Car and Driver Car of the Year Issue - E-class v. Honda Accord
#26
I have a 2013 accord sedan ex and a 2015 e350
there is no comparison. I haven't driven the new e class but everytime I drive the e350 I realize how much better it is than the accord
it rides better, it's quieter, the engine is more refined (V6 compared to 4 cylinder so that's expected) and it feels solid compared to the accord
but it's also more than double the cost.
For value the accord beats the e class, no doubt. But it's not a better car. I plan to drive the new e class this weekend.
there is no comparison. I haven't driven the new e class but everytime I drive the e350 I realize how much better it is than the accord
it rides better, it's quieter, the engine is more refined (V6 compared to 4 cylinder so that's expected) and it feels solid compared to the accord
but it's also more than double the cost.
For value the accord beats the e class, no doubt. But it's not a better car. I plan to drive the new e class this weekend.
#27
Unfortunately I think the Japanese luxury brands have stagnated or in some cases gone backward. They have always tried to deliver a better value proposition than their German counterparts and that strategy worked for a long time. But from what I can see they have been reluctant to take the next step up in quality and are content to keep putting "lipstick on a pig" to put it unkindly. In their defense I guess those pigs do often come in at a lower price point. I always had a lot of respect for Acura, but they seem to have one misstep after another in recent years. Regards. Ned.
#29
when Toyota decided to create Lexus, Honda creating Acura, Nissan creating Infiniti, and now Hyundai creating the Genesis brand, it was to compete in the luxury segment. And they have failed. No one will ever think a Lexus, an Acura, an Infiniti or Genesis is going to take market share away from MB or BMW.
Last edited by ADD0514; 01-05-2017 at 01:21 PM.
#30
But when Toyota decided to create Lexus, Honda creating Acura, Nissan creating Infiniti, and now Hyundai creating the Genesis brand, it was to compete in the luxury segment. And they have failed. No one will ever think a Lexus, an Acura, an Infiniti or Genesis is going to take market share away from MB or BMW.
I have no data to back this up, but as a formerly very loyal, long time Lexus LS driver (8 new ones between 1993 & 2012) I personally feel that the huge earthquake/Tsunami/nuclear reactor meltdown really hurt Toyota. To their credit, I don't recall ever hearing them using the disaster as an excuse, but I believe that it really took a toll on the company and when they chose where they would concentrate their efforts, based on their then, substantially reduced capabilities, one area they decided to let coast was the Lexus LS program. Why else would they allow such a successful, "halo" model to wither on the vine as they have, with the current model dating back to 2007? P
...
Now, the MB S Class is so far ahead of the current LS460, that it will take a minor miracle for Lexus to compete at that level again. That said, I never under estimate what those very industrious folks in that tiny country can do, when they decide to do it.
...
Now, the MB S Class is so far ahead of the current LS460, that it will take a minor miracle for Lexus to compete at that level again. That said, I never under estimate what those very industrious folks in that tiny country can do, when they decide to do it.
I also felt similar when I recently had a loaded LS460 as a rental car a couple of months back. It was a nice car, but very dated...then I saw the price and thought that Lexus must have moved their HQ to Colorado and smoking some serious herb. LS460 vs S550? No comparison -- S550. At that level, the price difference is insignificant.
Now, I will say that the Infiniti & Lexus dealerships are **SUPERIOR** in experience and customer friendliness to Mercedes. I wish I could find an MB dealership which was even remotely close to providing that level of customer care. Dealing with the various Mercedes service departments makes me think I'm driving a Ford or other mass-market car. Infiniti also has a centralized service system so every single maintenance record is available to every single dealership. Merc's waaaay behind on this. Each Mercedes dealer uses whatever service software they wish. The only thing Merc's databases have are the parts replaced under warranty. No comments, no data.
As basic transportation, the Accord my have reached the pinnacle of value in its segment, no question. But they are building to a price point just as Mercedes is building to a price point and the higher price point is catering to higher net worth individuals and thus has a higher profit margin which brings the Mercedes even further away from a value proposition as transportation. But the comparison on certain levels is pretty silly we would all admit as the e is built to a higher degree of tolerances, better fit and finish with much more expensive interior materials and far greater and higher end options available. The luxury car makers also tend to take more technology chances to stay ahead of the curve and increase profit margins and do on occasion fail by reducing ride quality and/or the user technology experience, the price of attempting to be at the cutting edge. Thanks. Regards. Ned.
