Standard Audio System
01-31-2017, 08:35 AM
#26
In those days 4way active crossovers were common or you got a head unit (or EQ) with a sub out and use a 3 way for the rest. I haven't done a full system in over a decade but I reckon modern day signal processors can do the same thing. You get a cleaner sound with an active crossover because a lot of the power is wasted in the passive crossover circuitry...sometimes up to 50%
As for no of speakers, yes you are right, the most important are the fronts, the rears are less important, a set of coaxials or components at best is all you need for "rear fill" which is why I laugh at all this burmester talk of 13 speakers, 24 speakers!!!
As for no of speakers, yes you are right, the most important are the fronts, the rears are less important, a set of coaxials or components at best is all you need for "rear fill" which is why I laugh at all this burmester talk of 13 speakers, 24 speakers!!!
Last edited by gooner; 01-31-2017 at 08:46 AM.
01-31-2017, 09:30 AM
#27
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2016 Audi S8 Plus/ 2011 Mercedes e550 4Matic//Gone:1985 500SEL/2000 e320 4Matic/ 2001 e55 Kleeman
In those days 4way active crossovers were common or you got a head unit (or EQ) with a sub out and use a 3 way for the rest. I haven't done a full system in over a decade but I reckon modern day signal processors can do the same thing. You get a cleaner sound with an active crossover because a lot of the power is wasted in the passive crossover circuitry...sometimes up to 50%
As for no of speakers, yes you are right, the most important are the fronts, the rears are less important, a set of coaxials or components at best is all you need for "rear fill" which is why I laugh at all this burmester talk of 13 speakers, 24 speakers!!!
As for no of speakers, yes you are right, the most important are the fronts, the rears are less important, a set of coaxials or components at best is all you need for "rear fill" which is why I laugh at all this burmester talk of 13 speakers, 24 speakers!!!
Last edited by ngerstman; 01-31-2017 at 09:33 AM.
01-31-2017, 05:50 PM
#29
Member
I am not sure we can simply "dis" the front bass out of hand. It is a design solution I can understand. Human hearing has poor directional sense of low frequencies, and where the base comes from is not critical. Even a bit of distortion (2-5%) way down in the 20-35 hz region is not noticed very often. Also, I have listened to the optional US Package 1 sound. It is not so bad I would feel obliged to do anything about it other they enjoy it for what it is.
Might I suggest your comments be weighed against what I believe to be reasonable theory and practice......
Might I suggest your comments be weighed against what I believe to be reasonable theory and practice......
01-31-2017, 06:00 PM
#30
Member
02-01-2017, 06:21 AM
#31
yeah seen that video, it's hilarious!!!
Out of curiosity Vlad, what is the top end cut off frequency in your 8" footwell setup?
You might enjoy this Burmester comedy sketch:
Out of curiosity Vlad, what is the top end cut off frequency in your 8" footwell setup?
You might enjoy this Burmester comedy sketch:
Last edited by gooner; 02-01-2017 at 10:12 AM.
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05-11-2017, 05:36 AM
#33
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E200d
Found the actual SUB in this 7LS standard soundsystem setup.
The SUB is located in the foot compartment (throttle) at the drivers side pointing downwards to the ground.
Looks pretty cheap by the way... but sound is ok.
Now I'm looking for the amplifier. So, if anyone is aware of the location?
The SUB is located in the foot compartment (throttle) at the drivers side pointing downwards to the ground.
Looks pretty cheap by the way... but sound is ok.
Now I'm looking for the amplifier. So, if anyone is aware of the location?
05-11-2017, 10:25 AM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
Number of speakers is not an essential criteria for sound quality beyond may be four and a bass unit. Really.
A tight, distortion free amplifier is first requirement. Most 12v amps are notoriously poor compared to home audio components of any quality. They have often had 2 and 3% harmonic distortion, and even worse at higher power. Specs have improved but not as much as they could for standard car radio.
We need .1% THD and a good clean 60watts power. Some small speakers can demand 200w for a loud passage, so we can say that a true RMS 200w at .1% THD would be plenty. Manufactures still do not publish meaningful data. Even Burmeister, whoever they are, claim "800w" or what ever and this is so much advertising hyperbole. Complete BS with out real testing standard applied and quoted.
Speakers. The biggest problem with automotive interiors is speaker placement. Not going to delve into this too much, but it is important that the car interior be designed specifically with speaker placement designed in, along with all the other things a car interior must be.
Assuming placement is satisfactory, making low distortion speakers, especially small ones, is dependent on materials and here a lot or a just medium money can be spent for good results. But, compact design requirements make using off the shelf speaker components problematic. The real problem with car speakers is simple mediocrity. Most car speakers are $5 dollar a piece plastic and paper junk. This should not be. At the same time we do not need $200 per unit speakers, if we design a good stiff, compliant speaker cone with proper magnets to control its motion at say $50 each wholesale. Tweeters, good dome tweeters are not terribly expensive now day. So, we should expect high dispersion low distortion high end units at $20 each.
Subwoofers are pretty straight forward, too. Here distortion and placement is not quite as critical, but design is still critical. The biggest problem is not having serious parts of the car rattle or buzz at higher volume sound. So, we have both an interior design issue and a subwoofer design issue to solve. This can involve considerable testing and engineering time, but physical unit cost is not more than $75-100. Note that deep sound requires the most power, so it might be wise to consider self powered sub-woofer that reaches up into the 60hz region. This would isolate power requirements and leave the head unit amp with less work to do.
