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This is somewhat along the lines of what I've been criticizing about the charging infrastructure. Not necessarily the third place concept. I'm not sure who would go to hang out with a friend while both needed to charge their cars. But what I've been advocating are turning charging stations into more than a few chargers out in the middle of nowhere w/o even a roof to protect one from the elements. This has caught on particularly in Europe where charging stations are now turned into charging hubs with roofs just like gas stations and a lounge or something nearby where you can spend the time while waiting for your car to charge. I'm not sure why this hasn't been obvious from the beginning.
But still, I don't quite see how charging hubs would become a place to hang and socialize outside of meeting other random EV owners and strike up a conversation. As said, I don't see friends meet at a charging station to hang. It's also yet further proliferation of the car dependence in the USA and driving everywhere instead of investing into local neighborhood places that are within walking distance.
Last edited by superswiss; Oct 28, 2024 at 06:19 PM.
2024 AMG EQE SUV , 2021 E63S Wagon - gone, 2018 E63S Sedan - gone
Originally Posted by superswiss
This is somewhat along the lines of what I've been criticizing about the charging infrastructure. Not necessarily the third place concept. I'm not sure who would go to hang out with a friend while both needed to charge their cars. But what I've been advocating are turning charging stations into more than a few chargers out in the middle of nowhere w/o even a roof to protect one from the elements. This has caught on particularly in Europe where charging stations are now turned into charging hubs with roofs just like gas stations and a lounge or something nearby where you can spend the time while waiting for your car to charge. I'm not sure why this hasn't been obvious from the beginning.
But still, I don't quite see how charging hubs would become a place to hang and socialize outside of meeting other random EV owners and strike up a conversation. As said, I don't see friends meet at a charging station to hang. It's also yet further proliferation of the car dependence in the USA and driving everywhere instead of investing into local neighborhood places that are within walking distance.
Here in NC there are Sheetz and Circle-K gas emporiums which are food stops as well as gas stations. Sheetz is now adding EV charging stations as well. Progress will be made in spite of ICE doubters. The difference between gas and electric is that no ICE owners have gas pumps in their residences while most EV owners have co-located charging stations. It's all a matter of demand. Perhaps nor-cal doesn't have the same issues. I'm personally enjoying a 80% decrease in my energy costs and the convenience of not having to go to a gas station to fill up and waste 1/2 an hour for travel and pump time. The engineer in me
Here in NC there are Sheetz and Circle-K gas emporiums which are food stops as well as gas stations. Sheetz is now adding EV charging stations as well. Progress will be made in spite of ICE doubters. The difference between gas and electric is that no ICE owners have gas pumps in their residences while most EV owners have co-located charging stations. It's all a matter of demand. Perhaps nor-cal doesn't have the same issues. I'm personally enjoying a 80% decrease in my energy costs and the convenience of not having to go to a gas station to fill up and waste 1/2 an hour for travel and pump time. The engineer in me loves this.
Thanks for your perspective.
Not sure how this response relates to what I said. My point was entirely different. It's about making charging stations a place where you don't have to figure out what you gonna do for the next 20 minutes or stand in the pouring rain and finding out the charger doesn't work. Yes, gas stations essentially had this figured out a long time ago. Most gas stations have at least some kind of a mart attached. In fact, gas stations make most of their profit from the mart and not from selling gas. I'm not trying to start another ICE vs EV argument here. You know how you can also save on energy cost? Not having to drive everywhere and live in a neighborhood with a high walking score, so you can do most of your daily errands on foot.
2025 Maserati Grecale Folgore and 2024 Jaguar F-PACE SVR
I like what GRIDSERVE is doing in the UK. Bucees is great but not having to deal with dumb rednecks in diesel pickup trucks would be even better. One of them parked across two chargers in front of Target the other day and busted some glass beer bottles on the ground before leaving too. I don't need that sheet!
2024 AMG EQE SUV , 2021 E63S Wagon - gone, 2018 E63S Sedan - gone
Originally Posted by superswiss
Not sure how this response relates to what I said. My point was entirely different. It's about making charging stations a place where you don't have to figure out what you gonna do for the next 20 minutes or stand in the pouring rain and finding out the charger doesn't work. Yes, gas stations essentially had this figured out a long time ago. Most gas stations have at least some kind of a mart attached. In fact, gas stations make most of their profit from the mart and not from selling gas. I'm not trying to start another ICE vs EV argument here. You know how you can also save on energy cost? Not having to drive everywhere and live in a neighborhood with a high walking score, so you can do most of your daily errands on foot.
