Biodiesel
#2
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ML500
I found my answer here
http://www.mbusa.com/locator/jsp/dealer_state_list.jsp
Time to find biodiesel.
Has anybody used it anyways?
http://www.mbusa.com/locator/jsp/dealer_state_list.jsp
Time to find biodiesel.
Has anybody used it anyways?
Last edited by BETO; 07-20-2007 at 05:27 PM.
#3
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That link looks like ML500 accessories.
You can use up to 5% biodiesel. Anything more voids warranty. I've not knowingly used it, but I've only filled the tank once!
You can use up to 5% biodiesel. Anything more voids warranty. I've not knowingly used it, but I've only filled the tank once!
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I guess I clicked the wrong link
Here:
Mercedes-Benz USA now approves the use of B5 biodiesel (standard automotive diesel with a maximum five percent biodiesel content) in all Common-rail Direct Injection diesel (CDI) engines. As biodiesel can be refined from a variety of raw materials resulting in widely varying properties, the only approved biodiesel content is one that meets ASTM D6751 specification and that has the necessary oxidation stability (min. 6h, proved with EN14112 method) to prevent damages to the system from deposits and/or corrosion.
Please ask your service station for further information. If the B5 biodiesel blend is not sufficiently labeled to clearly indicate that it meets the above standards, please do not use it. The Mercedes-Benz limited warranty does not cover damage caused by the use of fuels not meeting Mercedes-Benz-approved fuel standards.
Here:
Mercedes-Benz USA now approves the use of B5 biodiesel (standard automotive diesel with a maximum five percent biodiesel content) in all Common-rail Direct Injection diesel (CDI) engines. As biodiesel can be refined from a variety of raw materials resulting in widely varying properties, the only approved biodiesel content is one that meets ASTM D6751 specification and that has the necessary oxidation stability (min. 6h, proved with EN14112 method) to prevent damages to the system from deposits and/or corrosion.
Please ask your service station for further information. If the B5 biodiesel blend is not sufficiently labeled to clearly indicate that it meets the above standards, please do not use it. The Mercedes-Benz limited warranty does not cover damage caused by the use of fuels not meeting Mercedes-Benz-approved fuel standards.
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ML500
Here is the MBUSA link
http://www.mbusa.com/locator/jsp/dealer_state_list.jsp
http://www.mbusa.com/locator/jsp/dealer_state_list.jsp
#6
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I haven't used biodiesel in any car, but I haved used it in my tractor for a few of years now. I have used many concentrations from 5% to 100%. Most manufacturers limit approved concentrations to 5 or 10%.
Positives
1) Better lubrication - your engine will run quiter
2) Bio - saves the world
Negative
1) Gels more quickly - be careful in the winter
2) More Solvent - will clean all of the dirt out of your fuel system and clog your fuel filter or introduce it into your engine - especially in older engines.
My personal reccomendation: Use 2% or 5% to maintain your warranty and gain some of the advantages, while minimizing the negatives.
P.S. The higher the concentration, the more the exhaust will smell like french fries.
Positives
1) Better lubrication - your engine will run quiter
2) Bio - saves the world
Negative
1) Gels more quickly - be careful in the winter
2) More Solvent - will clean all of the dirt out of your fuel system and clog your fuel filter or introduce it into your engine - especially in older engines.
My personal reccomendation: Use 2% or 5% to maintain your warranty and gain some of the advantages, while minimizing the negatives.
P.S. The higher the concentration, the more the exhaust will smell like french fries.
#7
Resurrecting this old thread to see if anyone here has started using biodiesel yet. We just bought a used 320 and I am considering B20 despite the fact that MB only approves up to B5.
Has anyone been running something higher than B5?
Has anyone been running something higher than B5?
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#8
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Just my 2 cents' worth!
#9
I'll be using biodiesel in our 320. I firmly believe that there shouldn't be any worries long as the fuel was purchased from a ASTM certified processor, ie, not "home-brewed", SVO, WVO...etc. It is the main reason for us to purchase this car.
I've been running B99 in a 83 diesel since I bought it a year ago and I have not had any clog or accumulated crud issue. I too was concerned with it being an 83 with 160K and with more solvent content in B99, it would clean the dirty fuel system and clog the fuel filter; however, the only stall incident I had was in the early fall that the B99 gel'ed one morning on my way to work. Fixed that by "diluting" it with petro-diesel.
