MNIAW

Maybe not relevant, maybe it is....

I was in the Army from 1982 to 2002. I was a helicopter pilot, a tanker, and a motor officer (everything from tanks to jeeps). The Army used to change oil and filters on a service interval (miles or months). They were wasting billions of dollars over the years because they were changing oils and filters unnecessarily. So they invested in oil analysis and then only changed oils and filters when the analysis called for it. We rarely changed oils and filters after that. M1 tanks run turbine engines and obviously in tough environments. All Army helicopters run turbine engines, again, in tough environments. The trucks were all diesel (when I first started, we had a couple of gasoline-powered Dodge pickup trucks). I never saw an engine failure that was attributed to bad oil. In 20 years.

The moral of my story is, unless you can produce evidence (one way or the other) like the Army did, you just don't know if your hypotheses are correct. I've owned cars for 46 years. I've never changed my oil early. I had just under 300K miles on a Volvo 740GL when the transmission throwout bearing failed. At that point, a rebuilt transmission would have been 3X the value of the car so we said farewell. Every other car I've owned has gone past 150K (except the first car I owned, a 1978 Ford Fairmont Futura - what a POS). Always changed the oil on the manufacturers' recommendations. Despite my experience, I'm still thinking that correlation does not equal causation. Was I lucky? I don't know.

So do what your heart desires and live with the outcomes.

streborx

As I look back on 50 years of technology evolution, I see many inventions that have come and gone (fax machines, floppy disks, projection TVs, to name just a few), and the proliferation of "throw-away". Appliances were once repairable -- now they're designed to last 2 years, can't be disassembled and are cheaper to replace. Throw-away now doesn't even mean your current device no longer works -- it means you "need" an 84" 4K curved wide-screen TV because your 72" TV is almost 18 months old. Every time I take packaging containers to recycle, the pile of surplused electronics is overwhelming. And the pile isn't old tube TVs and dial telephones -- most of it is stuff less than 5 years old. It's all worthless because it's out of date -- you can't give it away on ebay even if you offer to pay shipping. This throw-away practice began with inexpensive devices and has evolved up the scale. The guy in the YouTube video postulates that cars are approaching this throw-away sector, and I think he's right. Owner #1 sheds his 2 year old car because it lacks the latest technology. Owner #2 buys it and drives it until a major repair is on the horizon. Owner #3 buys it until the major repair stops it dead in its tracks. Wash, rinse, repeat. Car executives understand this and their products are designed to serve this market paradigm. Recommended service intervals somehow tie into this, and not to a market where a car is owned by one person for the car's useful life.

The_Judge

Read the whole thig. It says, "The following charts detail required service times for the model year 2010 and newer Mercedes Benz vehicles.

L1Wolf

Car manufacturers such as MB know that the majority of their customers lease the vehicles for at most 3 years. The vast majority of those customers couldn't be bothered to care about oil change intervals or any maintenance. Pushing the limits of modern engines and oil changes to 10K is both a marketing decision and a liability decision. They do not want you keeping the car for 200K over 15 years. That means they don't have a repeat customer. Instead, they want you to lease for max 3 years and then get another new car. Rinse and repeat. Then the used car - oops my bad - the certified pre-owned car can be sold again and a boatload of money made on repairs not to mention the limited extended warranties. They design these maintenance intervals to get past the initial manufacture warranty. That's it!

This oil argument is as old as cars with engines. While everyone else argue over who is right and wrong. I change my oil every 5K and sometimes less using quality oil that match the manufacturer's specifications of type, viscosity, and certification. I change it myself. Why, because I like to. My 2012 E350 lasted 14 years and 170K miles before I totaled it. It ran and looked like it was new and would have easily gone another 130K over 10 years had I not hydroplaned and hit a tractor-trailer. I hope to have my new 2025 E450 for at least 15 years and 200K before considering a new car. That may be a 2040 and likely electric which will give us all sorts of new stuff to disagree on. Maybe one thing we could all agree on. Take care of your stuff, it will last longer.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Not a fact, but an opinion (or outright deception) when it comes to motor oil. Synthetic oils will outlast and out-perform conventional oils under virtually all conditions. Being synthetically produced, they have much more uniform molecules and therefore more even and consistent wear. That's why they can claim longer useable life. But the introduction of GDI and turbocharging of virtually all new cars has placed added stress on the oil that wasn't present in "older" cars, and by older I mean 30-40 years old. So, if you can use a synthetic oil in your naturally aspirated engine for 10,000 miles, don't believe it will wear and breakdown the same on a turbo engine. But, if manufacturers provided different maintenance schedules for their turbo and non-turbo cars, the uninformed will ask why and create a lot of headaches for the manufacturer. It's much easier to have a single maintenance schedule to manage customer perceptions. (Have you wondered why AMG cars, with the most modern of engines, transmissions, and differentials have the most aggressive of maintenance plans? Spend some time on the AMG forums and try telling them to change oil every 10,000 miles.)

