lig

Thanks.

Many folks find that term very offensive.

J Lucas

No problem, maybe ignorance isnt as bliss as I thought

GTIDAN

No need to defend your opinion as to Lexus stealing ideas from others, especially MB.

For further evidence of this pick up the latest copy of Automobile magazine and check out the writer's comments on the new Lexus models. In a quickie here the article starts with the statement that Lexus (and other Japanese designors) have little or no confidence in their ideas and have no problem copying the ideas of the likes of MB and others.

Read it for yourselfs..........

Lexus does win the battle on the reliability issue. MB should be embarrassed by the quality control problems they have and some of their equipment choices. For example, almost every car from a Honda on up comes with some form of CD player. The C-Coupe still comes with only a tape player. I work for one of the largest consumer electronic stores in the country and you can't find a cassette in the store. MB needs to pull their heads out of the sand...

That said : I love my coupe..........

moxieman2

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J P
[B]Lexus vehicles have excellent reliability, this is more than I can say for M-B vehicles.

Yes, at various times Lexus has somewhat tried to imitate M-B's design. However, there is generally a uniqueness to Lexus vehicles in that they all look different. I prefer this over the M-B approach of almost everyl line looking remarkably similar.

Value is a critical issue for many. This, along w/ reliability, is where Lexus "steals" potential M-B owners. Lexus vehicles generally offer a similar car in safety, interior materials, luxury, etc yet for thousands or sometimes several thousands less.

Essentially, Lexus vehicles are high-end Toyotas. They are better than Toyota badged vehicles, because they are higher-end cars. The GS, LS, & SC are much better than any Toyota-badged car.
__________________________________________________ _

J.P., since you seem to be some form of an expert on Lexus would you care to elaborate on some of your statements:

1.) Imitating at VARIOUS TIMES? The only time Lexus doesn't copy Mercedes is when they are copying their Toyota Twin! (Please don't make me reply with all the cars that Mercedes has made that Lexus has copied, even a moron should see the resemblence!)

2.) VALUE, LOL! That's perhaps the most ludacris quote in your whole post! Value and Lexus shouldn't even be in the same sentence! Anything that has a Twin that costs $20,000 less than it does is certainly not a VALUE. That's what you call a RIP OFF!

3.) "Similar Interior Materials" Boy, this keeps getting better and better! Wood Trim: Mercedes-Benz=REAL, Lexus=PLASTIC! Thats the only example I need to give because if they are cutting corners on something so obvious, I could only imagine what they have done elsewhere. (No, I probably couldn't)

4.) The only reason a Lexus is "several thousands less" is because they HAVE to be! Lexus couldn't sell a car for a $100,000. If they ever do, I pity the future of the human race!

5.) They only reason why Lexus "steals" a potential Mercedes-Benz owner is the lack of the inteligence and class of that particular individual. Don't give Lexus credit for something they aren't doing, they get plenty of that anyway!

6.) Please take time to evaluate your last paragraph.....IT MAKES NO SENSE. (Neither does the rest of your post but this is painfully obvious!) "high-end Toyota", "they are better than Toyota "badged" vehicles" Please tell me how exactly they are better than a Toyota "badged" vehicle. Don't even mention safety, because I will grind into the dirt with my reply because Mercedes-Benz IS SAFETY!!!

7.) Toyota "badged" (by the way, right there you are clearly saying they are the same, but just "badged" differently.) I agree with that!

Guest0001

Dont expect too much from J P. The guy drives an IS300 so you can see his bias. He thinks he got a bargain when its actually a supped up civic look alike. . Enjoy your toyota. Ill enjoy my fine piece of german Engineering.

W210

Thanks for the explanation Noble 320, this explains it all.

Poor guy still having internal conflicts within himself which is why he's having this love hate relationship with MB coming here trying to justify his Lexus purchase.

I think deep down he knows which car is better, if he can just get out of the closet.

MercedesBenzAMG

hahahaha

MapleOne

I have only one question...

How can we have a 9 page discussion about one of the most boring car lines on the planet?

I can't remember the last time that any of their cars excited me.

In the area where I live the Lexus sales are almost non-existent, but the Infinity sales are going very well.

I still say that the people who like European cars will always stick to Benz, BMW or Audi. The Japanese brands need to develop their own distinct personality.

