Begging for service
 

Fletcher Jones Las Vegas

I took my car in for a warranty issue. I tell the service advisor I'd like to get the oil changed while I'm there.(new car with 2000 miles) and tries to talk me out of it. I talk to him about lowering the car with star diagnostics. "We don't do that" "dealer doesn't recommend" was all he could say... about everything I asked him about. Very frustrating.
I thought the idea was to SELL. cars, parts, service. No one selling service.

as soon as I get my mbworld stickers I'm going to put one on their front door. :)

On the oil change, I think it was good that he tried to talk you out of a foolish decision. You think your SA should encourage you to have unnecessary service performed on your car?

I don't know what "lowering the car with star diagnostics" means. I always thought lowering the car was a mechanical thing. Either way, I can understand the dealer not recommending such alterations to your car.

If a customer insists on having his oil changed, by all means, let him buy it...but in regards to lowering, I can see their point. They would have to void any warranty claims that related to any part of the suspension, puting their relationship with the customer at risk, and increasing their liability.

Having read thread after thread it appears that most change their oil at much shorter intervals than the service calls for. Especially on a new motor. 500, 1000 miles and replace at break in does not seem to be uncommon

imo it wasn't a foolish decision to want to have the oil changed, and I live where it is a full day and a pain in the ass to go to Vegas for service. :y

It's a foolish decision because it flies in the face of research which proves that you do not have to change your oil that quickly. Your MB dealer knows this. Knowing this, I think the respectable thing for him to do, should someone request an oil change early because they received inaccurate information, is inform the customer it's not necessary, and advise against it. Now if the customer is indeed foolish and decides that they STILL want to part with the $100+ for an oil change, then by all means, the SA should schedule it. Might want to get your transmission fluid replaced as well.

Exactly :y
Everyone else who has posted on the thread needs to learn a little bit about their cars.
Lowering via Stardiagnostic is not a risk, just uneducated service departments at work.
As far as changing oil at 2k...great idea!
Do you have any idea what kind of metal content is in your oil after the first few hundred miles of engine breakin?

BTW
Fu$% the dealer, if you want your oil changed they should change it.
End of story. Who is paying for it, not them.
It's not uneducated to change your oil at this initial interval. Read up on this.

............and yet again, another dealer recommends to me, " If I where you, I'd have the trans flushed at about 50 k miles or so..." He tells me it's exactly the same trans thats been in the cars since '97, when they used to service them more frequently. Even the filter is the same paper/fiber filter. He did mention updates, but that they only involve reprogramming, and replacement of the valvebody and control unit assembly in approx '01. Now I'm no service tech, but when two mercedes dealers tell me that waiting forever to change the trans fluid "probably is'nt a good idea" I start to wonder if waiting 10-15k miles to change the oil is smart. :nix:

..Just for the record, I dont think it's smart. I change it every 5k. Especially after I noted sludge on the underside of the cap. Chrysler for example is loosing engines in 300m due to sludge. (2.5 engines) Late model cars, with a history of routine maint, engine failure before 100k.

I change my oil for the first time when breakin is done. While I have not pulled an oil sample on a new MB engine at 1000 miles (I already know it will be very high in metals), I can tell you the metal content at the 5000 mile sample was greater than the 10,000 and subsequent samplings. This was true for both of my MBs and every new car I've owned. Even though the advancements in engine building techniques and oil quality minimize the amount of initial metal wear, there is still a significant amount of metal wearing off friction surfaces in the early stages of an engine's life.

Sealed transmission MY A$$! Change the fluid at 30-50K if you plan on keeping the car past the warranty.

......here's a thought, Manufactures have fudged about horsepower, either up or down, torque, towing capacity, fuel milleage, and so on, is it possible they might strrreeecchhh the service intervals ? after all, who keeps a car long anyway, right? (they'll never know the trans failed at 130k)

...we asked for it though. Consumers said, "give us maintenence free, trouble free cars"
.."and cup holders!"

How have they "fudged" on these ratings? TUV in Germany has specific requirements about HP ratings, EPA in the US has very specific tests for mileage, etc.

