Ok, so we agree here. They removed "AMG optimized the hybrid system" from C/E class, and left it only in AMG. As if I put my old W205 on Sport and drive like this I can charge battery to 100% easily. Same would happen in Comfort mode but very slowly. That is what never happens on W214, because when you start car and you put it in Battery Hold or Sport, you can drain battery and than it will charge it back, but it will never exceed this LEVEL of charge it was when you put it in this mode.

I suppose you can put it this way, yes. But the reason they "removed" it, is because it goes counter to the efficiency goals for non-AMGs.

So next they will remove "sport" mode, as I it is also goes counter to the efficiency goals for non-AMGs?

I know I said lets stop talking about performance. But I want to just explain my "incorrectness". When I sit in car and go into Engine info, I see there 400hp and 700Nm gauges, when I press hard on gas pedal, I see it goes upto about 390hp and 650Nm. As I understood it is wrong as curves of ICE and electric motor can not be connected together, does it mean the car lies to me?

I hope I don’t get caught in the crossfire of the thread by saying, my car is a mild hybrid. I can live with that, even if I don’t entirely understand what that means.

Don't say that out loud, because that's absolutely a possibility. So far the authorities in charge still allow these less efficient modes. They are exempt from WLTP etc., but for how much longer?

Yes, that screen is mostly a video game. The only way to measure torque and power is to put the car on a dyno. What you see on that screen is a mathematical model simulation to make you feel good about your car.

All this really comes down to one thing. AMG/Performance PHEVs are optimized for performance and non-performance PHEV are optimized for efficiency. It's not about what they removed or didn't remove. It's all just a matter of what they optimize for in the specific models. You don't like what they optimized the E400e for, so basically it's the wrong car for you. You should have done your due diligence and buy a different car that meets your expectations.

I don't know if there is something in other countries (it is coming...), but in Germany it is now about 1000e per year for basic features of the car, like DIGITAL LIGHT statup animations. So yea, I will sell it later when my subscriptions will start to expire and buy another brand and not PHEV.

I hate you...........

Ok, so I did some experiments with the car and can for sure say that you are not right. Indeed it is calculated values, but car is much more performance than standard car. If you think I am wrong I am welcoming you to around Frankfurt on main so I will show you it in person or I would recommend you to take a test drive.
Also seems I was wrong saying about battery level limit, it seems it just depends on road cituatios and style of driving, but I was driving in Prague in sport mode today and saw my battery level increased from 46 to 52% over the range of about 10km. And I was driving aggressively using all 600Nm. I think hp can not be just added together as maximum hp is only on some rpm. But torgue is momentary value and can be added together.

For a reasonable discussion of the different systems: Note the additional cost of $10K: only "tree huggers" will be buying this hybrid: you will never, I repeat never recover the additional cost of $10K in fuel savings. The article points out the downside, 700 pounds of dead weight once the battery has run out of power.

2025 Mercedes-Benz GLC350e Luxury SUV First Drive: Best of Both Worlds

see: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...tm_campaign=MT

Well, buying any new car will never cover it costs comparing to just driving old car I did not buy PHEV for saving money, only for performance and fuel saving and ability to utilize solar panels on sunny weather. The problem is that now on new generation of car we have to make sure the battery is never empty.

I'm in Frankfurt all the time, but I don't need to do a test drive. As I said in a previous post, the e-motor assists the ICE at times. You are not wrong on that point. You get the instant torque, instead of having to wait for the turbo to spool first. I think this horse is dead. We have about exhausted the discussion.

Yes we can all agree that it is cheaper to drive an old car than a new car.

My point is that a hybrid GLC costs $10,000 more than an otherwise identical GLC and has worse performance. Further driving the hybrid is not cost free, unless you already have solar in your house. As there is no performance advantage, the only advantage is an environmental one - but even that is dubious at best: I drive about 8,000 miles a year: 60% highway trips 40% local. So 40% will help the environment. However, the other 60% will be using an ICE with now lower mpg vs. standard GLC, increasing the pollution vs. a standard GLC as I will be using more fuel!

II am sure there is some environmental advantage, but not as much as one would have thought and certainly not enough to justify an additional $10,000 with worse performance.

