lkchris

The ML420CDI was tested in last month's Mercedes Enthusiast.

They were very disappointed with the fuel economy.

jpeardm

I believe the average perception out there is why buy a diesel unless you like it for towing and even then what's the point unless fuel economy hits some level that just can't be overlooked as boxboss suggests.

StevethePilot

They would be! Is there a link to the article online? Or can you give us some highlights? (Do they do a "Highs" and "Lows" like some magazines?)

In the UK, where petrol's somewhere around $8-$10/US Gal, their prime focus will always be maximizing fuel economy. Often this comes at the expense of common sense; case in point, the "Smart," which seats two, and doesn't get better mileage than the "Mini," but the perception is that it's smaller and therefore must be better.

GL Fahrer

"Expensive" is not a long-term strategy in a segment DOMINATED by Domestics. The 420 is very expensive, and luxury buyers do not do diesel (in the U.S.). Look around, there are no diesel variants with Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, Lincoln etc....M-B cannot sell a technology all by itself to an American public still willing to buy 17mpg vehicles in record numbers even with >$3.00 fuel.


Lastly, the more options a company offers, the more difficult it is to stock a representative fleet at the dealer level. Americans want their cars "now" and typically do not want to wait for a custom build. "Potential" buyers in the U.S. do not contribute high volumes. It is more practical to go after the middle of the bell-curve than to target the extremes. A 450 customer is by no means in the middle.

Just my $.02

harkgar

That depends on your definition of luxury buyers. If what you said is true then Ford would have packed up long ago. The company's most profitable line is its truck line mostly with alloys, leather and sound options. A fully decked out 4 door 2007 Ford F-250 long bed 6.4 liter Powerstroke costs as much as a MB GL320 CDi and there is not a lot of discount on these vehicles. There is a real diesel truck following in NA.

The typical Lexus buyer will never buy a Powerstroke and the reverse is also true.

StevethePilot

WAY too true! Would that I had gotten the diesel Excursion when I had the chance, instead of the V10 gas one I'm scared to try and sell now. It took a couple trips to the UK and some long-time investigation for me to realize what I was missing out on, before I got my GL320. The US, as a whole, has fallen behind when it comes to diesel passenger vehicle knowledge - we still think of the old Buick diesel or the very old MB diesels still running around and smoking all over the place.

GL Fahrer

This is true, and M-B cannot (by itself) change the cultural bias towards diesel. M-B sells luxury trucks and no other luxury maker markets a diesel SUV. This is why they are only offering the 320 which was developed for Europe and is an alternative to the 450. But a $70,000 diesel? There is no market for that. Look what happened to the R-Class when they tried to create a market that doesn't exist...the "Sports Tourer" segment.

It's unfortunate that the U.S. has yet to embrace diesels. Maybe it will take $4.00 gas to do this.

boxboss

Diesels are coming. Quotes from this Autoweek article: Diesel Dash

"Mercedes-Benz confirmed that it will introduce five diesel models beginning this fall. Honda, BMW, Nissan and the Chrysler group each confirmed plans to add diesels to their lineups over the next three to four years"

"BMW will have a diesel in the United States by 2008, said Burkhard Goeschel, BMW board member for purchasing and development.

He would not say which model BMW will offer. But if BMW follows the trend, it would put a diesel in something large and fuel-thirsty, such as the X5 SUV or 7-series sedan."

"Mike Jackson, CEO of AutoNation Inc., believes diesels will catch on in cars. 'Diesels have made fantastic strides,' Jackson says. 'They have great performance, tremendous torque, which America loves, plus the fuel efficiency.' "

You can bet a well equipped diesel X5 will be $70k and a diesel 7er >$85k.

Stumblefoot

IMO... $4 gas isn't the problem... take a look at the horrible design of the R. It's butt ugly.

Package it right (design, specs, options) and they will come for $70K. They'll never come for the R.

GL Fahrer

M-B only has plans for four diesel variants in the foreseeable future:
E320
ML320
R320
GL320

No Others.

When the other Luxury makes enter the ring with serious diesel intentions, you can bet that M-B will take more chances with "Fringe" diesel variants like the V-8. The fact still remains that those who can afford $70,000 cars do not consider high gas prices enough of a deterrent to hunt for diesel pumps and get their hands all "stinky". Power is not an issue here because the 5.5L will be roughly the same as the 420 diesel.

harkgar

What about the torque? Talk is cheap but torque is what Americans want.

Why do you think the Powerstrokes, Duramaxes and Cummins sell in such large numbers with their high prices? There is a demand for these mega twisters. Customers want them as full luxury transporters rather than basic tow trucks. That is why Ford has "Harley Davidson" diesel trucks.

StevethePilot

+1.

I'd have gotten a diesel Camry, a diesel Land Cruiser, diesel almost-anything from Volvo before I'd even think of a diesel R-class. I think it'll take a few good hooks in - something from Chrysler with at least a generation-2 diesel engine will help tremendously - and the U.S. market could well grab on to the diesels with both hands. Add to that the possiblity of 100mpg+ ratings for diesel hybrids and you're talking about people in this market discovering one of the worst-kept secrets in Europe.