Unfortunately, the price of biodiesel went up recently and most of the biodiesel retailers around us would only offer B20.
I've been running B99 in a 83 diesel since I bought it a year ago and I have not had any clog or accumulated crud issue. I too was concerned with it being an 83 with 160K and with more solvent content in B99, it would clean the dirty fuel system and clog the fuel filter; however, the only stall incident I had was in the early fall that the B99 gel'ed one morning on my way to work. Fixed that by "diluting" it with petro-diesel.
Unfortunately, the price of biodiesel went up recently and most of the biodiesel retailers around us would only offer B20.
#10
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I think the biggest risk is to the common rail pump, but that being said most cars manufactured in this decade use solvent resistant plastics. I think I would ramp up to B20 rather than hit it all at once if you are dead set on giving it a try, you don't want the solvent action to break all the guck free at once. Fuel filters ar like a three hour job on a GL, or so I hear...
#11
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Just so you're aware ... this engine is NOT like your father's diesel. Fuel injectors are $750 each, fuel pump is $1500. Etc.
#12
Super Member
I asked this same question in the ML section. Click this link. https://mbworld.org/forums/m-class-w164/237782-biodiesel-cdi.html
I agree that as long as it meets the ASTM standard, there should be no issues. There must be someone in the world that has or is using this. If I could find it, I would, but the nearest pump is over 200 miles from me, and cost MORE!!
Oh well.
I agree that as long as it meets the ASTM standard, there should be no issues. There must be someone in the world that has or is using this. If I could find it, I would, but the nearest pump is over 200 miles from me, and cost MORE!!
Oh well.
#14
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If only...
I am actually considering the home made alternative. Just can't find a raw material source yet. Found a good Government report that indicates no damage to the DPF or other systems. See this. http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/40015.pdf
Also Mercedes has been testing a C class CDI in India running on biodiesel made from the Jatropha plant. Click this. http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-...-0-0-0,00.html
Soon we diesel owners will have our day. 20c per Gal. made at home, grown at home. Then all will be right with the world..
I am actually considering the home made alternative. Just can't find a raw material source yet. Found a good Government report that indicates no damage to the DPF or other systems. See this. http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/40015.pdf
Also Mercedes has been testing a C class CDI in India running on biodiesel made from the Jatropha plant. Click this. http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-...-0-0-0,00.html
Soon we diesel owners will have our day. 20c per Gal. made at home, grown at home. Then all will be right with the world..
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
#15
If only...
I am actually considering the home made alternative. Just can't find a raw material source yet. Found a good Government report that indicates no damage to the DPF or other systems. See this. http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/40015.pdf
Also Mercedes has been testing a C class CDI in India running on biodiesel made from the Jatropha plant. Click this. http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-...-0-0-0,00.html
Soon we diesel owners will have our day. 20c per Gal. made at home, grown at home. Then all will be right with the world..![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
I am actually considering the home made alternative. Just can't find a raw material source yet. Found a good Government report that indicates no damage to the DPF or other systems. See this. http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/40015.pdf
Also Mercedes has been testing a C class CDI in India running on biodiesel made from the Jatropha plant. Click this. http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-...-0-0-0,00.html
Soon we diesel owners will have our day. 20c per Gal. made at home, grown at home. Then all will be right with the world..
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
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Good luck with that - not likely. Have you heard the more recent news about Biodiesel in germany, the UK and the US? Thus far it has not even remotely met expectations in terms of environmental impact and cost. Strong likelihood that among other things, tax incentives will be removed.
#17
I would be very interested in reading up on that. Because of the long history of biodiesel use by farm equipment, city busses and certain other industrial or government equipment in the US, I had assumed that the way to go would be recycled used cooking oil. What are some of the problems they're coming up with?
Biodiesel just does not scale for more common use.
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STP
#19
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![Thumbs up](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif)
Is there a site you could point me to that could tell me what kind of emissions they're talking about? Also, are they talking about "new" biodiesel when they say there's a lot of fossil fuel in it, or recycled stuff which is already used and is just headed for the landfill (where it will do no damage as its biodegradable)? I think this sounds a lot more like anti-ethanol arguments (which I completely agree with) than anti-biodiesel arguments. Ethanol is a waste of resources, energy, and so forth, whereas reused oil either refined into biodiesel or simply burned with its solids intact (which can be done in the right pre-heated environment) doesn't seem to fit the argument you're presenting. I'm sure I'm just not understanding it properly.
