CE750

I was going to post this in the C-Class forum but to be fair to the C, it's not just the car, but the entire direction of the company that is a source of great disappointment for me.

My entire life as a young man I dreamed of owning a Mercedes. At that time (late 70's early 80's) the common models on the road were the 240D, 300D and 300SD, with the occasional 380 or 500SE/SEL.. At that time, the typical American offering was abysmal! Caddilac Seville or El Dorado were the top of the line, boasting hard, cheap chromed plastic interiors with large amounts of fake wood burl, cheap vinyl and velour seating on top a 1950's tech chassis with solid axles and drum brakes!


So, needless to say, the Mercedes (and other German offerings like BMW) stood out as top quality and high performance vehicles with their leather, or high quality MB-Tex interiors, high grade rubber and plastic dash/switches and VDO instruments atop a advanced chassis with independent suspension and disc brakes! Then there was the "door slam" test that I used to do.. the 240D (especially the rear door) sounded like a solid piece of steel and made a single "thud" when it shut with no post-sound effects.. The Caddilac.. firstly required one to lift up on the door to get it to align correctly, and then when the door was shut it sort of was absorbed into the rest of the car with a series of sounds sounding like... "kerklunk"..

Clearly the MB was just that much better! Back then a bottom end 240D cost just south of $30K where as the flag ship Fleetwood Cadillac was in the neighborhood of $17K.. There was not only more value in the Benz, but it cost more, which made sense. If you rolled out the 300SD, loaded you were now treading into the $40K range..

Fastforward to 2005 when I went in to by my first new MB, a 320 CDI.. I hadn't been in the W211 cars before, but had been in a few W210s' and recall being impressed with the fit and finish, materials and over all "solid" feel of the cars. I then spent some time closely inspecting the 320's and other W211's in the show room.. I recall a bit of disappointment in the materials and styling but not too much.. I didn't care for the instrument cluster (it didn't look MB enough to me).. nor did I like the steering wheel.. again, didn't look MB! I was also a bit disappointed in the carpet, and other "mass produced" feeling interior materials but still could see that it was a step above the average American offering and I suppose worth the $52K base price. I'm happy with my CDI now, having accepted that it will never stand out as a superior product the way it's older brother the 240D did to it's peers.. But nevertheless, it was a superior product.

Now the point of my rant, and this thread.. And this isn't meant to be a dig against anyone with a new 2009 C class, or ML... but I recently was in the market to replace my XC90 with an SUV, and my #1 choice to look at was the ML 320CDI or maybe even the 550 variant. We went in to look at the new model and I was absolutely floored by the cheap plastic door panels, and storage bins, cup holders, and other items that almost smacked of those 1970's Cadillacs interiors!! So we never even got as far as the test drive, we were on the way to look at BMW's new offering for 2007.. $85K later, we were in a fully spec'd X5 and have been absolutely happy with it, even if it's not quite as nice as that 240D was in it's time..

Yesterday was the last straw... I went in for a service and got a loaner car. They gave me a brand new C300.. I walked up to it, and it looked nice enough, if a bit angular and wedge like, but nice.. I opened the door to sit in and was greeted by what I could swear was a 2004 Cadillac CTS my neighbor drives!!! down to the door switches for the windows, the cheap plastics, and the dash board/instrument cluster.. I could swear I was in a GM product, or at best a Nissan Maxima.. THIS WAS NOT A MERCEDES INTERIOR in my book.... the hood ornament was the only reminder to me that I was in a Mercedes. Now to be fair, it drove nicely and sure footed, what I expect from a Mercedes but interior appointment wise it was an unmitigated disaster! I am GROSSLY disappointed with MB and am NOT looking forward to the new E-class if this is a sign of what's coming.. I may end up with another BMW (if they don't blow it any more themselves!!)..

Now I'm not expecting workmanship like on the 1931 SSKL, or even a 1963 280SE, I'm not even expecting that 1981 240D.. but let's not degrade anymore than the 2005 CDI for God's sake!! What's left of this car line that is anything special????

Anyone else see this?

CE750

Apparently I"m not alone..

From

http://www.epinions.com/content_400960491140

CrazyDonkey

i will say that when i took my 06 C230 sport in for maitenance and got a C300 i was pretty happy...until i opened the door. everything felt cheap inside, the ride sucked, the handiling sucked and the over all experience sucked. on top of this it was pretty dirty inside and out, to me it felt like a step down from my C230.

maybe it's just me though.

GGM

I agree with you. My ex-wife's cousin had a 240D back in the '70's that seemed to me to be the epitome of what a luxury car should be. My dream was to own one one day. It took me a while, but I was finally able to afford a Mercedes. My '03 C240 and now the '08 E350 don't seem to measure up. I have been disappointed. I will not buy another Mercedes. I've realized my dream to own a Mercedes but it wasn't what I expected. So sad.