You can blindfold me and I will always know that I'm sitting in a German car, it just feels different.

S55inPA

i think people who own German automobiles get frustrated
when Lexus cars are discussed and compared as being equal to their German counterparts.

not that Lexus auto's aren't a qualilty car because we all know that they are. if reliability was the only aspect taken into account when purchasing a new car than Lexus would be king....Consumer Reports would be queen..... and all other car companies would be put out of business. i wonder how reliable Lexus cars would be if they actually pioneered a new technology. i might be wrong here but the only thing i can think of that Lexus has contributed a new technology where it has been applied to it's car is ....a rain removing film to it's glass.

with reliability being only a part of a new car purchase this is where Lexus exposes it's weaknesses in comparison to it's German competition. these other weaknesses in the Lexus brand are the lack of a unique exterior style and high performance engines and suspensions.

keep in mind that the Lexus line of vehicles is actually a very small line of cars. the only true vehicles that are Lexus only products are the IS,GS,SC,and LS. every other vehicle is sibling of a Toyota product. making for good business. this leaves the brand vulnerable to being less exclusive to a prospective purchaser than it's German counterparts.

MapleOne

I tend to disagree with your statement.

I drove a Lexus the other day and it felt like a Toyota or Accord, it did not have the rock solid German car feeling. It was smooth and quiet but still felt tinny to me.

The interior is a mish mash of 3-4 types of cars and the exterior styling is boring to say the least.

I think I would keel over if I saw an original idea.

Today I drove a newer Toyota Corolla and for a minute I thought I was sitting in a VW. The center console layout looked just like a Jetta. The buttons looked very similar and they even had the high mount radio.

Nice cars but they don't do a thing for me.

waldis

hey, i am on your side!
some of those lexus owners are very uneducated IMO and are not worth getting upset over.
BTW, Lexus cars are really poorly made. Our family owned anywhere from the IS to the SC series, and are/were very disappointed with the quality. Not to mention half of their dealers act like je*rks.

J P

If you read my post, it was rationale, logical, & reasonable. Nowhere did I come off as condescending, arrogant, or brash about Lexus vs. M-B.

I used to drive a BMW, but at this moment in time the IS300 is the best car for MY needs.

My needs had certain price limitations, as well as a car that has tuning potential. There are people w/ over 700 rwhp on a IS300 (no, I do not intend nor have the money to do so, but I'm planning F/I at a later time). Among M-B sedans, the only one in my range would've been a C230 K or C240. IMO, the IS300 makes more sense for MY needs at this price point than the C230 K.

I have no problem w/ it being a Toyota, I stated that Lexus vehicles are essentially high-end Toyotas. M-B also makes some low-end cars like the A-Class, & in Germany, they're not considered a exclusively high-end brand the way they are in the US. Germany is populated w/ M-B taxis. My point is, the brand is not a supreme indicator of a cars quality.

J P

Uh, no. I have respect for enthusiasts from all brands. I previously drove a BMW, & have one of the top 50 highest post counts out of over 18 000 members on E46Fanatics.com (BMW forum). I also frequent ClubRSX.

Nowhere in that initial post did I try to justify the IS300 over a M-B. I have always been a die-hard BMW fan, & would've bought a 330i over the IS300 if not for finances (20 yr old university student BTW).

However, I do find it childish that people here would try to make fun of the car or brand I drive, rather than offer a rationale critique of my initial post.

J Lucas

Your post has already been disected....

J P

1. I stated, Lexus vehicles are essentially high-end Toyotas. The IS for example, is the Altezza in Japan except the US & Canada get a bigger, more powerful engine & more luxury features. I do not believe Lexus is a separate entity from Toyota, I don't consider it copying as it is from the same company, I accept that it is a rebadged product except w/ more features than its Japanese counterpart.

2. There is no instance of a Lexus-badged car that is also sold as a Toyota w/ a $20 000 difference. Lexus versions of the same car do distinguish from Toyota counterparts via more safety equipment, luxury features, & better interior materials (trim).

3. Reading professional reviews, it seems many feel since the merger that M-B's interior fit & finish is down markedly. Consumer Reports, along w/ virtually all professional reviews, generally speak glowingly of Lexus interiors. The exception is the IS300, which doesn't have a great interior.