If by "most of us have" you mean the group of people who believe the manufacturer in all things over season experts, then I guess you are right. I suppose you think the ECO Start/Stop function is good for your engine and has nothing to do with helping the manufacturer hit mandated fleet mileage targets.

Again, what is your engine model designation because I'm pretty sure we have fundamentally the same engine?

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Understood. I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out that a prepaid maintenance plan benefits from long change intervals. IF the oil change interval was 5,000 miles, the dealer would absorb twice the cost of doing it every 10,000 miles.

L1Wolf

First, thank you for your service.

Do you know what the oil analysis said in terms of oil change interval. Was it different for every vehicle or did it create an average based on some pattern where all vehicles in a class had their oil changed at the same interval? I did many of PMCS's in my short 3 years of service and I don't recall that far back (86-89) what the oil change intervals were for any of my vehicles. The Army drives their vehicles hard and in harsh environments. While in combat, a broken vehicle can get solders killed. Given this, I would think they are the standard bearer when it comes to maintenance of vehicles. That said, they are also very capable of fixing even the most severe issues in the field. I watched an M1A1 have the entire engine replaced in the field during a training exercise. I'm guessing it was due to bad oil - joking. The point is, unless you know the interval each vehicle is getting the oil changed, it's hard to use the Army as an anecdote to this conversation. Saying "we rarely changed oils and filters" is too general and doesn't take into consideration time, miles driven, or the conditions driven in. It also doesn't take into consideration the life span of the vehicle. Perhaps the best advice is that you should not rely on the manufactures recommendation but instead, use oil analysis to determine what your vehicle's oil interval should be.

ua549

Family sedan type turbo cars have been around for more than 60 years. IIRC my first turbo sedan was an Oldsmobile in '64 or '65. I had turbo BMWs, Mazdas and Mercedes more than 45 years ago. The stress on oil was there long before Mobile 1 synthetic oil was introduced 50 years ago. Neither turbos nor synthetic oil is new!

L1Wolf

Just curious - what did you decide to do?

JTK44

Contra point: I think you are DEAD WRONG:

In all manufacturer's recommendation there is a safety factor of at least 50% built in. Manufacturers know most people do not religiously follow maintenance suggestions. So when they say every 10,000 miles, there is a safety factor built in of at least 50%.: no damage is done up until 15,000.

I have no idea, except some youtube videos, where you came to the erroneous conclusion that 10,000 intervals is the bare minimum when in fact 10,000 miles has a safety factor of at least 50% built in.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

True, but we are seeing a lot more cars being turbocharged now than in the past. I have a 20 year old turbo Audi with over 250,000 miles on the original K04 turbo. I didn't mean that turbos are a new invention, but that they are being used more to offset the smaller engines. I really do think the long change intervals is more marketing driven than engineering driven. It's hard to sell potential new customers that more maintenance (and expense) is necessary when they have gotten used to the promise of less maintenance. Plus, engine oil producers claiming their oil is good for 20,000 miles doesn't help.


Oh, yeah, the asterisk says to change according to the manufacturer if you are still under warranty. And the 20k mileage guarantee is good for 20,000 miles OR 1 year, confirming that the is a time limit on oil once put in the engine.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Sure, try to make that argument when trying to make a warranty claim. "You said I needed to change the oil every 10,000 miles or once a year, but you really meant 15,000 miles or 18 months."

By the way, you still haven't identified the model designation for your E450's engine. Do you even know what it is? Do you even change your own oil? Brake pads and rotors? Transmission service? Any suspension components? I know you just learned to change your air filters. Just wondering how much maintenance you actually do on your car.

JTK44

As I am sure you know, that for a warranty claim to be denied, the manufacturer must show and/or prove that the failure to adhere to the recommended maintenance was the cause of the failure. So not changing your oil every year would have no effect on a malfunctioning AC unit, transmission, etc.

