KrustyKustom

Visiting with my dealer today regarding the timing chain replacement the cost came in at just under 3k. This replaces all components (sprockets, sliders, tensioner, gaskets, timing chain etc) with 11 hours of labor. In going through the parts list and labor charge i think they are wanting to charge for the special service tools as part of the job, or they are charging me 125% retail on the parts.

Dealership thinks I am crazy for changing the chain out but it has not rattled like it has for me for them and I want to get some serious miles out of this GL.

samiran

Krusty, thanks for the info.

What dealer?

I just heard back from my mechanic that he can't get the tools needed to do the job, but he found a dealer near me that has them. Going to find out tomorrow what the repair will cost.

According to him, there is a TSB for this repair, having to do with a faulty (wasn't exactly sure, but I will get the specifics tomorrow) coating on either a sprocket or roller, which causes premature wear on the chain.

$3K is actually under what number I was worried about, so if the dealer near me is way over that (wouldn't be surprised if they come in closer to $6K), I'm not adverse to having it shipped around for repair.

11 hours is under what they have in the service manual for the chain replacement, there it is listed as 16.1-- did they give you a deal on the labor, or did they wrap the job up quickly?

How's the car sound after repair? Smooth as butter?

Thanks again for the info. I was hoping to get serious miles out of mine, too, but my mood right now is a heck of a lot closer to selling/trading it in; unless I can get it repaired for under $3k-$4k.

KrustyKustom

I have not had the work done yet, just got it quoted. I think I am going to have them order the parts and do it next week. The dealer is in Houston, Star Motor Cars.

I have "heard" of a TSB on this but yet to see anything. Mine started faintly slapping around 44k and when I brought it to the dealers attention they said "functioning properly". Anyway, i do not think they have given me any special deal they said slightly lifting the engine is part of the procedure as the front part of the oil pan has to come down. At that point (4 hrs into it) they want to check the pan for residual metal parts, he said if all looks good they are going to recommend not changing the chain but I say change it anyway as we are 4 hours into it.

I have super maintained and carefully driven this car and I find it super coincidential that 2011 models are having this issue. I look forward to checking out the parts and want to measure the new chain with the old.

samiran

Just heard back from the dealer that has my car.

Disaster. $2500 to change the chain and relevant "roller". Take off the valve cover, and they see that the chain guide is cracked.

This is an additional $3700 in work, apparently, to replace the chain guide.

Total repair will be close to $7,000 with tax.

Do you have a write up for the quote from Star Motor Cars? Does it include changing the chain guides? My previous understanding with the SA was that my quote did include that, but apparently it does not.

$3K I could swallow. $7K makes this car a pile of useless metal, IMHO.

samiran

Some more information on the TSB:

LI05.10-P-049909
Date of Issue: July 6, 2010

"Rattling of thumping noise from the area of the chain drive approx. 2-5 seconds after engine start."

"Timing chain may have stretched"

"Valid for vehicles with mileage greater than 31,000, and less than 155,000 miles. "

Remedy
"Check timing chain and replace if necessary"

The only part listed is "Bushing Chain", note:"Modified IC+ chain", A 000 993 63 76

Krusty: My guess is that the quote they gave you was only to replace the chain. Any other parts/related issues they won't discover until you open it.

Now that I've had a few minutes to calm down a little bit, this job is expensive enough that I intend to quote out the guide replacement. I'm hoping to find a shop that will do it for less than the $3700 quoted. Otherwise, it seems reasonable to replace the chain, and get rid of the car ASAP.

BlownV8

So sorry to hear of your troubles. It seems that it is becoming more and more common. The diesels can be a killer on maintenance and repairs.

Looks like MB knows there are issues. Sucks that they are not willing to foot the repair bill.

KrustyKustom

Samaritan, I totally feel your pain. As far as my quote I do not have it in writing as I was going back and forth with the dealer on the phone. It took them about a day to determine part numbers etc. I was writing down the items on the quote as he was talking and it did include the chain sliders, all sprockets (primary and secondary), chain, tensioner, some gaskets and new cam plugs.