4. Yes, I do feel Lexus offers better value, not that it is necessarily a better car. How do you explain why they sold more than M-B in the US the last few yrs? If it's not because of value than what? Here, you acknowledge their cars are sold for much less yet insist that they're terrible values.

5. BTW, it's supposed to be spelled "intelligence" (no, I'm not attacking your intellect, just pointing it out). BTW, Bill Gates says his favorite car is the LS430.

6. The cars that are badge as Lexus in the US, are generally are of a higher class than the cars sold as Toyota in the US. For example, the E & S Class are a higher lines in M-B's lineup than the C Class. The cars sold as Lexus are better & higher-end than the ones sold as Toyota in the US (ie GS & LS vs. Corolla). Lexus badged cars are better than Toyota cars sold in the US because they offer luxury features, more safety equipment, & better interiors. There are no Toyotas in the US that are as good as the GS & LS for example.

Nowhere did I say Lexus cars are more safe than M-B, I stated they have more safety equipment than Toyota-badged cars in the US. If you look at crash test scores, both M-B & Lexus are at the top.

J P

I'm talking about the others who felt compelled to mock me for the car/brand I have. If people are going to say my points regarding the discussion have no merit on the basis I drive a Lexus, then that means all who drive M-B have no valid points regarding analysis of the Lexus brand.

W210

Most members here only feel that your opinion is biased, that's all, and I tend to agree with them.

You may find more support among Lexus/Toyota drivers.

J P

But if my opinion is biased by the car I drive, then does that not make the opinions of M-B drivers biased by the car they drive?

Why is all the criticism directed at Lexus valid, whereas my critique of the 2 brands biased?

How is my opinion biased when I stated Lexus vehicles are higher-end Toyotas w/ more luxury features, safety equipment, etc than their Toyota counterparts. Lexus badged cars do have more luxury features, safety equipment, etc than do Toyotas. This is not bias but fact. I also agreed that Lexus cars ARE Toyotas.

It is also fact there is no instance of a Toyota cousin selling for $20 K less than its Lexus cousin.

Why is it my bias that professional reviews give Lexus high marks for interior fit & finish? Nowhere do I state Lexus interiors are better than M-B, just that professional reviews speak very highly of them.

What is biased about crash testing by the NHTSA? I pointed out that the LS is in fact, a top-rated car as tested by the NHTSA (a branch of the US gov't). I also pointed out that both M-B & Lexus are top marques in crash tests, this is true. I did not subjectively declare Lexus to have very good crash test scores, the NHTSA did. Further, in my price range, only the IS & C-Class fit it. The IS received identical ratings except in roll-over resistance, where it actually got a better rating than the C-Class. I'm not giving my subjective opinion, it is what the NHTSA has.

There is also no stretching of the truth when I said that M-B does have some low-end cars in Germany, like the A-Class & that Germany has many M-B taxis.

Nowhere have I stated Lexus is better than M-B as a whole, only that many criticisms here regarding Lexus are subjective & when looked at objectively, have little merit (ie safety, as shown through NHTSA tests reveal Lexus to be a top marque along w/ M-B).

W210

Most MB drivers on this board can afford to buy a Lexus but they choose not to, for their own good reasons.

I really wanted a Lexus to do as well as a MB, so that I could save a few dollars and enjoy the excellent stereo. Unfortunately, I find the overall Lexus package rather poor below my expectation.

Yes, I value safety - active and passive safety (and I look beyond just one government crash test). I don't want the rough rides or poor ergonomics of a BMW but do not want the absolute lack of feel in a Lexus/Toyota. When I brake hard, I need to have good control without the serious brake dives (so typical with most Lexus models I have driven). I need good road feedback when I drive and corner without the annoying leans and hard to predict suspension behavior.

I care about a vehicle’s total quality, which includes the dynamic quality and this is where Lexus (and other Japanese luxury brands) painfully fall short when compared to MB.

You are biased based on not the car you drive, but the points you make. The car you drive explains to a great degree why you are biased. In your case, perhaps a MB was out of your budget, which is why you pay far more attention to the areas where Lexus do relatively well to justify your purchase. You are the first candidate who would go as far as trying to argue the benefits of Lexus’ lack of brand identity!