While I disagree with your first statement, you are correct in stating that manufacturers want to stretch service intervals to lower (percieved or real) cost of ownership.

Yes, the masses did want cup holders. Lots of them and big ones too. After all those Micky D super size drinks are huge! :wall: :wwf: :crazy: :beat:

.
.I will admit, I have no proof..But I seem to recall a time when horse power was marked down on paper (U.S.) to please insurers, or advertising horsepower ratings at the crank, although truthful,not everyone knows you loose some at the wheels...The big bold fuel milleage numbers on window stickers highlight an optimum average, while down below in fine print is a more likely avergage (forget how it reads)..alot of prius customer state that their car gets nothing of what they expected..but there is nothing unethical about making your product shine, it's business..and we love it! But I just want the truth about about taking care of it.

.. :rolf:
...I think I counted 14 in an 8 passenger mini van once.

Yeah, back in the 1960's US makers would sometimes rate their engines lower. Funny thing is that when compared to engines made today, they had LESS horsepower back then! I think it was 1970 that the US standardized HP ratings to stop that practice.

EPA numbers are a joke if you actually think you can ever attain them in the real world. However, like standardized HP ratings, they are a good for comparison between different cars.

Let's set the record straight here. Lots of misinformation going around.

The poster was complaining because his service adviser recommended against an oil change at 2000 miles. All of the research done on these engines show that this is NOT necessary. If a customer comes in and asks for something that is PROVEN to be not necessary, then the service adviser should advise against it. I think the fact that he is complaining about this is crazy. Would he rather have his service adviser recommending things that are not necessary??

Now you can "feel good" all you want about changing your oil at 2000 miles. You can be proud of yourself for protecting your engine. You can tell yourself anything you want to justify the money you spend. However, it doesn't change the results of the research which shows that you are not helping (or hurting) your engine by doing this. At least, not to any significant degree.

Also, Mercedes cars are equipped with a Flexible Service System which includes a very sophisticated oil quality monitor. The system looks at driving speeds, cold starts, short-distance trips and other factors that can negatively affect oil life. It also monitors the quality of the oil – particles in suspension and other factors – and it can judge when the oil has deteriorated to the extent that it needs to be replaced.

As to the accusation that they are lying about service intervals..... Now why would they want to do this? The fact is, MB has a vested interest in making sure their cars are reliable. We're also talking about the wear in a New car which is almost always under warranty.

Including you. :rolleyes:

First, this isn't about the dealer refusing to do unnecessary work, it's about them advising against it. I don't know about you, but most customers want to be advised by their service adviser (hence the title), not just have them take their money.

And it most certainly IS uneducated to change your oil at the point stated. Again, research proves this is not necessary. Maybe you should read up on it and see for yourself.

Revstriker, I do not disagree with you regarding changing the oil when the car has a mere 2000 miles on it, and I do agree that a service advisor (and I am one, myself) tell the truth, and look out for the intrests of the customer...An engine certainly should wear in properly...I do not agree with the lack of trans service requirements, and based on what I see, I am concerned about the long oil change intervals.

Revstriker
I have read up on it and opinions vary greatly. There is data that shows high metal content in the oil of new engines after the break in period. Furthermore this only makes sense. All the little (micro) particles of metal that come from breakin have to go somewhere. The idea is to not have them become destructive to rings and any other part of your engine.
I will admit that I am cautious when it comes to maintenance and would rather be safe than sorry. I also would like the dealer to listen to what I want done. Like I said, it's my penny not theirs.
Don't qualify my knowledge of engines based on my educated opinion on this subject.

Hey, Rev,
There are many studies on the subject of automotive mainenance and engine oil specificaly. While I resepct your opinion greatly, the results of these vary widely leaving me to my own experience. It has taught me that there are higher levels of metal debris in an engine for several hundred or a few thousand miles of new. Why not get it out ASAP?

My statement WRT extending service intervals is not meant to call them liars. I am only stating that I don't see the direct correlation of extended service intervals lowering long term cost of operation.