This issue is so consistent with 2011 models I agree that MB should cover something. I have babied mine with over maintenance.

Thanks for the TSB.

samiran

Think you could PM your service contact name over at Star Motor Cars, so I can quote out the job there? I'm assuming they would recognize the issue when I describe it, no need to refer to you by name, but if they've already done the homework once, it is easy to do again.

I'm thinking I could get the whole thing bolted together, shipped down to Houston, fixed, and drive it back for less money than finishing the job here. What've I've been told is that the additional work to do the chain guides is 20.4 hours above and beyond the chain, which itself was double-digit hours.

I suspect, however, that changing the chain after changing the guides is pretty straight forward, and the mistake is to try and change the chain first (through the valve cover), then try and change the guides (through the oil pan).

I've got some drawings to look through, and I think I could provide more details, but I'd like to do my homework first.

KrustyKustom

Samaritan, (sorry spell check). Somebody at your dealer must be pulling your leg over there. The timing chain slides are right there once the chain and sprockets are out. There should not be double digit labor ontop of the chain labor!

If you have not subscribed for 24 hrs to startek info EPCnet you should. You can see step by step instructions for whatever procedure and the allocated hours to do it. I suspect they are estimating doing those two jobs separate in the database to come up with those hours. What does your dealer charge per hour?

Check your PM....

samiran

I keep delving further and further into this.

When I was at the dealer on Friday, I think I understand the difference. The timing chain by itself can be replaced through the right-hand valve cover. This is about ~8 hours of labor.

My understanding previously was that they quoted me for the "bigger" job, not the "smaller" job, since I had asked for the same list of components (slides/guides/sprockets, etc. . .), and it is my understanding that once you've pulled the engine, dropped the transmission, dropped the oil pan, and removed the timing cover, changing the chain is trivial (almost no additional hours), and you can change all the parts (relatively cheap) in one fell swoop.

If anyone else is actually going to be crazy enough to do this repair, make sure they quote you for pulling the engine, not examining/replacing the timing chain through the valve cover.

Think of it this way: The timing chain is a precision manufactured component comprised of high-grade, alloy tool steel designed to last forever, under intense stress.

The guides/slides/rails? Little pieces of plastic that look like parts of a children's toy. If the chain is under enough stress to seriously stretch, what are the chances that the guides have survived in good condition?

Frankly, that's my main point with the dealership now, in terms of where I go from here: I specifically expressed concern about the guides/rails, but somehow got scheduled/quoted for the "small" job, which does not permit replacement of all 5 of the rails. Knowing that the chain is bad, it makes sense to replace the other relevant timing parts, particularly as the parts are a very small portion of the overall job cost.

samiran

Update:

Car is at the dealer. Engine pulled. Guides bad. Also, the balance shaft gear is worn.

MB/Dealer have offered to help a little with the cost of the repair (about 15%). I have no idea what else there could be behind the balance shaft, but I'm shocked at the extensiveness of this repair, for a car that was running "alright", except for a noise at startup.

If I knew now, what I knew when this process started, I'm not sure I'd have kept the car.

My guess is that if you have a similar problem, virtually all of the related components (sprokets/chain/guides) are worn and need to be replaced, in the vicinity of $7000-$8000 of repair.

I'll provide another update when (if?) we finish.

KrustyKustom

See if you can get pics of what the guides look like. How did you end up with the final cost on this? Did your dealer still estimate something around 30 hrs labor?

Did they acknowledge the technical service bulletin?

Keep us posted, I have not sent mine in yet.

KrustyKustom

any updates on the timing chain replacement?


what all was bad?

KrustyKustom

I hope I am not throwing good money after bad but I am sending my GL350 in tomorrow for the timing chain replacement bulletin. They are going to lift the engine out and drop the pan to see what may be there? Then, proceed to replace chain, sprockets and glides.

I will post how it goes...

samiran

Good luck. I'm more and more and more frustrated every day.

Update #1
After they took everything apart, they found that the balance shaft gear was worn, and the balance shaft had to be replaced. Add $1100 to the tab. Lovely.