But, 14 speakers or what ever? Clever little motorized tweeters? Over kill for sure. But, then we have a design statement to make and need some reason to justify the 3-5000 dollar price of high end factory car audio.
The whole thing can be done with the highest possible audio quality for a real target of $2500. Or, as some have done, simply replace their standard speakers with Dynaudio, Focal or other high quality parts and install a properly rated amplifier. The sound may not rival a fully high end $2500 factor system (or the completely over priced options), but it will be a huge improvement of most all standard systems, including the $400-1000 "factory" options.
A tight, distortion free amplifier is first requirement. Most 12v amps are notoriously poor compared to home audio components of any quality. They have often had 2 and 3% harmonic distortion, and even worse at higher power. Specs have improved but not as much as they could for standard car radio.
We need .1% THD and a good clean 60watts power. Some small speakers can demand 200w for a loud passage, so we can say that a true RMS 200w at .1% THD would be plenty. Manufactures still do not publish meaningful data. Even Burmeister, whoever they are, claim "800w" or what ever and this is so much advertising hyperbole. Complete BS with out real testing standard applied and quoted.
Speakers. The biggest problem with automotive interiors is speaker placement. Not going to delve into this too much, but it is important that the car interior be designed specifically with speaker placement designed in, along with all the other things a car interior must be.
Assuming placement is satisfactory, making low distortion speakers, especially small ones, is dependent on materials and here a lot or a just medium money can be spent for good results. But, compact design requirements make using off the shelf speaker components problematic. The real problem with car speakers is simple mediocrity. Most car speakers are $5 dollar a piece plastic and paper junk. This should not be. At the same time we do not need $200 per unit speakers, if we design a good stiff, compliant speaker cone with proper magnets to control its motion at say $50 each wholesale. Tweeters, good dome tweeters are not terribly expensive now day. So, we should expect high dispersion low distortion high end units at $20 each.
Subwoofers are pretty straight forward, too. Here distortion and placement is not quite as critical, but design is still critical. The biggest problem is not having serious parts of the car rattle or buzz at higher volume sound. So, we have both an interior design issue and a subwoofer design issue to solve. This can involve considerable testing and engineering time, but physical unit cost is not more than $75-100. Note that deep sound requires the most power, so it might be wise to consider self powered sub-woofer that reaches up into the 60hz region. This would isolate power requirements and leave the head unit amp with less work to do.
But, 14 speakers or what ever? Clever little motorized tweeters? Over kill for sure. But, then we have a design statement to make and need some reason to justify the 3-5000 dollar price of high end factory car audio.
The whole thing can be done with the highest possible audio quality for a real target of $2500. Or, as some have done, simply replace their standard speakers with Dynaudio, Focal or other high quality parts and install a properly rated amplifier. The sound may not rival a fully high end $2500 factor system (or the completely over priced options), but it will be a huge improvement of most all standard systems, including the $400-1000 "factory" options.
All true, very good points. Just one quibble, though subwoofer placement is not that critical, distortion can be. In most cars not so much since there are plenty of other low frequency sources, however, on the Eclass, particularly if you order the additional soundproofing, muddled bass will sound exactly as expected, muddled, distorted and lifeless. Percussion will sound flat and watered down.
I cant opine on the base audio system since I haven't heard it, the base Burmester is actually quite good. Its high and mid frequency accuracy is commendable, the bass varies by source, at its best it can be fairly good, punchy and responsive. The maximum output of the system is moderate, its stays very clean till mid volume, which is as loud as most people can enjoy. At higher settings significant distortion creeps in. Its definitely not going to achieve ghetto blaster levels without distortion. As is expected the power rating quoted by MB are pure BS those ratings are probably at 10% distortion. Heck, the 1000 watt class D amplifiers on my DB1 subs weigh about 50 lbs each. My 200W p/c (400W total) class AB McIntosh receiver weighs around 100 and would fill >1/2 the trunk!
For oem car audio the base Burmester is in the upper crust. The optional (4k) Burmester doesn't really sound any better or significantly louder it simply adds more tweeters to allow additional surround modes. Of course, it has additional amplifiers simply because it needs to drive another plethora of speakers, not because it can achieve higher sound levels or improve the overall sound quality.
Last edited by c4004matic; 05-11-2017 at 10:29 AM.
05-11-2017, 11:07 AM
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
Yes but look at the quality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHF7_WrNCnc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHF7_WrNCnc
One quick point, you cant tell how accurate or " good" a midrange or tweeter is by simple looking at its size!!! You can only tell by putting it in front of a microphone and a frequency analyzer! Same thing goes for a sub.
Of course, you can make a better (at least louder) sounding system if you insulate the whole car and take half the trunk with amplifiers and additional subs, DUH
exactly the opposite of what the car manufacturers want to do, increase the weight of the car and reduce cargo space!!!!! On the other hand, the additional $4k for the 3d system is also beyond ridiculous.The use of resonance (aka infinite baffle) to improve low frequency extension is actually quite smart and innovative for a car, how clean it sounds is proportional to how stiff the cone and how well tuned the enclosure is. What fan boys don't understand is that the size of the of the low frequency radiator is immaterial. The bigger you go the more you have to invest in finding a material that is light and rigid to avoid cone induced distortion while maintaining transient response. Thus the bigger the cone goes the price skyrockets since more expensive materials are necessary. Lusting for a sub that can reproduce 20hz in a car is an utterly stupid endeavor, all it achieves is for the car panels to buzz.
