City Rat

Well I have searched the poop out of this topic here on the forum and really am not finding what I want. Apologies at the outset if I've committed operator error in the use of my search skills. Ok, I have always either driven or purchased manual transmission vehicles. My current truck has a five speed stick so I'm quite used to upshifting by sound as well as down shifting for engine braking. In terms of gear ranges, in most vehicles I find that I spend most of my drives between 2nd and 5th. That said I have the 9 speed transmission and while I'm sure that I can figure this out on a long drive on a lonely country road, I would like to know (a) if there is anything published about the shift points on the 9 tronic in these cars, (2019 E450). I think that would ground my ear to the rpms of the manufacturer designed shift points, e.g. "sounds like feels like I need to shift at around 4k rpms" the book says the same." (b) assuming that there is nothing published by MBZ on this what is the experience of the group, i.e. around what rpm do you find it needs to be upshifted? Next, where are you folks finding that you spend most of your time, e.g. between 2nd and 6th/ 2nd and 8th? Are 8/9 really just overdrives for spirited interstate cruising. Thanks in advance.

ua549

Here are the gear ratios.

Keith66

Like you, I've had many manual tranny cars and trucks (3M, 4M, 5M, 6M). For this car with a 9A, the only time I switch to manual is when I'm pushing the car in curves and want to hold a specific gear through the corners or for engine braking like you say.

Otherwise (for me at least), manually shifting a 9-speed is just too much going on where it takes so much focus on shifting it takes away from driving the car.

This is especially true while drag racing, you almost need another person who's only focus is shifting the car while you drive it, lol. Leaving it in auto is going to yield better results because the gear changes come so quickly and often.

JMO.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

I can't count more than the fingers on my right hand, so I really don't care how many gears there are. BUT, if you are unhappy with the shift performance of the transmission or throttle responsiveness, I recommend you check out @BenzNinja transmission activation mod where he tweaks the throttle input, enables Sport+/Agility and Manual modes, and sets the startup to the last mode used. It made a HUGE difference with my 2015 SL400's drivability and responsiveness.

Keith66

Another point to add here, if you are entering manual mode through the steering wheel paddles, this is only "quasi-manual" and the TCU will still intervene to automatically upshift or downshift as a protection mechanism. It will also timeout and dump you back in auto if you are not actively shifting, so you will be fighting the TCU the whole time.

To truly drive as a clutchless manual, you would need a model with the AMG manual shift button. When the manual shift button is active, it is true manual. The TCU will not intervene and it will hold a gear at the rev limiter until things start to break if you wanted to. It will also not timeout and dump you into auto, it will remain true manual until you deactivate it.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

The transmission configuration programming offered by @BenzNinja will do the same WRT fixed manual mode selection. You do not need the AMG manual shift button.

Keith66

Holding the car in manual mode can also be achieved through the Individual Agility setting by choosing Manual. However, the TCU will still intervene and automatically upshift or downshift, it's not the same as the factory AMG manual shift feature.

Are you saying a non-AMG car can be configured through logic flags to remove the TCU intervention and hold gears at the rev limiter? If so, it would be interesting to see a real-world example of this and would be a cool modification for those that want that similar feature as the AMG models.

Keith66

To add some more color to the conversation, even on my car, if I choose Manual in Individual Agility, when shifting using the paddles, there is sometimes a shifting delay as if the input is being processed through an algorithm first. It will also automatically shift near the rev limiter. It seems that the TCU is still making sure it's the right decision.

When I have the car in the manual mode through the console button, the shifts are immediate and hard and it instantly does whatever I input, even if it's the "wrong" choice. It will also bounce the rev limiter and not automatically shift.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Maybe that’s a question for @BenzNinja but I don’t see the benefit of holding at redline (fuel cut-out) or stalling when coming to a stop.

Keith66

Yeah, that's why I said "To truly drive as a clutchless manual, you would need a model with the AMG manual shift button." because that's how an actual clutchless manual behaves.

But even on mine, the car will not allow itself to stall, it will intervene then.

Also, it not really about redline and stall, it's about having actual manual control of the gear selections without automatic input from the TCU.