For most of us, we have done our homework and picked our MB over other brands, we feel great about our decision and don’t feel a need to prove anything to anyone.

Guest0001

W210,

Exellent post bro.

S55inPA

hey guys,

J P...Lexus sales are supported by the RX and ES models.
without them the overall sales numbers of Lexus would look
pretty dismal. even with the price advantage the LS has compared with the S, the S still outsells the the LS. Lexus has
done a good job of selling cars in the $35000 range...the near luxury territory.

as for the driving experience....BMW is best known for having a very engaging feel behind the wheel. having said that MB is not far behind.

as for the rest of your posts...i think they are pretty accurate and not insulting. have you been able to see the difference between MB world and Club Lexus? a difference of opinion is not unwelcome. the posters here have strong opinions but i would bet that not one of them has complained to a moderator to have you banned.

Guest0001

I remember I read somewhere on Edmunds that the RX is Lexus best selling car?

The ES too? Man that thing is beyond a joke!

Technics

Both MB and Toyota/Lexus make some great cars. Whatever floats your boat man, why split hairs? The only thing I don't like about MB is the lack of the 5 or 6spd manual option on some of their more performance orientated models. They're all fast enough without them but it would definitely add to the fun factor.

J P

I already stated a reason why people do buy Lexus over M-B is cost.

I find the 2 brands to be relatively similar in many respects (ie resale value, safety, interior fit & finish, etc) but I do feel Lexus offers more value for the money. I did not however, ever state that Lexus is better.

The NHTSA has ratings for front & side-crash tests, & the IIHS has ratings for offset crash tests. It is not just 1 test, & taken together, the various ratings reflect expected injury levels to all that are in the vehicle whether they be passenger or driver, front or rear.

A part that I disagree is when you suggest that M-B has a feel in drving dynamics that Lexus doesn't. While I agree many Lexus lack that driving dynamic feel, many M-B also do as well. BMW does have that feel, but any professional review will tell you that both M-B & Lexus vehicles are devoid of that special connection between driver & car, in general. They are mainly meant to be luxurious, not sporty (ie handling). Tests, including Consumer Reports, show that Lexus vehicles generally have shorter stopping distances.

The points I made are mainly facts, not opinions as I wrote in my previous post above this one. But if my choice of areas to focus on is biased, then does that not make the choice of areas you focus on biased? (because you try to focus on areas you think M-B is better at).

I have already explained, the only M-B in the same price range were the C240 & C230 K sedans. The IS300 has more std equipment, better reliability, equal to & better crash test scores, & better performance (acceleration, handling, & braking). The C230 K sedan wins in comfort & interior. For my needs, that is not enough to overcome its reliability & lesser performance as definedy above. I am not suggesting it is better, but it is better for my needs & w/ the comparison between the 2, my choice is reasonably well thought out.

I am saying Lexus is Toyota because it is the truth, & I actually don't think that a badge dictates how good a car is. If the IS300 was a Toyota badged car, w/ every single thing about it being the same as presently (luxury features, safety equipment, engine, etc) then I'd still get it over the C240 & C230 K sedan.

I'm sure most who bought any brand researched before they bought. If people here don't feel a need to prove anything to anyone, then why all the criticisms at Lexus? I only responded to this thread because of such, & through all these posts, I have not bashed M-B as sucking. Instead of saying "M-B's reliability sucks", I said "Lexus has better reliability".

GTIDAN

JP says;
The IS300 has more std equipment, better reliability, equal to & better crash test scores, & better performance (acceleration, handling, & braking.
__________________________________________________ _
I suggest you do a little more reseach here. I did at Edmunds and if you do a side by side comparisons of features and equipement you will find that the C230 has somethng like 15 more items that are standard over the Lexus IS300. Many are not even offered as an upgrade. As for performance last time I looked they were about the same even given that the Lexus has supposely more HP. Most everyone on this site knows that MB power is usually understated while Japanese numbers always seem to fall short. Maybe it's the size of the horses.....Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Like most here I agree that Lexus has better overal reliability. If that is all I wanted I might have bought a new Camry rather than my MB.

Lexus is a nice car but it's not a 'benz'. Period.

:p