I do see the extra thought & attention the German engineers have put into their cars, like the fact that the reading light lenses get rotated for if the car is right-hand or left-hand drive. BUT... they still miss the mark. The loaner E300 I have right now has the convenience box in the trunk, which completely blocks the trunk light. For that matter, why doesn't any manufacturer put decent lighting in the trunk? LED strips from China are pennies per foot, if even that much. As far as infotainment goes, I still don't understand why the manufacturers haven't just buried an Android tablet with custom interface in the dash and call it a day. It'd be much cheaper to develop and wouldn't be anywhere near as difficult to support.
One thing the Germans don't have: Reliability. Neither of my Infinitis were flawless, but initial teething problems were minimal, usually squeaks and rattles. I had 225,000 miles on my M45 when I sold it to the mechanic who used to work on it. The only drivetrain issues I ever had were valve cover gaskets (120k), shift lever broken (160k), crankshaft position sensor (200k). My 2015 E350 has been the most unreliable car I've ever owned, even more than the gray-market 280CE I owned and I bought that in rough shape.
#31
In my mind, an appropriate analogy.
Ritz Carlton vs Marriott vs Residence Inns. (All owned by the Marriott Corporation). I know where I enjoy staying when on vacation. I worked hard during my career and earned the right to indulge in these things.
And I know what I enjoy driving.
Ritz Carlton vs Marriott vs Residence Inns. (All owned by the Marriott Corporation). I know where I enjoy staying when on vacation. I worked hard during my career and earned the right to indulge in these things.
And I know what I enjoy driving.
Too bad, my CFO will not sign off the Ritz room rate or MB rentals for business trips.
#32
No one in their right mind pays $75k for an E-Class, unless you're doing an AMG or something unusual. A loaded Accord is ~$32k per TrueCar, loaded E300 showing $63k, so a $31k difference, although I think all of us can probably do better on the E pricing, not sure on the Honda.
If I wasn't on the road 250-300 nights/year and didn't have to drive in terrible traffic, no. I'd probably end up with a Passat or similar. BUT...in the world I operate in, I'm often stuck in traffic jams where traffic never gets above 20 mph for 30-60 minutes due to congestion, people drive like idiots, and I end up spending more time in the car per week than I do a bed.
Clicking on Distronic, reclining the seat, firing up the seat massager and pulling up a live jazz recording from the 60s on a good HiFi while seeing a sea of brake lights? Priceless.
#33
My E400 and GL450 are reliable. My E300 has been in the shop 5 times since July.
Last edited by ADD0514; 01-05-2017 at 02:27 PM.
#34
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 12,158
Likes: 2,224
2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ecu tune; edok tcu tune; BB intakes; dyno tuned
The true answer to this question will be an individual one, and may even be situation specific. I sometimes fly First class, other times I fly coach.
No one in their right mind pays $75k for an E-Class, unless you're doing an AMG or something unusual. A loaded Accord is ~$32k per TrueCar, loaded E300 showing $63k, so a $31k difference, although I think all of us can probably do better on the E pricing, not sure on the Honda.
If I wasn't on the road 250-300 nights/year and didn't have to drive in terrible traffic, no. I'd probably end up with a Passat or similar. BUT...in the world I operate in, I'm often stuck in traffic jams where traffic never gets above 20 mph for 30-60 minutes due to congestion, people drive like idiots, and I end up spending more time in the car per week than I do a bed.
Clicking on Distronic, reclining the seat, firing up the seat massager and pulling up a live jazz recording from the 60s on a good HiFi while seeing a sea of brake lights? Priceless.
No one in their right mind pays $75k for an E-Class, unless you're doing an AMG or something unusual. A loaded Accord is ~$32k per TrueCar, loaded E300 showing $63k, so a $31k difference, although I think all of us can probably do better on the E pricing, not sure on the Honda.
If I wasn't on the road 250-300 nights/year and didn't have to drive in terrible traffic, no. I'd probably end up with a Passat or similar. BUT...in the world I operate in, I'm often stuck in traffic jams where traffic never gets above 20 mph for 30-60 minutes due to congestion, people drive like idiots, and I end up spending more time in the car per week than I do a bed.