And you missed my point. The solution is to take mass transit, right? If you live in an urban area (like SF or NYC) you may not need to drive and you could take mass transit (trains or buses) or walk. Otherwise, impractical the way that communities are constructed around autos. Add the all the times that you traveled to fuel your car and all the time at the pump. My point is I don't have to use public charging if I don't need to charge on the road is never. Almost all of my travel is local. I once visited charge stations twice on a long trip after I had driven 3 hours. Didn't seem excessive.
And you missed my point. The solution is to take mass transit, right? If you live in an urban area (like SF or NYC) you may not need to drive and you could take mass transit (trains or buses) or walk. Otherwise, impractical the way that communities are constructed around autos. Add the all the times that you traveled to fuel your car and all the time at the pump. My point is I don't have to use public charging if I don't need to charge. Almost all of my travel is local. I once visited charge stations twice on a long trip after I had driven 3 hours. Didn't seem excessive.
Nope, didn't miss it. I just didn't engage with it, because it doesn't really have anything to do with the article you posted, does it? The article is about making public chargers a destination to combat the general loneliness, because people have less and less reason to leave their house. Home charging is actually among those reasons, because it's one less thing to leave your house for. If you wanted to have a discussion about home charging and cost of energy, you should have started this thread with a different article, don't you think?
Last edited by superswiss; Oct 28, 2024 at 10:19 PM.
2025 Maserati Grecale Folgore and 2024 Jaguar F-PACE SVR
Back in the day public transportation was great. Nowadays though you have to waive all your rights and allow the government to do unreasonable searches in the name of fatherland, er, um, homeland security. So I'd rather drive there.
Crito kind of beat me to it. Mass transit would be great, if everyone who had access to it were straight out of a Happy Days Norman Rockwell painting. Back in the day, Charles Bronson starred in a series of films that started with “Death Wish” amongst many other classic hit movies. Years later, Bernie Getz took a page out of that series, and just refused to be accosted on the subway. I have tremendous sympathy for those who rely on mass transit in the larger cities. Even the most cultured and civilized riders, if broken down in a crowded subway car, unable to escape, would reach a boiling point. Same for a crowded elevator. A great reason to always take the stairs by the way. I suppose the same thing could be said about road rage. Dallas had an incident recently where a freshly fired employee took out his emotions of being disgruntled, to go postal. He went on a rampage on a freeway. Going postal used to be a thing also, but somehow that seems to have subsided. To make this post align with the topic, how many subway riders would it take, loaded into an EQE SUV(X294) to get the same result?
Last edited by MB2timer; Oct 29, 2024 at 12:27 AM.
Reason: + sentence
To make this post align with the topic, how many subway riders would it take, loaded into an EQE SUV(X294) to get the same result?
What result are we talking about? The problem with all the excuses for public transit is that perception isn't reality. The reality is that the risk of becoming a victim of a crime on public transit is significantly lower than the risk while driving. You are in fact more likely to be car jacked, become a victim of road rage or any other crime on the road than you are to become a victim of a crime on public transit. This has been studied extensively. You are also far more likely to die in a car than you are on public transit. For example bus passengers have 1/60th the fatality rate compared to car occupants. But the general perception is that you are safer in the cocoon of your car than you are on public transit. Unfortunately, the general perception couldn't be more wrong. You are even far less likely to die in a plane, even though it's much more confined in an emergency than even public transit.
A public crime analysis with the most useable statistics (2010), in the Cleveland area, found that mass transit increased property crimes. The fixed-effect model revealed an increase of 2.8%. A pooled OLS model showed a 1.4% increase.
The title of the study was:
John Carroll University
Journal of Economics and Politics
Does Public Transit Affect Crime?
The Addition of a Bus Line in Cleveland.
Morgan Neiss University of Akron.
Intuition would tell us that crowding people together artificially, increases the likelihood that tempers, emotions, delinquency, and mental disorders, would lead to more aggressive confrontations. Also, the prey predator drives would be heightened. Fight or flight instincts would also be corrupted.
A public crime analysis with the most useable statistics (2010), in the Cleveland area, found that mass transit increased property crimes. The fixed-effect model revealed an increase of 2.8%. A pooled OLS model showed a 1.4% increase.
The title of the study was:
John Carroll University
Journal of Economics and Politics
Does Public Transit Affect Crime?
The Addition of a Bus Line in Cleveland.
Morgan Neiss University of Akron.