Hope this clarifies

The issue is even worse than that. Many PHEVs are never being plugged in and just driven like an ICE. It's a well known problem especially in Germany where OP lives. Companies get huge tax breaks for buying PHEVs as company cars for their employees, but the majority never plugs them in, so they are just driven as much less efficient ICE vehicles.

No, it would not. My s206 charges perfectly in BH and Sport modes. Last time it has charged to 13 percent in just 250 kms on freeway.
More. The "0 percent charge" you may see is not really a ZERO. There is approximately 20-25 percent reserve needed for 1) gas engine starting since there is no 12 volt starter, 2) accelerations.
When accelerating, you can easily see how the electric drive helps the gas engine in ANY mode, comfort or sport or BH.
In comfort mode the car will also charge the battery when "gliding". Can be helped even more with steering wheel paddles (the one with MINUS makes charging even stronger, I always use this when going downhill). Electric cars do not like the constant pressure on throttle pedal, they shine on backroads and in cities.
If your car behaves differently then it is probably a malfunction.

Count me in.

Like MB2timer I have a mild hybrid. I drive mostly highway driving and generally I drive 70 miles an hour and I'm averaging 32 miles per gallon. I'm happy with those numbers.

I've been considering buying a new car and I've considered a plug-in hybrid. After reading this post, I'm less inclined to do that. Thank you Superswiss! I always lear from you. I considered a e53 but the low sidewalls are problematic with NY potholes.
Because my car stopped on the side of the road four times in three years (the 12V battery problem), I've been looking at other cars with more reliability. I could be wrong but I believe the Lexus RX charges the battery while driving and when breaking. It lacks a lot of features offered by the Mercedes, but the idea of breaking down the highway repeatedly is making me rethink whether I should buy another Mercedes. ( I have driven Mercedes for 45 years)

Just in case you're interested, I'm trying to find a Mercedes mechanic to teach me how to take apart the car and replace the 12 v battery (and I believe the alternator), myself. If I can learn how to do that I will stay with Mercedes.
t

Hi there. I was wondering...could I ask you for some advice, guys ? Thank you in advance. It's about buying W213 plug-in-hybrid..
Best regards
Aleksandar

You're fine. Everyone likes a mild hybrid. In a mild hybrid, you have a small battery that charges as you drive around. You don't charge the battery in your garage. A mild hybrid battery and motor are there, but you don't think about them. The mild hybrid gets better fuel economy, a little bit of performance improvement, smoother engine auto stop/start, plus some engineering benefits like not needing a separate starter motor. There are more positives than negatives for a mild hybrid system.

The debate on the W214 forum is if a plug-in electric hybrid is the dumbest design in the history of mankind or if it is the best of both worlds. The answer mostly depends on how far you drive your car each day and if it is on the highway or on local roads. Automotive philosophy is also a point of argument. The car in question in this thread is the prior generation PHEV E400e, not the mild hybrid. The discussion on this W214 forum has been about the E53 PHEV. Although, you will not be in the crossfire with the mild hybrid, let's get into the discussion on the E53 PHEV.

To summarize the plug-in-hybrids are the dumbest idea ever argument: When your battery is charged, you are driving around on battery with a dead weight ICE that is off until you run out of battery. After depleting the battery, the battery is dead weight while you use the ICE. Dead weight reduces gas MPG and electric range, increases stopping distances and makes road-holding worse. You also have to go to the gas station to fill the gas tank and need to charge the battery at home each night. The two systems add mechanical complexity and a chance for something to break. Some folks on this side of the argument drive extensively on the highway past the 40 miles of electric range of the E53. As their daily mileage exceeds 40 miles per day, the PHEV efficiency benefits reduce. The E53 costs more than the E450 mild hybrid. The extra cost of the E53 is not going to be recovered in gasoline cost savings. Folks on this side of the argument say the E450 mild hybrid accelerates quickly (it does) and is efficient in highway MPG. The added expense of the E53 is not worth it over the already excellent E450 or E350.