Clicking on Distronic, reclining the seat, firing up the seat massager and pulling up a live jazz recording from the 60s on a good HiFi while seeing a sea of brake lights? Priceless.
$30-45,000 is a drop in the bucket when you're thrilled with something and don't regret the purchase. Car and driver may not have addressed this component in their article.
#35
I've owned lemons from Toyota, Jeep, Porsche and GM that were repurchased by the manufacturer.
I've had cars that required a monthly trip to the dealer for repairs/maintenance including Lotus, Alfa and Porsche.
I've owned various Mercedes for over 50 years. All were purchased new.
With the exception of a W211 E55 only scheduled maintenance was ever required.
The E55 Airmatic front struts failed while driving resulting in shredded front tires and broken wheels.
The Mercedes dealer brought me an E55 loaner while it collected my broken car with a flat bed truck.
I consider only the lemons unreliable. Repairs happen.
Now that software is more important than mechanics frequent software updates are nominal.
Reliability is in the eye of the beholder.
I've had cars that required a monthly trip to the dealer for repairs/maintenance including Lotus, Alfa and Porsche.
I've owned various Mercedes for over 50 years. All were purchased new.
With the exception of a W211 E55 only scheduled maintenance was ever required.
The E55 Airmatic front struts failed while driving resulting in shredded front tires and broken wheels.
The Mercedes dealer brought me an E55 loaner while it collected my broken car with a flat bed truck.
I consider only the lemons unreliable. Repairs happen.
Now that software is more important than mechanics frequent software updates are nominal.
Reliability is in the eye of the beholder.
#36
I've owned lemons from Toyota, Jeep, Porsche and GM that were repurchased by the manufacturer.
I've had cars that required a monthly trip to the dealer for repairs/maintenance including Lotus, Alfa and Porsche.
I've owned various Mercedes for over 50 years. All were purchased new.
With the exception of a W211 E55 only scheduled maintenance was ever required.
The E55 Airmatic front struts failed while driving resulting in shredded front tires and broken wheels.
The Mercedes dealer brought me an E55 loaner while it collected my broken car with a flat bed truck.
I consider only the lemons unreliable. Repairs happen.
Now that software is more important than mechanics frequent software updates are nominal.
Reliability is in the eye of the beholder.
I've had cars that required a monthly trip to the dealer for repairs/maintenance including Lotus, Alfa and Porsche.
I've owned various Mercedes for over 50 years. All were purchased new.
With the exception of a W211 E55 only scheduled maintenance was ever required.
The E55 Airmatic front struts failed while driving resulting in shredded front tires and broken wheels.
The Mercedes dealer brought me an E55 loaner while it collected my broken car with a flat bed truck.
I consider only the lemons unreliable. Repairs happen.
Now that software is more important than mechanics frequent software updates are nominal.
Reliability is in the eye of the beholder.
The sad part is that I really don't want a new car -- I want mine to work. Mercedes's slogan has been "The best or nothing." I see what happens when you get nothing.
Last edited by BeachBunny; 01-05-2017 at 03:26 PM.
#37
Have you complied with the terms of the Florida Lemon Law? If so, go here to start the process.
#38
Have you complied with the terms of the Florida Lemon Law? If so, go here to start the process.
#39
I've used the Florida Lemon Law 4 times. Each time as soon as I started the process, the dealer offered a great deal that I couldn't refuse. Dealers hate the adverse publicity.
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,106
Likes: 388
From: West Central Florida
2011 E550 P2 4M Sedan
reading all this makes me want to 'borrow' both these cars for a week and decide which is best for me. Funny how I thought my old Toyota was just fine on the highway until I drove my W212. But to be fair, a few weeks in a Honda or Toyota and I would be just fine.
#41
I do own a V6 Accord and a V6 E350. The E350 is gives a much quieter ride but both engines are very refined. Both cars handle and ride well. Both cars have well assembled interiors but the E350 is built to a higher price point. The E350 has many more features. I absolutely do not see any obvious details that tells me that the E is built to a much higher level of sophistication or too tighter tolerances than is my Accord. Except I do think the paint job is better on the E.