STP
STP
#20
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I think WMHJR is confusing the Ethanol argument. Ethanol does have its drawbacks, but most of the bio diesel being generated is waste vegetable oil from restaurants, (hence the "french fry" smell) and the I have yet to find ANY data to support that it produces more harmful emissions than fossil fuel.
The food stock that is grown for fuel, corn/soy etc is from existing farmers not from deforestations, thus the recent rise in food prices. In my view, the Jatropha plant, which is a non edible weed, is the way we should be looking towards. High oil yield per acre, non competition with food, and the best, it grows best in the worst places.
I think there must be someone in the world that is running their 07+ CDI on higher than B5. If so please respond... Else, I will be the first when I find/make some.
Wish Willie Nelson would jump in here
The food stock that is grown for fuel, corn/soy etc is from existing farmers not from deforestations, thus the recent rise in food prices. In my view, the Jatropha plant, which is a non edible weed, is the way we should be looking towards. High oil yield per acre, non competition with food, and the best, it grows best in the worst places.
I think there must be someone in the world that is running their 07+ CDI on higher than B5. If so please respond... Else, I will be the first when I find/make some.
Wish Willie Nelson would jump in here
![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
#21
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Also the biodiesel websites claims cleaner emissions than fossil diesel.
Below are pics from B100 and B0 seasons.
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Dodge 3500 diesel, Jeep Commander
On the diesel truck forums this is a favorite topic.
It seems that emissions is mostly better from biodiesel, but its not all that simple. If there is a catalytic converter, it can be harmed by some bio-fuels, but not all, as far as I know.
An old diesel engine may have problems with it, as even a small percentage of bio will cause the old type gaskets to shrink. Leaks and more leaks. The cummins guys who run bio are seeing quite a bit of this problem. The new engines, however mostly use different gasket materials so this is not an issue with them.
The new clean common rail systems require the fuel to be VERY clean. That means you have to strain out the french fries
(I couldn't resist)
Anyhow, cummins says the percentage of biodiesel to regular diesel must be low, else it can affect the pump and injectors.
The lubricity of biodiesel is mostly better than the ultra-low sulfur we get forced on us that has 20% less energy per gallon than we used to get 5 years ago.
The detriments may be $$$:
1. If you cook up your own fuel in the garage, its really hard to tax it. (how terrible...hahah)
2. Violates most warrantees. (oh well)
3. What to do with the sludge you strain out. (mulch for neighbors flowers?)
4. messes up some kinds of seals (older engines mostly)
5. variable gel-point of fuel. When it gets cold, it could turn to jelly and plug up your pump or fuel lines. This could be very expensive. It will ruin a pump pretty fast as a gel. The gel point is not consistent like fuel from a refinery.
6. Overall, not as much energy per gallon as petroleum diesel
7. kids could get addicted to fast-food while you're picking up oil![EEK!](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Benefits are:
1. clean burning
2. super cheap for you to make (kinda messy though)
3. better lubricity than standard fuel
4. kids can play at McDonalds while you're pumping out their used oil![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Lots of guys running bio successfully, but usually low percentage like 5%.
We have 2 guys locally making biodiesel from french fry juice, and they swear by it. So far both have no problems at all.
It seems that emissions is mostly better from biodiesel, but its not all that simple. If there is a catalytic converter, it can be harmed by some bio-fuels, but not all, as far as I know.
An old diesel engine may have problems with it, as even a small percentage of bio will cause the old type gaskets to shrink. Leaks and more leaks. The cummins guys who run bio are seeing quite a bit of this problem. The new engines, however mostly use different gasket materials so this is not an issue with them.
The new clean common rail systems require the fuel to be VERY clean. That means you have to strain out the french fries
![rolf](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
Anyhow, cummins says the percentage of biodiesel to regular diesel must be low, else it can affect the pump and injectors.
The lubricity of biodiesel is mostly better than the ultra-low sulfur we get forced on us that has 20% less energy per gallon than we used to get 5 years ago.
The detriments may be $$$:
1. If you cook up your own fuel in the garage, its really hard to tax it. (how terrible...hahah)
2. Violates most warrantees. (oh well)
3. What to do with the sludge you strain out. (mulch for neighbors flowers?)
4. messes up some kinds of seals (older engines mostly)
5. variable gel-point of fuel. When it gets cold, it could turn to jelly and plug up your pump or fuel lines. This could be very expensive. It will ruin a pump pretty fast as a gel. The gel point is not consistent like fuel from a refinery.