To summarize the plug-in-hybrids best of both worlds point of view: You can drive to town or train station and back on environmentally friendly electricity, but if you go on a 400-mile trip you don't have to worry about battery range anxiety. If you are primarily driving locally, you can charge in your garage each night and not have to worry about filling up the gas tank every week. The PHEV excels in gas efficiency if you are driving 40 miles or less per day or slightly over 40 miles per day. Folks on this side of the argument say the PHEV is ideal for work commutes and daily driving, but there is no range anxiety when doing a 400 mile trip. In the E53, the PHEV configuration is setup to add performance, not just increase efficiency. The battery retains enough charge to use the electric motor during performance acceleration, even if the battery for normal driving is at 0% state-of-charge. Most of the time you are driving around using 20 horsepower, but the rare times when you need all 577/604 horsepower, the electric motor can add 161 horsepower to the ICE power. The electric motor can give you 161 of horsepower for acceleration even if it doesn't have enough charge to give you 20 horsepower for maintaining speed once you ease up on the go pedal. People arguing this side say that the PHEV complexity is not much more than that of the mild hybrid, which is the only other option in the E-Class. People purchasing the E53 over the E450 are paying more for performance, not more for efficiency. If most of your mileage is local, you will use much less gasoline, which is a nice benefit but not the primary selling point of the E53.

There are legitimate points to both of the arguments on the E53 PHEV. Another argument is to look at the specifications. According to Car and Driver, the E53 sedan with Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires does 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, a quarter mile in 11.6 seconds at 120 MPH, brakes from 70-0 in 154 feet, has 0.94g of roadholding on a 300 foot skidpad, and gets 64 MPGe/29 MPG on the 75 MPH highway test. Car and Driver measured a range of 44 miles in EV mode and 500 miles in hybrid mode. (500 miles of range seems optimistic to me, but they tested the car.) The performance characteristics and efficiency characteristics of the E53, which is based on a luxury sedan E-class, are objectively impressive regardless of your views on the E53's drivetrain.

I don't understand the trend of going for massive wheels and no sidewall on the tires. Low profile sidewalls are fine in Texas, but in NY you will be buying some new wheels or getting stuck on the side of the road a few times. The best option on the E53 is going with the 19" winter wheel package. Since the battery is under the trunk there is no space for a spare tire.

Having to pull the car off the road four times in three years, due to a 12V battery issue is not normal for a Mercedes. It sounds like there is something wrong with that particular car. I would be tempted to go to a Lexus after that. Until then, have you had multiple dealers try to get to the root of the problem?

Unless you go for a Porsche SUV, chances are that your performance car will have low profile sidewalls. It's unfortunate that the choices are to have a performance car with low profile tires or a reliable appliance that can survive potholes.

My joke about the E450 All-Terrain is that it can handle all terrain except NY roads.

I drove 1500 miles in my W214 E53 over the last several days. Started out with a full tank of gas and a full HV battery charge and drove in Comfort mode. On two segments of the trip we drove 405 miles without stopping to fill up or charge. In both cases we arrived with 130+ miles of range displayed on the fuel gauge and 0% SoC on the battery. 500 miles of range is easily achieved in the E53 sedan.

In the Winter we were getting about 32 miles of range in EL mode. In the Summer we saw as much as 60 miles range in EL mode. Depending upon the city/highway driving ratio we have been getting between 100 and 190 miles in Comfort mode before fully depleting the battery. The car continues to toggle between ICE and EV mode even when the SoC is 0%.

I don't regret getting the E53. I prefer the exterior appearance of the E53 over the E450 and it's a blast to drive. However, I miss the Airmatic suspension available in the E450 and wish the E53 could be ordered with 19" wheels.

This is an old thread but I'll put in my $0.02

I drive an Audi RS etron GT. It's a phenomenal vehicle with incredible acceleration. I have no range anxiety and I have Level 2 charging at my house so I leave the house with 160+ miles range every time and that is plenty for my daily commute.

I bought my daughter a GLC 350e and it's a fantastic powertrain. She drives it in 98% electric mode and she also charges from a level 2 charger at the house every night. The EV motor is plenty for in town and on highway if you don't want to push the car. But it's also nice that she doesn't have to worry about a weekend where she needs to go a few hundred miles or if we need to take it out of town or when she'll take it to college and will have limited access to charging infrastructure. She loves the smoothness of the electric powertrain. We didn't buy it to save money, I bought it because it fits her use case perfectly and saves tremendous amount of time with not having to fill up hardly ever. It's a luxury.