Thing is, both are superb cars. When I bought my E350 I never considered selling my Accord. I would say that i top spec, the Accord is 80% of what the E series is at much less than 80% the cost. Put it another way, I would almost certainly choose a top spec V6 Accord over a C300!
Last edited by Zavato; 01-05-2017 at 10:45 PM.
#42
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,548
Likes: 3,833
From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
I completely agree. As far as I am concerned, any MB below an E Class, is an MB in name only and really should be sold as something other than a member of the 3-pointed star line. Boy, am I going to catch hell for this one!
#43
I'm getting the pop corn ready for this one
#44
in fact the interior space of a C is more akin to a civic, though in the case of my rentec 400 it would be a civic that goes to 60 in 4.7 seconds and tops out at 160 mph. In fact the reason Im buying an E43 is because an E300 would be a step back in every dynamic parameters! The CLA does suck, the C rocks.
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,106
Likes: 388
From: West Central Florida
2011 E550 P2 4M Sedan
a couple years back, I was considering a 2014 accord EXLV6 which were a little over $30k at the time. I decided to shop used luxury in the low $30k's which led me to my 2011 E550 P2 4matic. More features and power (but the v6 was plenty for me) and less depreciation offset by higher maintenance and operating costs. Still think I made the right call.
When you can buy 2 accords new for one new e class the comparison is too much considering they both get the job done. But bring the price points closer and the comparison becomes more fair.
When you can buy 2 accords new for one new e class the comparison is too much considering they both get the job done. But bring the price points closer and the comparison becomes more fair.
#47
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 908
Likes: 17
From: New Jersey
2016 Audi S8 Plus/ 2011 Mercedes e550 4Matic//Gone:1985 500SEL/2000 e320 4Matic/ 2001 e55 Kleeman
a couple years back, I was considering a 2014 accord EXLV6 which were a little over $30k at the time. I decided to shop used luxury in the low $30k's which led me to my 2011 E550 P2 4matic. More features and power (but the v6 was plenty for me) and less depreciation offset by higher maintenance and operating costs. Still think I made the right call.
When you can buy 2 accords new for one new e class the comparison is too much considering they both get the job done. But bring the price points closer and the comparison becomes more fair.
When you can buy 2 accords new for one new e class the comparison is too much considering they both get the job done. But bring the price points closer and the comparison becomes more fair.
#48
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 344
Likes: 44
From: Florida & New Jersey
2017 E300 4matic Sport
#49
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,106
Likes: 388
From: West Central Florida
2011 E550 P2 4M Sedan
If all you can say is "I think" I made the right call, you evidently are not an auto enthusiast. I have a e550 4matic which I bought new and it's easily the best car I have ever owned with an amazing engine and transmission, a beast you can beat on and it loves it. I see Accords in your future. Regards. Ned.
And I would be happy to have an Accord in my future. An Accord was my first car and after that we had a V6 coupe that was great. Kept the first one for 6 years and the second one for 8. Very reliable, easy and cheap to maintain with great resale.
#50
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 908
Likes: 17
From: New Jersey
2016 Audi S8 Plus/ 2011 Mercedes e550 4Matic//Gone:1985 500SEL/2000 e320 4Matic/ 2001 e55 Kleeman
I have no data to back this up, but as a formerly very loyal, long time Lexus LS driver (8 new ones between 1993 & 2012) I personally feel that the huge earthquake/Tsunami/nuclear reactor meltdown really hurt Toyota. To their credit, I don't recall ever hearing them using the disaster as an excuse, but I believe that it really took a toll on the company and when they chose where they would concentrate their efforts, based on their then, substantially reduced capabilities, one area they decided to let coast was the Lexus LS program. Why else would they allow such a successful, "halo" model to wither on the vine as they have, with the current model dating back to 2007? Prior to that, new redesigns came in regular intervals, and one would have expected a new car around 2013 or so, but the cataclysmic events of 2011 really threw a monkey wrench in the works and some projects had to be substantially cut back. Now, the MB S Class is so far ahead of the current LS460, that it will take a minor miracle for Lexus to compete at that level again. That said, I never under estimate what those very industrious folks in that tiny country can do, when they decide to do it.