I say to the service writer, and I want to get my oil changed while I'm here.
His answer (imo) should have been, "No Problem, is there anything else you would like us to do?" I did not ask for his oponion, advice or "recommendation" just service. :)

Exactly :y

E552006 and E55AMG99, I respect your knowledge, and your position on this issue. I apologize if my comments seemed harsh - maybe it's just dealing with one too many people "advising" members that the FSS is wrong, or that the info that MB is giving them is not valid.

I too have see quite a bit of research on engine oil (although I am no oil expert). I have seen a lot of reports of how modern engines no longer produce the level of metal particles during break in as they did only a few years earlier. Also, with the newer, modern, synthetic oils, they can handle more particles with less risk of damage.

Anyway, there are varying opinions on this matter, but the fact that MB has no issue with it, and considering that most engines would be covered under a factory warranty during this period, I am comfortable following their service schedule.

Then you should just tell him that you're not interested in his advice. But understand, that it is part of his job to advise customers on service and maintenance. What if someone came in, as you said, and requested and received an oil change, and then found out later that it was not necessary. They'd be complaining here about how the service adviser ripped them off.

Mercedes dealers normally set you up with a specific service adviser for a reason. They want their customers to feel like they are getting special attention, and that the person they are working with is doing so with the customer's best interest in mind. Otherwise, you could take your car to Jiffy Lube.

You are absolutely correct about the mis-information problem on these types of exchanges. Everyone is an Internet expert these days. I'm hardly an expert but I've built up and torn down enough engines to see the process for myself. You are also right about newer engine building techniques and oils but I'm just too damn conservative :y to let any liberal amount of contaminents stay in my oil!

How's that for making this a political thread?! :naughty:

LOL :rolf:

When you put it that way....I think I'll start changing my oil every month now! :p

Hate to resurrect an old thread.. but I had to speak out on this one..

you couldn't be more wrong in this statement than I've ever seen anyone be wrong in any.

A brand new engine, running on synthetic oil (much like in aviation) will create A LOT of fragments in the initial break-in. IF your intention is to keep your car for a long time.. YOU CANNOT change your oil/filter enough. In aviation engines (turbine) you are required by FAA directives to frequently change oil in the beginning life cycle of the core, and less so towards the end for the sole reason that metal fragments are more likely in this stage of the engines life cycle. There are also directives for metal chip detectors that may cause you to change at even a more frequent interval (normal new engine interval is 100hrs). These engines run Exxon Turbo 2350 synthetic oil, and $200 high quality oil filters, far superior to the oil & filers in your MB, but that doesn't change anything.

Furthermore, the dealer, and service advisor doesn't care if your under warranty car runs well or not, the mainly look forward to the frequent out of warranty visits (either by you, or the future owner if that car) as these days ONLY the dealer can work on those types of cars, so they have a captive audience.. My family looked at a dealer purchase a short while back, and the majority of the revenues of that dealer were newer car repairs, followed by under warranty regular maintenance, then warranty repairs, used car sales, parts and lastly new car sales. It's all about protecting their best interest, and not yours. So believe what you want, but I will spend the lousy $100 and do it.. I also use Delvac Mobil 1 on my diesel, as the all knowing dealer doesn't stock it for their diesel customers, but chooses to use gas engine mobil 1 0w-40.

I change(d) my oil at 1000, 3000 and 6500... then 13000, etc... Screw the FSS 13000 BS... MB couldn't care less if you car lasts, so long as it lasts 4yr/50K... and you can do that on one oil change if you are so inclined.

I've read many, many, engineering papers on this subject.. Fluids/Oil etc are the single biggest way to keep an motor running for a long time. How you drive is next..

Here read this

My .02.....
 