Updated #2
Repair finished today (about 3 weeks in the shop, total). Once the car was put back together, and they took it for a test drive, they notified me of three potential "near-term" issues:
A) Apparently, there may be some seepage around the oil cooler (oh joy)
B) SA said that there felt like a little bit of hesitation between 1st and 2nd gear. Tech "didn't feel it though". No codes, but suspicious that the transmission might need a new valve body in the next 1-2 years.
C) Multiple codes, but no CEL, for the adblue heater failing. Apparently it is an intermittent failure. Doesn't affect the drive, but will need to be replaced if the CEL comes on and stays on. ~$2000 repair.

Most likely going to try and trade it for an Infiniti or a Lexus, this is pretty nuts. I'll post a final update once I pick it up.

If anyone knows, I was under the impression that the 2011s had the new Viton oil cooler seals, and are unlikely to fail (minor seepage could be from a fuel filter replacement or otherwise). Anyone aware of oil cooler seal failures in the 2011s and newer?

KrustyKustom

Man, sounds like you are having a rough time of it. Mine is at the dealer and they are starting tomorrow morning. Is the balance shaft sprocket not replaceable off the balance shaft? Did the start clatter stop?

It was my understanding the 2010+ models have the purple viton oil cooler seals. Perhaps clean it and see if any oil shows up.

I still have some faith in mine so far as up to now I have not even had a burned out bulb and driving to the dealer today i got 31mpg! Having had 4 suburbans before the GL feels so much more solid and the mileage is great.

I will post my cars progress...fingers crossed.

BlownV8

The 450's are very reliable. Before you give up on the GL, you may want to try one.

alx

what a cluster ****.

please do observe idle time after cold start. you really need to wait up to 30 seconds if engine is cold before driving off. worst thing to do is start engine, put in gear and drive off inside 10-20 seconds. also do not race past 2500 rpms with engine oil cold. in cold weather this can be easily another 20-30 minutes. hell, generally dont spin the diesel over 2500 rpms if you want it to live a long life.

properly treated mb v6 diesel engines are bulletproof. i am starting to see quite a few 07 and 08 trucks with over 200k miles and zero engine problems.

just a random thought.

KrustyKustom

Dude, you are preaching to the choir on the cold start and taking it easy on the engine. I never put it in gear and go in less than a minute or two when hot and when cold I sometimes go back in and get my coffee etc. Also my GL that has the timing chain issue has had 5k mile oil change intervals (Mobil 1 Forumula M/ESP 5-40) since new.


In my reading and observing I think they have a bad run of timing chains and or timing chain slides that is affecting the early 11 models specifically as the Technical Service Bulletin says. The real bummer is they should comp the parts at least. I first noticed the sound about 35k miles and now with 61k miles it is downright nasty. Early on I got the "its a Diesel", or it is functioning as designed without a check engine light.


The car is so good otherwise I am remaining optimistic. Not much to truly compete with its mileage and towing/seating capacity (I have 5 daughters).

chsu74

The tranny is programmed not to shift into a higher gear when cold until it passes 2200RPM. I am sure it is a way to warm the engine faster but it's annoying and manual shift don't always work

samiran

Update #3.

Picked up the car today. The saga continues!

Good news: No noise on startup, starts smoothly. Also, looks like we found the reason for the hesitation entering 1st gear (from stop). Not the transmission. See "Bad news"

Bad news: Apparently, diesel leakage from a bolt they had to re-tap/drill near injector #2. Almost immediately after I drove the car out of the parking lot today, something felt "off". Drove about 300 feet to a stop sign, came to a stop, the vehicle began to seriously vibrate during idle. Immediately went to turn around and get back to the dealer, and the car began to smoke from the engine compartment. It's a divided highway, so you can't just do a U-turn. I stopped the vehicle, and called the service department ASAP.

They came and picked me up, a tech looked at it on the road, and they decided to drive it back once they determined it was leaking diesel, not coolant or oil. Hilariously, they did get it back to the lot, but the leak must have worsened at the approached the lot, and it died right at the entrance sign.

Did a quick diagnosis right in the lot, (took off the crossbar, air intakes, etc . . .) and verified that diesel was leaking from the injector housing where they replaced the bolt. They gave me back my loaner, and it looks like they will have to tow it from the lot to the service area.