Intuition would tell us that crowding people together artificially, increases the likelihood that tempers, emotions, delinquency, and mental disorders, would lead to more aggressive confrontations. Also, the prey predator drives would be heightened. Fight or flight instincts would also be corrupted.
I don't know that study, but that also sounds like a different premise. What property crimes are we talking about exactly? One thing is for sure, the more people are mobile, the higher the chance for crime. A lot of poor people can't afford a car, so they can't really get around, but they could more likely afford public transit, so they could get around and potentially commit crimes in other areas. Are you suggesting we should limit mobility for poor people? Just wondering where you are going with this study. My point was from the perspective of a rider on public transit vs being an occupant in a car. What people do when they are able to move around is a different story.
I am not really sure what I am supposed to be defending. Much of my screed is angst in regards to environments, that put a lot of disparate people in close quarters. The phrase “pack them in like sardines” is at the root of unleashing some of the worst aspects of human behavior. In many ways our society and cultures around the world are not evolving, they are devolving. Ideal mass transit would be ideal, if humans were ideal. There are trade offs in almost any system. As an engineer, I am sure I am not telling you anything new there. I guess all I am saying is that for me, when I consider the trade offs in mass transit, I see a net negative. If we had ideal people to plug into mass transit systems, it would be a massive net positive.
Has anyone ever taken trains in Japan? Long distance, or the subway. Spotlessly clean, everyone is polite, crime is zero, on time to the second. If you dropped your wallet on the ground, someone would literally chase you down to give it back to you. Why is our public transport so bad? What has happened to us? I used to visit my daughter in NYC...the subways were rolling dumpsters.
2025 Maserati Grecale Folgore and 2024 Jaguar F-PACE SVR
I recall subways full of graffiti, times square was THE place to get a fake ID and 42nd street looked like **** world. Yet I felt free, not like cattle being herded and tagged. The fascist police state needs to stop blaming the people for its **** behavior. They just keep waging war against civilians and I personally have had enough of it.
Keep in mind China has ONE BILLION (over four times 4X) more people than the USA but about the same number of people in jail. Land of the free? Yeah, right!
Has anyone ever taken trains in Japan? Long distance, or the subway. Spotlessly clean, everyone is polite, crime is zero, on time to the second. If you dropped your wallet on the ground, someone would literally chase you down to give it back to you. Why is our public transport so bad? What has happened to us? I used to visit my daughter in NYC...the subways were rolling dumpsters.
Yes, I do regularly. I have family in Japan. About to go there in December. You hit the nail on the head. The problem is not public transportation. The problem are the people and the society here. Everybody for themselves, entitlement, no respect for others. Many resort to stabbing or shooting somebody if they feel disrespected. It's a cancer growing in society that affects all aspects of life. The current politics don't help, with one side blanket vilifying an entire group of people as murderers and criminals.
Last edited by superswiss; Oct 29, 2024 at 01:05 PM.
I am not really sure what I am supposed to be defending. Much of my screed is angst in regards to environments, that put a lot of disparate people in close quarters. The phrase “pack them in like sardines” is at the root of unleashing some of the worst aspects of human behavior. In many ways our society and cultures around the world are not evolving, they are devolving. Ideal mass transit would be ideal, if humans were ideal. There are trade offs in almost any system. As an engineer, I am sure I am not telling you anything new there. I guess all I am saying is that for me, when I consider the trade offs in mass transit, I see a net negative. If we had ideal people to plug into mass transit systems, it would be a massive net positive.
Well I have been on subways in France and my wife in Japan. Nothing to fear there. Maybe it's more a statement about this country rather than generalizations about mass transit.
At the end of the day I see each and everyone of your arguments / disinformation as being ultimately in service of what you want to do... You love driving your gas guzzling ICE so EV's are bad. You want to drive so mass transit is bad etc etc etc.
2024 AMG EQE SUV , 2021 E63S Wagon - gone, 2018 E63S Sedan - gone
Originally Posted by MBNUT1
Well I have been on subways in France and my wife in Japan. Nothing to fear there. Maybe it's more a statement about this country rather than generalizations about mass transit.
At the end of the day I see each and everyone of your arguments / disinformation as being ultimately in service of what you want to do... You love driving your gas guzzling ICE so EV's are bad. You want to drive so mass transit is bad etc etc etc.
Keep in mind China has ONE BILLION (over four times 4X) more people than the USA but about the same number of people in jail. Land of the free? Yeah, right!