6. Overall, not as much energy per gallon as petroleum diesel
7. kids could get addicted to fast-food while you're picking up oil
![EEK!](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Benefits are:
1. clean burning
2. super cheap for you to make (kinda messy though)
3. better lubricity than standard fuel
4. kids can play at McDonalds while you're pumping out their used oil
![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Lots of guys running bio successfully, but usually low percentage like 5%.
We have 2 guys locally making biodiesel from french fry juice, and they swear by it. So far both have no problems at all.
#23
I think WMHJR is confusing the Ethanol argument. Ethanol does have its drawbacks, but most of the bio diesel being generated is waste vegetable oil from restaurants, (hence the "french fry" smell) and the I have yet to find ANY data to support that it produces more harmful emissions than fossil fuel.
The food stock that is grown for fuel, corn/soy etc is from existing farmers not from deforestations, thus the recent rise in food prices. In my view, the Jatropha plant, which is a non edible weed, is the way we should be looking towards. High oil yield per acre, non competition with food, and the best, it grows best in the worst places.
I think there must be someone in the world that is running their 07+ CDI on higher than B5. If so please respond... Else, I will be the first when I find/make some.
Wish Willie Nelson would jump in here![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
The food stock that is grown for fuel, corn/soy etc is from existing farmers not from deforestations, thus the recent rise in food prices. In my view, the Jatropha plant, which is a non edible weed, is the way we should be looking towards. High oil yield per acre, non competition with food, and the best, it grows best in the worst places.
I think there must be someone in the world that is running their 07+ CDI on higher than B5. If so please respond... Else, I will be the first when I find/make some.
Wish Willie Nelson would jump in here
![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
#24
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Whatever happened to that "offal-to-crude" machine some guy was making? He could take just about anything, apply heat and pressure, and come up with a heavy crude (something good for like generators and such) with burnable by-products that helped generate the power the machine needed.
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BiodIesel versus SVO
Those guys over at GreaseCar have some good information on using veg oil in cars. They also have fuel heating methods that prevent gelling of even straight vegetable oil (aka "SVO"), though that system requires stopping and starting on regular diesel so that's what is in your lines to begin with.
They also have a little information on the differences between BD and SVO.
From another source;
STP
They also have a little information on the differences between BD and SVO.
From another source;
Biodiesel is produced from any fat or oil such as soybean oil, through a refinery process called transesterification. This process is a reaction of the oil with an alcohol to remove the glycerin, which is a by-product of biodiesel production. Fuel-grade biodiesel must be produced to strict industry specifications (ASTM D6751) in order to insure proper performance. Biodiesel is the only alternative fuel to have fully completed the health effects testing requirements of the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments. Biodiesel that meets ASTM D6751 and is legally registered with the Environmental Protection Agency is a legal motor fuel for sale and distribution. Raw vegetable oil cannot meet biodiesel fuel specifications, it is not registered with the EPA, and it is not a legal motor fuel.
And again;Biodiesel is the only alternative fuel to have fully completed the health effects testing requirements of the Clean Air Act. The use of biodiesel in a conventional diesel engine results in substantial reduction of unburned hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and particulate matter compared to emissions from diesel fuel. In addition, the exhaust emissions of sulfur oxides and sulfates (major components of acid rain) from biodiesel are essentially eliminated compared to diesel.
Of the major exhaust pollutants, both unburned hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides are ozone or smog forming precursors. The use of biodiesel results in a substantial reduction of unburned hydrocarbons. Emissions of nitrogen oxides are either slightly reduced or slightly increased depending on the duty cycle of the engine and testing methods used. [ed: My Emphasis] Based on engine testing, using the most stringent emissions testing protocols required by EPA for certification of fuels or fuel additives in the US, the overall ozone forming potential of the speciated hydrocarbon emissions from biodiesel was nearly 50 percent less than that measured for diesel fuel.
So I cannot find anything saying that Biodiesel has more emissions than petrolium diesel, [correction: see NOX info above] but the use of SVO isn't technically legal as a fuel. Means you've got to remove the glycerine before loading up! It's interesting. Lots more research to do.STP
Last edited by StevethePilot; 04-25-2008 at 12:58 PM. Reason: re-reading the Biodiesel info ...