GL Fahrer

There is no mainstream market for diesels primarily because there has never been a need for it. (U.S. fuel is cheap) Secondly, there is an inadequate infrastructure currently supporting the convenient location of diesel fuel pumps in the U.S. 90% of M-Bs are sold on the East/West coast Tex. and Fla. The only dependable supply of Diesel pumps are everywhere else; the mid-west.

Don't miss the point. We keep looking at the practicality of a diesel product when we need to consider the impracticality of the M-B customer.

A luxury driver wants convenience and wants everyone to know that he/she is willing to pay for it.. A $70,000-$80,000 GL550 is about status and convenience, not practicality. It’s about the badge, and the betterment of your neighbors. Anyone who considers a diesel is much more pragmatic than the typical luxury buyer. Like it or not, M-B SUV's target the mainstream luxury buyer with "Safety", convenience and status. Fuel economy and torque are secondary.

It's not the eighties any more; as long as Lexus, Infinity, BMW and Cadillac keep kicking ***, M-B has to play the "Volume" game...which has no room on the bench for fringe players.

Newbie_2_MB

My $.02 here...

I believe one of the reasons why diesel's do not sell well in the US is lack of education. Many Americans believe that diesels are smelly and belch out black smoke. If the public were more educated, maybe they would buy more diesels.

Availability of diesel fuel is another issue. A 2004 study by the US Dept. of Energy showed that 23% of respondents felt that availability of diesel fuel was such a problem that they would not buy a diesel vehicle (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles..._fotw326.html). Again, I think education could help here.

I have to wonder if the automobile manufacturers are not somewhat opposed to producing more diesel engines. Is there more profitability in producing a gasoline engine vs. a diesel engine?

Maybe it all comes down to supply & demand...consumers do not know enough to demand diesel engines, so the auto manufacturers simply do not make them.

GL Fahrer

Jen,
Yours was one of the most cogent replies I have read concerning this topic.

You are right: Americans are not educated when it comes to diesel. They never had to be with fuel being so cheap.

Europens are educated about diesel because they always had to be with fuel prices 3 to 4x U.S. prices.

What's more, the development and production costs for diesel engines are much more expensive than equivalent petrol engines. Not a good strategy when you are squeezing every penny out of MSRP just to keep pace with your luxury competion (who have no diesel).

Newbie_2_MB

Thanks! I'm a Human Resources Director and a big believer in training/educating people. When a manager comes to my office & tells me they want to fire one of their employees because "they don't know how to do their job", my first question is, "Are they properly trained?" 9 times out of 10, the answer is no.

I believe a lot of ignorance (for lack of a better word) is caused by lack of knowledge.

I mentioned the 320 to my parents and told them about it being a diesel. My Mom's reaction was "all diesels smell and are noisy". She remembers the VW Rabbit diesel that a friend of ours had in the 1970's. Now, my parents are in their 80's, so I guess they are entitled to their opinions, but times change folks, and so have diesel engines!

StevethePilot

The question of an infrastructure for diesel fuel pumps is again one of lack of education; I'd say 2/3 of the stations I pass have at least one diesel pump here in the Phoenix area, and the reason is that we're big SUV and pickup truck drivers out here so it's the demand that's driven the market. The same could easily happen anywhere in the U.S. and with diesel producers pushing how clean ULSD is it well could happen. People will buy diesels not just because gas is expensive (in US terms) but because they're going to believe it's cleaner than gas (may or may not be true, honestly I don't know) and because they see it as a means to easing our petrolium demand. Now, all this will depend on an energy policy that pushes diesel as a way to acheive these things, and if the diesel auto producers of the world are smart they'll see to it that the policy is enforced.

You tell me to not miss the point; that the GL500/550 is a status symbol. It's funny how out here for a while a diesel Excursion was just the same, and sometimes it's the F-350 Powerstroke that does it. Mix "cowboys" (note the quotes) with "status" and more often than not diesel is part of the equation. And the more of us that buy the diesels and say, "Look what kind of mileage I'm getting!" to our rich friends, the more likely demand's going to go up.

I do see continued resistance from old-schoolers being a deterrant to the whole idea. I get CNet TV on my Tivo and the fellow who reviews autos (probably in his 50's) reviewed the Bluetec. He had the hood open, brought his head down near the engine, raised his voice way more than he needed to and said, "It's really noisy down here with the hood open ..." closed the hood, which made the engine nearly silent and said, "... not as much with the hood closed but you can still hear it!" I guess he misses his electric car?

nantucketsleigh

Perhaps the most effective way to educate the U.S. consumer on the value of diesels would be to bring over high performance diesel cars and trucks that would appeal to automotive enthusiasts who are the most influential opinion makers. It is true that the U.S. exposure to diesels was with real clunkers. Clever auto marketers would do well to introduce premium diesels which can outperform their gasoline counterparts with superior economy and longevity.

GL Fahrer

...which brings us full circle; M-B is not going to introduce a $70K+ diesel to the U.S.