If you read the article properly you would understand that how you drive is more important than how often you change your oil. If you abuse your car more frequent oil changing may increase its' life, but that's a false sense of security. You can exceed the operating parameters of the oil , breaking it down, and losing its' effectiveness with one mountain pass blast that's only 50 miles long, or 60 days of driving to work and flooring it when the engine is cold, or 10 passes at the dragstrip, or 100 stop light bingos in two weeks, etc. etc. The recommendations are for average drivers under average conditions. Where you fall on that curve is more important to know for when you change your oil. I bet most readers of this forum are average drivers and don't constantly push their car to the limits. Modern cars have modern maintenance intervals and last longer than their predecessors. I would rather buy a used car owned by an average driver and maintained to schedule than one that was abused and maintained to any schedule.

Ok, lets be clear on something here, as far as the what you are saying I 100% AGREE that how you drive is critical.. though I would say equal to proper fluid change (but thats a minor disagreement).

High RPM & Cold engine = very bad
Abuse of the turbo with extreme use and no cool-down = bad

we can all agree about this stuff... but I can tell you from my experience in aviation engines, which have far less friction than reciprocating engines, you have to change oil frequently, especially on a new engine, less so over the long haul...

So for me $100 is a small price to pay for the peace of mind of like-new, sludge-less engine internals.

I appreciate what you're saying but........don't put the cart before the horse. Usage determines frequency (until you hit maximums in mileage or time). Even the article says that. We need to spend more time educating people on how to determine what type of driving they do so they'll understand what maintenance schedule to follow instead of making blanket statements that changing oil, more, twice the recommended rate or whatever interval is better....maybe it should be three times the rate! "YOU CANNOT change your oil/filter enough." What is enough? Also (now that I'm on my soapbox :) ) it has been proven that excessive maintenance not only costs more, wastes natural resources, but also causes more problems unrelated to wear (due to errors, negligence, or lack of knowledge). You trust the aviation engineers, why not the car engineers?

That is exactly what MB and others are attempting to do with FSS. It uses temp, RPM, speed, distance, etc. to help it decide how long the OCI should be. What CE750 and I are saying is that we don't have faith in the FSS because no matter how many parameters you measure, without a UOA, you can never be sure when the oil has had enough abuse. My experience with internal combustion engines and lubrication has shown that the OCI recommended by FSS is not optimal.

Interesting. FSS has been around for 9+ years now with this class of engine? I think MB has more than enough data to prove its' effectiveness. On what data do you base your judgement? I realize I am in the minority (among enthusiasts) in regards to oil change frequency, and everyone will do what makes them 'feel' better, but I have yet to hear any real facts other than "it can't hurt" and "it's cheap insurance". I also realize neither of us really cares what the other does, but if everyone held your belief we'd need/waste even more oil.

You are right. Some people have based their OCI on a feeling that it is better than the factory recommendations but that can go either way, longer or shorter intervals. Regardless, I have done some VOA and UOA on the oil in both my MBs and many other cars. The oil in my E55 is pretty well spent at 10,000 miles which is a little less than what FSS says. Not much less but I do change the filter at 5,000 and sometimes if I'm feeling ambitious, I'll drain the oil too. Not that much more effort. In other cars I have found that the filter is the limiting factor and 4-6,000 miles is about all you can expect to get out of one before it's gone.

It is definately a fine line between wasting to much oil and wearing out a motor.

and I think it's fair to say a "break-in" change at 1000, then subsequent changes at 6500 mile intervals isn't really excessive..

I guess you and I are just too "conservative" in many other ways.. Oh well... 700 miles to go until my 6500 mile change... can't wait! :D

Take a trip to Sedona this weekend and chage it when you get back!

great minds think alike... Already working on the grandma to watch the kids for a night at the spa up there... :p

LOL!

Are you up for L'Auberge or Enchantment? I'm getting hungry just thinking about the food at either place and definately at Rene at Tlaquepaque! Man, what's for DINNER!

I can't relate an aspirated engine to mine. Oil analysis and when readings go to the "bad" category is a whole 'nother thing/belief. Do you push your car? How many miles do your tires and standard brake pads last? How about your average mph?

Enchantment is where we stayed last time, I actually used the MB concierge to book it.. and got a better rate than my last time, but then that was in July. Do you think L'Auberge is better?