The motor and engine work in unison and can provide power together as needed on the highway. The system works wonderfully. Once it's depleted it works like a regular hybrid and will recuperate and save some gas. It's not a performance car.

We ordered an E53 Wagon for my wife to replace her A6 Allroad. We got the E53 because of its performance. For $15k over the All-terrain is worth it to us. She has rear steering on the Allroad so we wanted it on the new wagon too. The PHEV will fit her commute. She'll mostly keep it in EV mode and I'll be able to open it up on the weekends when we want to go out of town.

We also have a W212 wagon that we absolutely love and put over 240k miles on. For us PHEV and it's convenience of charging at home just absolutely worth it.

I will also add that the added weight of the batteries and motor of a PHEV compared to an ICE vehicle and its impact on your fuel efficiency will depend on the type and length of driving you do. While the extra weight will negatively impact rolling resistance, rolling resistance and its impact on overall fuel consumption is the largest in stop and go traffic and lower speeds. And these are precisely the situation where having an EV powertrain help the most and offset the consumption loss by regeneration and EV drive mode benefits. At highway speeds the rolling resistance component is far outweighed by the wind resistance and this is where its impact is felt the least, it is also here where you get the least benefit of a hybrid powertrain, an engine in its optimal power band doing a steady pace with no braking is pretty decent compromise. This is why regular hybrids or the short range EVs in the vast majority of the US where one way commute generally involves 20+ ,miles on a highway doing 75 mph simply don't make sense. You would hardly ever get the benefits of the hybrid powertrain yet you'd get all the problems and costs.

The new longer range PHEVs like the GLC 350e or the E53 are starting to make sense, even in the US and they absolutely make perfect sense in Europe. Unfortunately the incentive structure in Europe set them up where corporate entities would buy them for the tax break and then never charge them so they never even came close to the WLTP expected 44% of EV miles and hover more around 19% in the aggregate, which is abysmal. But, these fleet vehicles will find their way into the hands of private owners in a few years where they will likely fare much better and will be used as a proper PHEV so the short term benefit may not be there, the long term one just might materialize.

Also, the P stands for Plug-in in PHEV. You're meant to plug it in. If you don't plug it in, you should not have bought one. On the GLC the 300 has a better acceleration number than the 350e. But the 350e feels a lot quicker and torquier in town even in EV only mode. If you don't have a Level 2 charging capability at your home, don't buy a PHEV, it's that simple.

Now manufacturers are trying different things, and many of these things are not for user benefit or experience but for regulatory compliance. PHEVs are largely the result of this and not the result of manufacturers wants or customer's needs. And they will do different things and evolve as manufacturers learn new things or run into new regulations. The "forced EV mode" in start-up is not to the user's benefit. It's so manufacturer's can meet compliance and can claim that any deviation is the user's choice. We want loud and powerful V8s but the regulations want quiet EVs or 4-bangers. It's about our aggregate liberties. And the liberties of the whole to a quiet city are far outweighing the liberties of me driving a loud V8 down the street. Walking this tight rope as a manufacturer can be difficult and they sometimes get it wrong, just as regulations and incentives can have unintended consequences.

I'm sorry that OP feels the new vehicle is significantly worse than their old one. To me it is not. It is a fantastic powertrain that navigates the regulatory landscape and provides the luxury of hardly ever having to fill up perfectly as long as the vehicle is used as intended.

Plus the mild-hybrid also eliminates a bunch of mechanical drive-belts, eliminates the alternator etc. Also powers the Airmatic (if equipped with it), without having to draw from other power sources. Additionally, also powers a bunch of other power drawing items like the A/C etc., when in standby mode. To me, there's no negative to the mild-hybrid system, and everything about it is a win. And of course provides the torque-fill, as the main single-turbo is spooling up, thus removing the rubber-band power delivery effect of a single-large-turbo car.

Most manufacturers that have adopted mild-hybrid systems have also eliminated a turbocharger along with its related plumbing, going from two to one, further simplifying and cutting parts count.

Weight is a downside, as the battery generally outweighs all of the parts eliminated with the mild-hybrid system. And there is the argument that increasing battery production is not helping the environment, especially when mild-hybrid fuel efficiency benefits are dubious in my experience...though I do enjoy the system's contribution to low end torque and overall powertrain smoothness.