Nevada Jack

They already have... A fully loaded GL320CDI runs over $70K.

60% of the MB line was once diesel in the US and history will repeat itself. The 300 SD will not remain the only S Class to have had a diesel engine in the US. Your logic appears to you to be sound but reality will show that the diesel engine will return in huge numbers in the US, led by luxury car makers mostly from Germany beginning in 2010.

GL Fahrer

Maybe three people this year have fully- loaded a 320 (V-6). That kind of money finds customers moving into V-8's.

History will repeat itself?.....
When M-B had a large diesel fleet it's sales volumes were at best 50-60K units/year...and there was no Japanese competition. What's more, there are virtually no more "Old-School" customers who buy a Mercedes and keep it for 10+ years. The majority of luxury customers lease their cars for only two-three years and then trade-in for newer badges, bells and whistles...not the typical diesel rationale. (over the long term, the premium paid for a diesel will certainly be recovered, but not over two years and 30K miles)

It's a volume game now, and M-B just sold 250K vehicles in '06 and is still struggling in the luxury segment to maintain a lousy share.
The potential SUV customers who are walking away from M-B are not going into diesels. Sad to say, M-B SUV's have to be targeted to the 90% and not the 10% customer who pays a lot more and waits five months for an order to arrive. These customers will not get the M-B brand into the volumes necessary to compete in the Luxury SUV market.
A MAJOR shift in public awareness in the U.S. is the only way the 90% customer would consider paying a premium for diesel. This is why there will be no Gl420 in the U.S. and that is "reality".

Nevada Jack

"Maybe three people this year have fully- loaded a 320 (V-6). That kind of money finds customers moving into V-8's."

What is your secret source for this tidbit of information

"over the long term, the premium paid for a diesel will certainly be recovered, but not over two years and 30K miles"

As I remember the GL320CDI is priced less than the GL450


"A MAJOR shift in public awareness in the U.S. is the only way the 90% customer would consider paying a premium for diesel. This is why there will be no Gl420 in the U.S. and that is "reality"."

The MAJOR shift in public awareness will happen when ALL major makers start marketing their diesels and buyers find out that diesels are clean, they are quiet and they are powerful. That awareness is starting with the MB new Bluetec's and the other lines that will follow as stated before in 2010. Leasing will have no real impact if the diesel engine does eventually cost a little more, since leaser's will merely pay a little more each month since many cannot afford the car any other way.

PS: I am not a fan of JDP but here is one of their estimates:

The latest J.D. Power study 'Global Outlook For Diesel' forecasts that diesels will account for more than 15 per cent of new registrations in North America by 2015. On this basis, Mercedes-Benz will systematically expand its BLUETEC® range. The company has announced that it intends to offer three new BLUETEC® models (the R, ML and GL Class) – meeting the even more stringent BIN 5 standard – in all 50 US states by as early as 2008. But BLUETEC® vehicles are more than just the cleanest diesel models in the world. They also consume 20 to 40 per cent less fuel than comparable vehicles with spark-ignition engines.

oinick

Maybe three people this year have fully- loaded a 320 (V-6). That kind of money finds customers moving into V-8's.


I am proud to know I am one of only three people who loaded my GL 320 (everything but distronic and keyless go).

I don't see the need for a diesel V8. I traded a gasoline V8 for this car and the performance is at least as good, and better on the highway, which is what I mostly wanted it for.

In the end only MBUSA will settle this debate by doing whatever they will do, but from a market and post-sales/service issue, it seems illogical for MBUSA to introduce two diesels into the GL lineup. I am not saying that they won't bring in the GL420, but I doubt they will keep the GL320 if they do. It makes more sense for them to market the 420 in the upper price ranges like in GL and S classes, and keep the 320 in the E and ML classes. That is the only way, IMHO, that varying versions of the same model will not cannibalize themselves. Pricier cars will justify pricier engines, if you follow the logic.

Whoever said that Americans want to get their cars now rather than paying and waiting five months for theirs to be built was right. The more engine choices the more difficult it will be for dealers to keep them all in stock in adequate variations, making it harder to get the car quickly.

I don't know the answer to this: has MBUSA ever had more than two diesel engines in the US market at one time? I think they had the 220 4 cylinder and 300 5 cylinder diesels here simultaneously in the seventies.

Nevada Jack

I think that perhaps when Bluetec is introduced probably in 2009 now, the GL may have a 420 diesel model and the 320CDI could very possibly be discontinued but not really necessary.

And yes their were several diesel models available in the '80 era at the same time. My mind is not clear on the models but the 300D, the 300DT, the 300SD, the 350SD and perhaps the 220 series earlier on in the '70's.

carpersn

[QUOTE=GL Fahrer;2299084] Look what happened to the R-Class when they tried to create a market that doesn't exist...the "Sports Tourer" segment.QUOTE]

I think you are incorrect. GM has just introduced 3 models of "sports tourer" or whatever category you want to say it is, plus the Mazda C-9, and those are right off the top of my head. The R, while off a bit in some of its design cues, was dead-on in terms of where the market is going. I think before it's all said and done, the R will be a successful model for MB.