Again, you are absolutely on track. Every car will be somewhat different based on driver habits, use, climate, etc. There will be strong similarities among car models however based on engine and oil system design, etc.

To be exact, do your own UOA. It doesn't cost that much anymore.

Two completely different but most excellent experiences. There is nothing more serene than to wake up with those red cliffs looming right outside your window at Enchantment. However, the setting on Oak Creek is just as beautiful. Where ever you stay, be sure to eat at both as well as Rene's.

I'm jealous! :y

Your disagreement is not with me, but with Mercedes Benz, as it is their qualified recommendation on when oil changes should be performed. My statement was about what the Service Adviser should or should not do. If Mercedes Benz does not recommend changing your oil at 1000, 3000, etc., then the service adviser should not recommend this either.

As for the argument of more frequent changes being "better", it all depends on your perspective of what "better" is. I'm sure the argument could be made that changing your tires every 10,000 miles is better. If you measure it in risk (that is, to the engine), then there have also been many studies showing that the risks on a modern engine with modern synthetic oil going longer distances is not that great. The comparison to an airplane engine is apples/oranges as I would imagine the acceptable degree of risk is much greater.

I also found your link interesting as it contains information about oil changes from an oil company. After basically stating that it's in the car dealers best interest for your car to have problems (although, the recommendation is coming from DC, and it is NOT in their best interest for cars to break down), you would have to admit that it's in the oil company's best interest to recommend more frequent oil changes.

And finally, I just want to state again, the original poster was complaining because his SA would not recommend a service which is not recommended by MB. It's not that they would not let him do it, they would just not recommend it. If he has a problem with this, then he would probably be OK with them recommending a tire change or a new drivers seat at 10,000 (at his expense).

Rev good points, but the bottom line, is if I come in and ask for an oil change before the 13000, 1 yr point on a new car... clearly I am asking because I know something about it's positive effects.. not because I'm an idiot who want's is 2000 mile oil drained 11,000 early.. this original poster seems to me like an smart guy who wants to protect his investment.. some of us (I'd say most) lease these cars and don't really care what happens to them after we turn them in.... I for one wrote a check for $47,000 and financed the remaining $10,000.. if I come down on hard times, this car needs to last me for the long haul.. and at 13,000 on the first oil change, that isn't going to further that cause.

The DCX share holder isn't rewarded when we buy 1 car ever 20 years from them, they do better if we buy one every 5.. so even though MB doesn't want cars failing at 50001 miles, I agree (I was being a bit sarcastic with my initial remark), they also equally don't want their cars lasting 300,000 with the same owner... that could hurt their bottom line :D

I do agree with you here, except that I'm sure the Service Advisor's for Mercedes do deal with their fair share of people who know nothing about the mechanical workings of their cars. Top that off by the message (originated by the oil companies) that we should change our oil every 3,000. I still think that Mercedes Service Advisor's so try to be a step up from the average order taker and provide advice to customers.

This is true if people kept their cars until the fell apart. However, this is not the case. People buy a car now for 2-5 years. The resale value of that car is affected by the perceived quality of the vehicle, and the resale value has a direct effect on the new car price, as well as new car sales volume. So overall, I would say that it is in DCX's best interest for their vehicles to last longer. :)

I think we need to be clear here that NMRA is not an oil company, that their article has many bits of information, one of which is sited from an oil company, and they freely admit it, thus showing no conflict of interest.

I am sure you can find dozens of environmental websites that say that one should keep the same oil for 20,000 miles.. there are agendas on both sides. But the article isn't focused on just the oil company.

You are correct. My statement quoted about the oil companies' recommendations was not referring to your article. Sorry if I was not clear on that.

I did state earlier that the article used an oil company to confirm it's recommendation to change your oil more frequently, and I did call in to question their (the oil company) motivation behind that as a comparative to the motivation of dealers not recommending what's best for your car.

I've guess we've now beaten this dead horse into the ground. :p

Yeah.. I re-read it, you did say that, and your are right, we'll just 'agree to disagree" :)