A lot of sheepish faces, as they apparently test-drove it 40 miles. That being said, the "hesitation" that they suspected from the transmission valve body is much more likely to be that the engine was starved for fuel. Despite my immediate frustration, this seems like it could be good news.

I'll get another update soon (probably Monday).

Back to the original problem (timing chain and associated components)
When I finally get the car back (assuming there are no new problems), I will post the details from the total repair (balance shaft/chain/glides, etc . . .). I asked about the balance shaft sprocket, and was told that it wasn't really possible to replace the sprocket without the shaft, and the price different in parts wasn't that much anyways.

Total cost, out the door, with contribution from MBUSA and Dealer, was $5602.20, including tax, which is pretty good considering where I was starting from, including the extra repair (balance shaft).

All that being said, I'm pretty shaken about the general condition of the vehicle today, as you really don't expect to pick a car up after repair, and have it start smoking 300 feet from the dealership. On the plus side, they really seem like they want to make it right, and started working on it immediately.

If anyone knows, I'd appreciate any information on whether they are engine damage consequences that can occur from fuel starvation.

samiran

Krusty, I appreciate your vote of confidence in the car ;-). I keep telling my wife, let's get it back, see how she runs, and then decide on what we are going to do.

For all my reliability concerns, we very much like the car.

One comment, based on the noise we've all experienced, I suspect that the allowing the rattle to occur over time is what wore down the various parts in the timing compartment of my engine. The dealer has the same suspicion.

I would suspect, had the noise been properly diagnosed the first time it was noticed, and a new timing chain rolled through the valve cover, none of the other issues (tensioner/glides/balance sprocket) would have occurred.

Sadly, this alone is an expensive repair, but even looking at this thread, it seems like there are a fair number of people living with the occasional sound, unable to document it sufficiently for a repair, all the while battering the engine's timing components.

One thing I was told by the dealership, regarding the balance shaft, is that the design of the diesel really prevents the balance shaft sprocket wear from lighting the CEL, while on the gas version, this would occur pretty closely. Given the condition of the various components in the timing compartment of my engine, I'm shocked the CEL did not come on. It seems like the tensioner working overtime to keep the engine running smoothly and quietly masks the serious damage that is occurring in the engine, preventing a CEL, until it is either properly diagnosed, or the chain is thrown/broken.

KrustyKustom

Samarian, thanks for sharing your experiences, good and bad. Hopefully those that have gone through this will be a help to others. That is a bummer on what your experience was picking up your car. Your description on the long term result description on the stretched chain if left alone is spot on I think. I wondered also how far the cams could be out of sync due to throw a CEL. Maybe a lot.

I have this same motor in a 2012 sprinter and it just sounds different at all rpm. I can hear some slight slap or something in park at 1500 rpm.

You're description on the timing chain tensioner working overtime is spot on. If you recall one of my early posts I replaced the tensioner myself with a new one and the clatter was not only on start up but noticable at idle. When I compared the original to the new oem one the original was a good 3/4" longer relaxed sitting on the table. Upon closer inspection the original had been "over stretched", like the oil pressure had pushed it further than it was designed to to put tension on the slider. The tensioner is like a piston in a bore, it has a spring inside to tension until the pressure builds I suppose. The other thing I noticed on my original tensioner was the end was "hammered" or super polished from impacts which tells me it was pulsing as the chain flexed and relaxed. Clearly the chain has stretched.

I am really curious as to how much of the sprocket teeth are worn down. Also apparently there's a magnet in the pan which will grab metal, but I suspect the wear is in the form of fine shavings rather than larger pieces.

Scary part of these stretching is to someone's that's not familiar with the normal sounds they may not know until it chunks the chain. Mine sounds great on start when hot, just cold is when it sounds so bad.

Mine is at dealer and they just started on it, will post updates as I get them. Maybe I can get some pics, dealer is cool about it.

KrustyKustom

Coming out of the shop today, hope all is well....

samiran

That is awesome. Good luck!

Mine remains in the shop.