DslBnz

The W202 C-Class, imho, was the best. MB sort-of stepped it up a notch with that one (although the exterior seems a little bland when stock). I'm still torn between that one and the W201 (I love the unobstructed visibility of that car).

As far as the latest C....I haven't driven one, but I felt the same about the interior (yech). They are also larger than they need to be, for a C.

CE750

Interesting replies... wish this thread could get more exposure.. I was going to post it into the C or E forum.. I'm sure there are many who agree and even some (maybe the young ones) who don't...

Sal Collaziano

Mercedes has admit to cutting some corners and they're working on resolving these issues....

Dema

Good post. So what to buy? I use to own E class, so I need an alternative to becoming crappy Mercedes. I have looked in S80, 540, RL, M45, GS, but nothing turned me on. Maybe look FX? Any opinions?

pmb600

I guess I would be considered one of the young ones here (22) and I do agree with you that the interior is disappointing.

While I love the styling of the new C-Class, overall the interior looks less attractive than its predecessor. I have a W203 C-Class and I know that it is not the finest automotive interior, but I really feel it's appearance is more elegant than the W204. I think that Mercedes wanted to try to make the new C-Class interior more sporty and youthful to try to steal some of BMW 3-series market, but they went a little overboard.

I did have the opportunity to spend some extended time in the new C-Class. My uncle has a C300 which I was a passenger in and got to drive while we were visiting and today I saw my friends new C350 for the first time. The C350 did feel more luxurious inside than my Uncle's C300 because of the Black Bird's Eye Maple wood trim (although there isn't much of it) and this particular car had the pano roof, multimedia package and P2 which gave the car an overall more upscale feel than less equipped models.

I do think that while the interior might not be as attractive as the W203, it does feel like it is more solidly built and put together. This is speculation, but I just don't see this new interior having rattling problems as much as the W203 was/is known for.

Saprissa

I agree 100% with the original post.
Owning a 1959 220S with wood (real wood) dash and window trim, as well as leather (real leather), and all the comfort that a car of that age provided is testament to what Mercedes-Benz reputation and quality was built on.
I also own 3 current models (2003 C320 SC / 2004.5 C320 SS / 2005 ML350 SE), and I would say that their interiors leave much to be desired from what you would expect from a Mercedes-Benz. Sure the innovations, gadgets, and electronic functionality is all there, but if it weren't for that shiny star, you would think you're in a Toyota or Nissan.

Today, true Mercedes-Benz interior quality can only be obtained through special DESIGNO interiors only offered to the high end S-Classes and AMG line. But now you're talking about cars that with the DESIGNO options will run over $150,000. A Maybach interior may be what people expect, but the cost prohibitive factor will never allow Mercedes-Benz to regain that interior riding in style feeling in their mass-produced main lines.

Carlos

Saprissa

451/443=EW

Ya I agree that the dash is cheap looking, but than so is BMW, Benz still has a nicer interior then BMW. Audi makes a nice interior but the car is another story.

At the end of the day Benza made the new C with value in mind and also to make it affordalbe to a larger market. The car is so equiped with safety features, computers, sensors, and so on.. For a car that cost here in Canada $40,000 nicley equiped and 7 Speed auto. Can you really say its not a Benz or that is cheap? In my opinion, Benz did everything but cheap out on this car, it is so value packed and loaded with new advancments just like a real Benz. Ya they made a BIG mistake partering with Chrysler but this car is no Chrysler. Benz spent the money devloping this car and making it a truly advanced car, and yes maybe saved some on the interior. but did you know that it has a drag cooeffientcy of ONLY .29? That is a sleek sports car territory. That is a well devloped car.

pmb600

I don't think the argument is that the new C-Class is poorly made or bad quality--on the contrary it has shown so far in almost a year on the market to be a very reliable, much higher quality C-Class than the previous model.

I think the real disappointment that most have is with the interior apperance which really has nothing to do with quality, but rather asethetics.

AsianML

I'd be one of the young ones as well at 16. While the W163 is far from Mercedes' best at interiors, compared to the W164 it doesn't feel as nice to the touch. It feels better put together (as does the rest of the lineup compared to previous years) as pmb600 noted about the C-Classes.

The touch and feel isn't the same. It looks rather industrial with the plastic "grains" I guess you could call it.

One thing that I don't like too much on the newer lineup is the doors. What happened to the nice rippled leather inserts that you'd see on just about every model? The S550 doesn't even have leather on the doors anymore, let alone rippled. On the W164 you'd have to get the ML63 in order to get leather on the doors.