MNIAW

The Army did away with oil change service intervals in 1984 or 1985 (foggy memory). We took oil samples every 3 months on ground vehicles and sent them to the AOAP (Army Oil Analysis Program) lab. If the sample came back good, you just scheduled the next sample. There were no oil and filter service intervals at all. On helicopters, we took oil samples on the engines and transmissions every 100 flight hours. They were quite a bit different and had magnetic "chip" detectors...those were visually checked every 10 hours for metal shavings and we had warning lights in the cockpit if a chip was detected in-flight. The chip detectors had a burn-off function so that really fine shavings would not cause a flight disruption. We only did oil changes if the lab said to do it or every 500 flight hours (for the UH-60 Blackhawk - pretty sure it was the same for the AH-64 Apache since they had essentially the same engines).

On the M1 tank, the reason for an engine change was more likely the transmission...they were changed as a single unit and designed to be changed in the field and very quickly. During the actual combat phase of Desert Storm, one of our Blackhawks ingested an MRE bag and it trashed a $700K GE turboshaft engine. Our Maintenance Officer flew it to an Aviation Maintenance unit that was about 100 miles away (on the remaining engine...even the A-model Blackhawks easily had that capability when empty) and he was back with the new engine installed in under 4 hours.

Affalterback

I think it all factors and comes down to how we drive. If you cruise at 65 mph like my 92 year old grandma does, I think changing your oil every 10,000 miles is okay. If you drive more spirited and try to break the law on purpose like some of us doing 100 mph on the highway, then obviously a more frequent maintenance schedule is needed to make sure your engines oil/filter/spark plugs etc are in tip top shape.

I drive about 60,000-65,000 miles a year and I can notice better fuel economy and noise/engine characteristics when I change my oil more frequently. I started changing my oil at the 5,000 mile mark strictly because I can tell a difference in the smell/color of the oil when driving more aggressively. It smells more burnt when I change at 10,000 miles vs @ 5,000 miles. The color is also a lot darker at 10,000 miles vs 5,000 miles. Probably nothing wrong with changing it at 10K, but the peace of mind I get is all that matters.

At the end of the day this back and forth is useless until one of us steps up to the plate and does testing. One of you should change at 10K and the other at 5K, take samples of the oil and send it into a company to check what's inside. Then do the opposite and change it at 5K and 10K and check again. That will answer all of your questions and worries.

MB2timer

In ‘84 the OH-58 fleet was on a 25 hour oil sample schedule. You could take it +/- 5 hours. The oil program I remember was a SOAP Oil Analysis Program. The oil was a vegetable derivative and designated Mil-L-23699. And no, just because it was a vegetable derived oil didn’t mean you could cook with it out in the field, as a field expedient substitute. There was also a fuel sample program.

ygmn

Just do whatever you want; 1k, 2k 3k 5k 7.5K 10K never...
your car your
your wallet
your life.

No correct answer as all cars not equal even if they came off same line one after the other -
one may have issues and be in the shop all the time while the other goes 200k mile before anything breaks.
Sometimes there is a "Popular" issue with a model/engine car - yet you are lucky and never have that issue.

As forrest Gump said: $h!7 happens.

Yes changing oil sooner is probably good for engine
But
Everytime you change the oil you increase the chance of having issues -
cracked filter housing you did not see or leaky -ring
Drain pan plug stripped - drips
Drop the little oil bottle cap seal thingy down the oil fill hole.
Spill a quart/liter of oil downe engine trying to pour it in.
break some engine sensor wire.
Forget to put a cap back on.
on and on I can go
SCRATCHED the paint leaning over a fender.

TO each his own.....

MNIAW

One thing I learned from my experience with oil analysis is that the color and smell of engine oil has nothing to do with its lubrication and viscosity properties. Transmission oil is a different story but your eyes and nose cannot tell if engine oil is doing its job or not.

Your list (along with cost) was the exact reason the Army changed how it maintained its fleet. They didn't care so much about the scratched fender but overmaintaining a vehicle is also bad. I realize that is going to upset some people but it's an absolute fact. Not everyone is meticulous enough (including professional mechanics) to avoid the problems associated with overdoing it.