City Rat

This is great input and generally gets me intro the zone of the answer that I was looking for. I'm going to wait until its a nice warmish spring day and I can try manual shifting on a twisty mountainous country road that's nearby. If I feel either a noticeable delay between my gear shift input and the transmission's execution then that'll end the experiment. Similarly if I can feel myself fighting the TCU as it keeps sending me back to auto vice quasi-manual, since I don't have the M button, then also end of experiment. The objective here is to check out a possible option for a more fun, spirited drive, not to fight the TCU and get cranky on a nice spring day. Thanks again.

Keith66

Exactly. This is what I was trying to convey, but I may not have communicated clearly enough.

I can only speak to my experiences with the two MB models I've owned, a non-AMG W205 and a AMG W213. In my W205, trying to drive it manually in "Manual" mode was extremely frustrating and disorientating because the TCU kept intervening and changing gears on its own.

Most people don't want to hit the rev limiter (me included) but this is a good test to see if what you're driving is true manual. If the car shifts itself, that is the opposite of manual, obviously. I don't know of any manuals with a clutch that will shift itself at the redline or any other time, lol.

superswiss

Pertaining to the non-AMG models, manual shifting is mostly a gimmick and as said above largely unsatisfying or even frustrating. The only reason the non-AMGs have shift paddles is largely to allow you to hold a gear when driving downhill for example or towing, or keep the transmission from bouncing between gears when driving uphill. As mentioned, most non-AMG models don't have the M button in the center console to activate permanent manual mode. Some allow you to activate permanent manual mode in the Individual mode. If you have the M transmission setting in the Individual mode, then you can configure it and use I* if you want it to stay in manual mode. Otherwise as said the manual mode is only temporarily and it will eventually revert back to automatic mode on its own. Also, as said, non-AMGs don't have a true manual mode, so they still automatically upshift near redline. It's not that people want to bounce off the rev limiter, but the point of the true manual mode is that you don't end up upshifting twice if you try to shift near the redline and the transmission upshifts itself before you hit the paddle and you end up upshifting 2 gears instead of just one.

Now as far as the original question goes. I also come from driving manual transmission for over 20 years. My current AMG is only the second car with an automated transmission. It's worth mentioning that the automatic transmission in most AMG 63 models is different from what you have in your non-AMG. The main difference is that it doesn't have a torque converter and instead has a computer controlled clutch. AMG calls it a multi clutch transmission (MCT). This alone makes it feel and shift much more like a manual transmission, because it's mechanically similar. Same goes for dual clutch transmissions, which are essentially two manual transmissions, one for the even gears and the other for the odd gears and two computer controlled clutches to alternate between them. To differentiate these transmissions it helps to call them automated manual transmissions, because they offer a lot of the same engagement and feel, except you don't have a physical clutch pedal. They are also often called sequential gearboxes, because while you can shift them manually, you have to shift gears in sequence. However, you can also skip gears on downshifts by double-clicking the downshift paddle. Needs a bit of throttle in case of the AMG MCT.

As for shift points and gear ranges. The point of having more gears is to spread the gear ratios. The 9-speed has much shorter gear ratios down low compared to a 5 speed manual transmission. Lower gear ratios help with acceleration and make the car more fun to drive, because you get to shift more often before exceeding the speed limit. But because of the extra gears there are still plenty of overdrive ratios for fuel efficiency. Gear 7-9 are all overdrive ratios (gear ratio < 1). These are cruising gears and 1 through 6 are the driving gears w/ 6th gear being direct drive. In a 6 speed manual, the 6th gear is generally an overdrive gear and 5th is direct drive. So basically for fun driving you use the lower gears only. Treat it essentially as a short ratio 6 speed transmission and simply ignore 7-9. Compared to a 5 or 6 speed manual, you'll find that you generally stay 1 gear higher. So stretches that you would drive in 2nd in a 5 or 6 speed, you'll be in 3rd instead to be roughly at the same rpm, simply because of the shorter ratios and you have shorter gear ratios available to rip it. Hope this helps somewhat.