China also has the highest capital punishment numbers, re-education camps, and labor camps which don't fall into their published numbers, of course executions shouldn't be included anyway.
Speaking of China, here's an interesting article that talks about poor sales for German makers:
Mercedes and Porsche’s Fight With China Is Coming Close to Home https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-byd-in-europe
Well I have been on subways in France and my wife in Japan. Nothing to fear there. Maybe it's more a statement about this country rather than generalizations about mass transit.
At the end of the day I see each and everyone of your arguments / disinformation as being ultimately in service of what you want to do... You love driving your gas guzzling ICE so EV's are bad. You want to drive so mass transit is bad etc etc etc.
I have traveled many a mile on Greyhound, Amtrak, and crowded airlines. Talk about sardines in a can. I have ridden CTA buses. As a reductionist, and an over simplifier, you arrived at a conclusion that was superficial. If you took full context, you would have already seen that I think mass transit COULD be ideal, if people were ideal. The Japanese example is a perfect one. There is a price, though. If you want to park your car somewhere in Tokyo, or other major city, you have to apply for a permit. If you don’t already have a permit, chances are minuscule that you will get one. Now, what exactly is the misinformation you are accusing me of? If you can’t substantiate it, retract it, and apologize for it.
I have traveled many a mile on Greyhound, Amtrak, and crowded airlines. Talk about sardines in a can. I have ridden CTA buses. As a reductionist, and an over simplifier, you arrived at a conclusion that was superficial. If you took full context, you would have already seen that I think mass transit COULD be ideal, if people were ideal. The Japanese example is a perfect one. There is a price, though. If you want to park your car somewhere in Tokyo, or other major city, you have to apply for a permit. If you don’t already have a permit, chances are minuscule that you will get one. Now, what exactly is the misinformation you are accusing me of? If you can’t substantiate it, retract it, and apologize for it.
The link to the range thread was very deceptive by you, because I already posted a reference for that, via a YouTube video.
Then you say others but don’t specify. When you make an accusation, like misinformation, and you don’t provide specifics, you know what that is called, don’t you?
We are obviously at odds with our opinions in the green agenda issues. No need to make that ad hominem.
"It has happened already. Just the bitter cold, as you sit there waiting hours for the pileup to clear the highway, will discharge an EV, and leave the battery fully discharged. Meanwhile an ICE car can start up, warm up, shut down many times on a full tank of gas, and drive away under it’s own power when the coast is clear. If I look, I can find examples of exactly what I am talking about reported in print newspapers."
The Youtube video you provided in defense of that claim failed to support it.
It's point were EV's have reduced range in the winter and you might run out of energy.
It is common knowledge that EV's range are significantly reduced in cold weather. I can assure you that the members of this forum are more that well aware of that. Secondly anyone can run out of energy in a traffic jam if they didn't have enough fuel going into it regardless of energy source.
The data based Youtube from the Norwegian guy concludes that in general given the same percent of total energy capacity you are no worse off stuck in a traffic jam in the winter in an EV than a fossil fueled vehicle.
I have traveled many a mile on Greyhound, Amtrak, and crowded airlines. Talk about sardines in a can. I have ridden CTA buses. As a reductionist, and an over simplifier, you arrived at a conclusion that was superficial. If you took full context, you would have already seen that I think mass transit COULD be ideal, if people were ideal. The Japanese example is a perfect one. There is a price, though. If you want to park your car somewhere in Tokyo, or other major city, you have to apply for a permit. If you don’t already have a permit, chances are minuscule that you will get one. Now, what exactly is the misinformation you are accusing me of? If you can’t substantiate it, retract it, and apologize for it.
Well, you miss the point that in most of the populated areas of Japan, you don't need a car that often. I lived there six years, and needed a car twice, both times for trips into the countryside where bus service was a little spotty (could have take the buses, but wanted to follow my schedule and the luggage would have been a bit of a pain to deal with). And I did have a parking space for a car in my apartment. Just never used it other than those two times. Getting parking space is not that difficult, but it can be expensive, and you may park in a lot a few blocks from your apartment. Cars in Japan are very expensive to have and maintain, and not needed all that often for the vast majority of the population. Remember, part of the real estate listing for an apartment or house is how far it is from the nearest train station - too far, and the value plummets. In Tokyo you are never more than 500 meters from a train station. Same is true of most of the other cities.
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Slideshow: A one-of-one U.S.-spec Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Roadster became even rarer after a factory-backed transformation at McLaren's headquarters.
I don't need that sheet!
