
In terms of ownership costs it has cost me about $15k in depreciation ($9k) and repairs ($6k due to 4 matic system repairs) over the 4.5 years and 45K miles that I have owned it and I bought it for wholesale. Buying a W212 now would be better from a depreciation standpoint because the W213 came out after I bought mine and all the W212's took a hit for that.
We also have a 2006 Mazda 3 which is a total rust bucket and approaching 200K miles but I trust the reliability of that car ten times more than my 135k 2010 Mercedes. For one thing there is just less junk to break and anything that does go won't be terrifyingly expensive to get repaired. If I keep this car until it has 200k miles on it without any additional significant repairs I will revise my opinion but based on the last 45K I just don't have much confidence in that happening. Putting crash worthiness aside, for the money the Mazda is a better car.
Of course from a safety comparison there absolutely is no comparison which is worth a lot. This is where I would trust this car over anything short of an S Class.
If one were to buy one I would go for the facelifted version despite not being a big fan of the post facelift styling for the better engine and with the hope of reliability and driving quality improvements vs my 2010.
For comparison, a friend and I take trips on I-85 to Atlanta GA area and the roads are in terrible shape for about 40 miles in one area. In my car, we have to stop talking as cannot hear each other. In his Kia van, still some noise, but able to hear fine. Far less than in my E350.
As for cost to maintain an M-B, had an "A" service done yesterday. The basic oil & filter change, tire rotation and checks. $291. Had the same service done on my Nissan and Toyota at their dealerships within the past few months. One was $65 and the other was $78. Wait time was 2 hours for M-B and 45 minutes at the other two. Not to mention 15 minute drives to Toyota or Nissan dealerships compared to 45 minutes to M-B. Even if you do it yourself or go to an independent, the cost for work on M-B's will be expensive compared to American and Asian cars.
Not sure how it works with your insurance company, but mine charges a whole lot more for an M-B than it does for a Nissan or Toyota. Called the company and asked why as my M-B is four years older than my Nissan and Nissan much better equipped. It costs much more to repair M-B's so they have to charge higher premiums.
Noticed the OP has a 2010 RAV4. Excellent cars. We owned one for many, many years and miles. Any European car and M-B in particular will be less dependable and far more expensive to own and maintain - regardless of who does it.
Last edited by El Cid; 01-01-2021 at 10:05 AM.
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MBNUT1 (01-01-2021)
01-01-2021, 02:31 PM
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2010 E350 4Matic
While not the best cars on the road, Kia's are very good cars and highly rated for bang for the buck, dependability and reliability, as well as cost to own. Someone commented on their mother preferring a Genesis to M-B. If Hyundai could get their marketing and dealer network for Genesis functioning better, Genesis could be the new Lexus. Excellent cars with lower cost to own, more standard features and higher reliability and dependability.
As for the noise in my car, the major problem is transfer of road noise from front wheels into passenger compartment. And it is not the tires. Did same thing with Michelins and Continentals.
For comparison, a friend and I take trips on I-85 to Atlanta GA area and the roads are in terrible shape for about 40 miles in one area. In my car, we have to stop talking as cannot hear each other. In his Kia van, still some noise, but able to hear fine. Far less than in my E350.
As for cost to maintain an M-B, had an "A" service done yesterday. The basic oil & filter change, tire rotation and checks. $291. Had the same service done on my Nissan and Toyota at their dealerships within the past few months. One was $65 and the other was $78. Wait time was 2 hours for M-B and 45 minutes at the other two. Not to mention 15 minute drives to Toyota or Nissan dealerships compared to 45 minutes to M-B. Even if you do it yourself or go to an independent, the cost for work on M-B's will be expensive compared to American and Asian cars.
Not sure how it works with your insurance company, but mine charges a whole lot more for an M-B than it does for a Nissan or Toyota. Called the company and asked why as my M-B is four years older than my Nissan and Nissan much better equipped. It costs much more to repair M-B's so they have to charge higher premiums.
Noticed the OP has a 2010 RAV4. Excellent cars. We owned one for many, many years and miles. Any European car and M-B in particular will be less dependable and far more expensive to own and maintain - regardless of who does it.
As for the noise in my car, the major problem is transfer of road noise from front wheels into passenger compartment. And it is not the tires. Did same thing with Michelins and Continentals.
For comparison, a friend and I take trips on I-85 to Atlanta GA area and the roads are in terrible shape for about 40 miles in one area. In my car, we have to stop talking as cannot hear each other. In his Kia van, still some noise, but able to hear fine. Far less than in my E350.