CE750

Good replies all... I guess what is happening at MB is much like what is happening all over the world.. I call it the Walmartizaion effect.. sort of like the replacement of all the small "mom and pop" shops with superstores like Costco, Best Buy, and Fry's Electronics.. etc.. The same is happening in the auto industry, heck, even the new Bentley is a glorified VW.. It's a shame to compare it to the 2001 Azure, much less a 1931 Sports man, or God forbid a Duesenberg SJ.. They are just not making anything like this anymore.. I'd argue even the Bugatti Vyron (sp?) isn't comprable in terms of workmanship (technology and performance, yes)..

I suppose the ideal answer for me is to find a mint condition, well kept 240 or 300D from the early 80's to buy and drool over, sitting in the back seat and slamming the doors over and over..

CE750

It must smell so nice in that car! And I can imagine the quality of the carpet must be an order of magnitude above the crap in the cars today.

And that's another thing, I recall a Mercedes had that special smell.. sort of like a new vinyl smell or something.. not now. Now they smell like a Herz Rental-a-car Ford Taurus after a few weeks...

Saprissa

Why can I visualize that so well ????

pmb600

Yeah, where did the rippled leather on the doors go?? I always thought that was a nice touch, even though my car doesn't have it because it was the standard Leather Seating Inserts interior.

pmb600

One other thing to keep in mind here is the increased competition in the auto industry forcing Mercedes to keep their prices down. 20-30 years ago if you wanted a beautiful luxury car you would have bought a Mercedes-Benz period, no contest. Maybe if you were really wealthy you would get a Bentley and Rolls-Royce, but those British cars of that era were no match for a Mercedes in terms of quality and engineering, they were merely status symbols. Today there are so many more choices for luxury buyers creating more competition.

Even the C-Class which we are all complaining about is pretty much exactly the same price as the first W202 in 1994. I doubt many other products we buy cost what they did 18 years ago. Even accounting for improvements in manufacturing or technology that would make the cost of production lower, there are still 18 years of inflation there that aren't accounted for. Also the 500SEL retailed for over $90,000 in the early 90s and the S550 starts at just under $90,000 today.

heron25

I think the merger with Chrysler hurt Mercedes more than they'd care to admit. They had to lower their standards so that they could share more suppliers and parts with Chrysler. Also, this I know, Mercedes was forced to increase their tolerances on their parts so that they could share parts with other platforms. If you aren't familiar with tolerances, it's the acceptable range of dimensions that a product can fall between and still be considered an acceptable part. The smaller the tolerances, the tighter the fit and finish. Since Chrysler was kicked to the curb, tolerances have tightened once again and starting in late 08 and into 09, you will see an improvement in fit and finish again. It may not change the styling, but you will see an improvement in body gaps, dash gaps and less creaking and rattling overall.

If you guys ever get a chance, look up manufacturer tolerance requirements for different car manufacturers. Takes a little searching but fascinating the big discrepancies.

Jack_2001C240

I agree that the Mercedes of the late 70's to early 80's had much nicer fit and finish, paint and interior than the my 2001 C240. There is some paint that has separated from the metal at the lower front passenger door of my car. Definitely poor build quality, although this is the best car I have ever driven.

One point not mentioned was the Mercedes back in the days were substatially more expensive than a brand new modern C-class or even an E-Class.
My family could not even dream of buying any early 80's Mercedes new. The 2001 C240 is probably the only new Mercedes I will ever own. 2001 was the only year that I, my mother, and my sister combined were able to pool enough money together to buy a brand new Mercedes. Now I have other priorities and better ways to spend my money.

CE750

All good posts gentleman, and well made points. I like this dialogue. Let's keep it going.

Ryanr317

I agree that the interiors nowadays leave you with a little bit of disappointment, especially compared to other cars. At the auto show last year, i sat in the '08 TL, and it's interior was far more impressive than the one in my C or in the ML. Cadillac's interiors are far better than they were in the past. Take the new CTS compared to the W204 for example.

lkchris

I think the problem here is that the discussion is about the C-class.

Even back in the 1980s the W201 was no match for the bigger models and it apparently remains this way today. Cs have always been built to a price.

When one of our cars is in for service, I'll ride home and be picked up in the R-class rather than drive one of the C-class loaners.

To me, the more interesting comparison is between the European-built cars and the Alabama-built cars. The latter aren't too special.

And, to me the USA-spec Cs have way too much engine and perhaps some better interior materials could come with a cheaper-to-make 4-cyl engine, which is more in tune with this class car. And, of course, there always has to be something saved for the facelift.

alpinweiss

While I agree with many of the preceeding comments, let us remember what our US dollar is really worth in world markets. The German car manufacturers are stretched very thin right now. They are building a car for Euros and selling it for Dollars. If MB really charged what they wanted, we would probably pay $60,000+ for a C-Class.

alpinweiss

There are persistant rumors about just exactly that. MB may bring back the C-Class with 4-cylinder gas and Diesel engines for fuel economy reasons. Delete some unnecessary standard features (such as the sunroof), and they can save some weight and money. $4 per gallon gas may change our way of life.