MNIAW

Now that you mention it, we might have been on a 25-hour sample interval in the UH-60 as well...just too long ago. Yeah, you definitely did not want to cook with 23699.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

I agree. Nobody has to do what I do. But the OP asked a question, and I provided what I thought was a benign and prudent answer. From there, it went downhill.

Asking the dealer what maintenance they recommend is just collecting data to make an informed decision. It allows someone to independently research what was recommended and then decide what to do. If the dealer is recommending something they can't justify, it may be a clear indication not to trust that dealer. My dealer has always been good, taking the time to answer my questions or finding answers if necessary.

I appreciate the discussion about the Army and the evolution of its maintenance program. It seems the approach was scientific and logical, but I would like to know how successful it was or is. Did the cost of performing the oil analysis save money in the end? Probably so. Did it improve the operation readiness of the vehicles? Dunno. Still, military vehicles and aircraft are not the same as personal use cars and trucks, so I will stick with my mileage-based approach. (I will admit the Chrysler/Dodge 5/4 Ton of the 70s and 80s was generally a failed experiment of converting a consumer-based product for military use. As my motor officer would say, "They're a piece of crap.")

MNIAW

I don't think the Army would have continued the AOAP if it wasn't saving money. Despite what people think, people in the upper echelons of the Army were very aware and cognizant of the cost of all programs and wouldn't waste money because waste might lead to cancelled necessary systems. As far as the effectiveness, as I said, I never saw a single engine failure attributed to bad oil. Doesn't mean it didn't happen but I watched PM Magazine pretty closely and that publication was a gold mine of great information.

Dodges are Dodges; piece of crap then and... The Chevy CUC-V (Commercial Utility Combat Vehicle) models were great except for the tires on the Blazer which had a very unfortunate tendency to disintegrate above 70mph. The pickup trucks were great. I lived in one for months at a time when I was the helicopter liaison to an Infantry battalion. I know my First Sergeant was very reluctant to trade in his Blazer for a HMMV when we had deployed to Saudi Arabia for the first Gulf War. He did take the front seats out of the Blazer and put them in his HMMV; typical Army ingenuity.

MB2timer

I can support what MNIAW has observed. A gas turbine engine is somewhat of an oversized turbocharger, although its top rpm is generally about half of a turbocharger. No engine failures due to oil contamination or degradation. Same for about half of the motor pool. The 2&1/2 ton trucks, along with the 5 ton wreckers were all turbocharged diesels. The Jeeps(M151s) were normally aspirated 4 cylinder engines, which comprised the rest of the motor pool wheeled inventory. Those turbochargers got a workout, and frequently spun at top rpm for extended periods of time.

Baltistyle

I don’t know that they were saving money (even that the army did the analysis, there is cost) but saving on waste and labor. Four oil analysis a year would exceed an oil change cost for most people and car sized engines. The analysis is the way to go and we have seen others in the large boat maintenance business remark that that is how they monitored oil as well since they were talking about hundreds or thousands of gallons for those large engines.

For those wondering about older turbocharging and saying what’s different, those had port injected engines and different oils that were less about the mpg. Gdi is mentioned as as a culprit, and have to remember that those clean ports, big iron sleeves and relatively thicker oil played a big part, perhaps in some cases but those engines didn’t last 200k like a modern engine. My turbo Audi had the K03 go out by 90k and I changed the oil often even back then (2001).

turbo tech and cooling has come a long way to not cook the oil as badly upon shutdown.

better turbos but dirty valves and pcvs and thin cylinders

Affalterback

It 100% can tell you a lot. Dirtier oil is usually darker (obviously). No one can tell me that clearer/lighter colored oil changed at 5,000 miles is not better than darker colored + burnt smelling oil at 10,000.

Maybe an oil analysis won't tell you those exact characteristics, but they will tell you iron/metal/break down of each element that's found in the oil. Obviously the less frequently you change the oil and the longer the engine runs that same oil, the more deposits and break down of it's viscosity it'll have. Doesn't mean that it's not usable up to 10,000 or even 15,000 miles. It just tells us it's not as clean as newer oil.

Maybe @JettaRed is onto something after all.

MNIAW

I divulged my bona fides, perhaps you can do the same? What is your background and expertise that allows you to make such a claim?

Even a $35 oil analysis from Blackstone will tell you if the viscosity is holding up, not just metal content. What does the color of the oil have to do with it's design purpose (to keep friction from wearing down engine components)?

As I said further up in this thread, do what your heart desires and live with the results.