As for cost to maintain an M-B, had an "A" service done yesterday. The basic oil & filter change, tire rotation and checks. $291. Had the same service done on my Nissan and Toyota at their dealerships within the past few months. One was $65 and the other was $78. Wait time was 2 hours for M-B and 45 minutes at the other two. Not to mention 15 minute drives to Toyota or Nissan dealerships compared to 45 minutes to M-B. Even if you do it yourself or go to an independent, the cost for work on M-B's will be expensive compared to American and Asian cars.
Not sure how it works with your insurance company, but mine charges a whole lot more for an M-B than it does for a Nissan or Toyota. Called the company and asked why as my M-B is four years older than my Nissan and Nissan much better equipped. It costs much more to repair M-B's so they have to charge higher premiums.
Noticed the OP has a 2010 RAV4. Excellent cars. We owned one for many, many years and miles. Any European car and M-B in particular will be less dependable and far more expensive to own and maintain - regardless of who does it.
Where I live there really is only one Mercedes focused indy and they don't charge that much less than the dealer but are willing to repair instead of replace. So it's not like going to an indy offers that much of a reduction in ownership cost.
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El Cid (01-02-2021)
01-01-2021, 02:34 PM
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2010 E350 4Matic
Well a little dramatic but not wrong, I agree Benz has gone in the direction of BMW and Audi with all this sport stuff. I have mentioned this before but my Sport and my luxury are two very different cars that happen to look similar. I have debated putting "16 wheels on my luxury to make it ride more like my older Benz's. I like the electric steering though.
Last edited by MBNUT1; 01-01-2021 at 02:49 PM.
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01-02-2021, 07:52 AM
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Odd. Either we have way different sensitivity levels or my car is different. The only part of the luxury model I wanted was the grille and hood ornament. I didn't notice a lot of difference in drive/ride otherwise. Our E350 Sport is just as smooth and quiet as our Lexus ES was (and that's saying a lot), while also being far more athletic.
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pierrejoliat (01-02-2021)
01-02-2021, 01:55 PM
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2010 E350 Luxury Sedan, Engine 272 (V6)
Also why the Luxury version stands taller and clears curbs and so forth that the Sports version hits.
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MBNUT1 (01-02-2021)
01-02-2021, 02:23 PM
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yup. my early 90's E classes (W124) all have 15" wheels with /65 tires. The Luxury E350 has 17's with /45 profile, and hte Sports have 18" with /40, or optionally AMG 19" with /35 which are even worse.
best part is, read footnote 16 on the last page of the 2016 E-class sedan/wagon brochure...
https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/b...016-eclass.pdf
"Lower aspect ratio tires and accompanying wheels provide substantially increased treadwear, increased tire noise and reduced ride comfort. Serious wheel and tire damage may occur if the vehicle is operated on rough or damaged road surfaces or upon encountering road debris or obstacles..."
that footnote is associated with all the 18 and 19 inch wheel options.
best part is, read footnote 16 on the last page of the 2016 E-class sedan/wagon brochure...
https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/b...016-eclass.pdf
"Lower aspect ratio tires and accompanying wheels provide substantially increased treadwear, increased tire noise and reduced ride comfort. Serious wheel and tire damage may occur if the vehicle is operated on rough or damaged road surfaces or upon encountering road debris or obstacles..."
that footnote is associated with all the 18 and 19 inch wheel options.
Last edited by Left Coast Geek; 01-02-2021 at 02:28 PM.
01-02-2021, 02:26 PM
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2010 E350 Luxury Sedan, Engine 272 (V6)
yup. my early 90's E classes (W124) all have 15" wheels with /65 tires. The Luxury E350 has 17's with /45 profile, and hte Sports have 18" with /40, or optionally AMG 19" with /35 which are even worse.
best part is, read footnote 16 on the last page of the 2016 E-class sedan/wagon brochure...
https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/b...016-eclass.pdf
"Lower aspect ratio tires and accompanying wheels provide substantially increased treadwear, increased tire noise and reduced ride comfort. Serious wheel and tire damage may occur if the vehicle is operated on rough or damaged road surfaces or upon encountering road debris or obstacles..."
that footnote is associated with all the 18 and 19 inch wheel options.
best part is, read footnote 16 on the last page of the 2016 E-class sedan/wagon brochure...
https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/b...016-eclass.pdf
"Lower aspect ratio tires and accompanying wheels provide substantially increased treadwear, increased tire noise and reduced ride comfort. Serious wheel and tire damage may occur if the vehicle is operated on rough or damaged road surfaces or upon encountering road debris or obstacles..."
that footnote is associated with all the 18 and 19 inch wheel options.
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01-03-2021, 12:50 PM
#73
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Our Macan has 55 profile front tires and 50 profile rear tires (on 19s) and it rides far rougher than our E-class with the AMG 18" rims with the 40 profile. But I like a little bit of sport.. even the 486 suspension we had on our C350 was not too much for me, but that's a lot stiffer than anything on the W212.
