Diesel vs Gas $$$ TCO
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 724
Likes: 31
Car free at the moment
I don't need to find a twin turbo v8 to make that power, I can look at naturally aspirated engines.
Off the top of my head, look at a toyota 5.7 liter engine. 381 hp/401 lbs-ft regular 89 octane fuel.
Tires? GL350 came with run flats due to no spare tire due to stupid packaging (read: location) of the DEF tank. As a result you get to pay the high tire prices for run-flats vs. the gassers. I know this changed in MY13 (funny it took how many years to implement such a common sense change).
I'm not here to bash, I'm here to inform. Sounds like a lot of MB owners are living in a cloud and then get butt hurt when the truth is told to them.
Off the top of my head, look at a toyota 5.7 liter engine. 381 hp/401 lbs-ft regular 89 octane fuel.
Tires? GL350 came with run flats due to no spare tire due to stupid packaging (read: location) of the DEF tank. As a result you get to pay the high tire prices for run-flats vs. the gassers. I know this changed in MY13 (funny it took how many years to implement such a common sense change).
I'm not here to bash, I'm here to inform. Sounds like a lot of MB owners are living in a cloud and then get butt hurt when the truth is told to them.
Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 118
Likes: 5
From: Ohio
2006 E320 CDI
I drive a 2006 E320 CDI.
I inquired about the cost of having my fuel filter changed at my dealer and was quoted $199 before tax.
I searched and found a Hengst fuel filter at Autohaus for $23 and change, top radiator hose with MB clip and "O" ring (with MB logo) $21 and the Mann air filter for $18. Got free shipping and no sales tax.
My indy popped them all in and properly primed the fuel system and drained the cooling system and topped off the radiator with the 15 year type coolant for $85, cash-no receipt, while I waited.
There are many unique ways to work down maintenance costs if you are creative. With diesel there no costs for sparkplugs, plug wires, coil packs or coil on plug. In very low temps my diesel starts when gassers won't (-31 F)
On a different note...The 2006 I6 diesel does not use adblue. But if it did, I would go directly to a 'big rig' truck stop/plaza and purchase it there. Currently at Flying J it is $2.79-2.89 per gallon. Not even $22 for 7.5 gallons!
Like I said, a little bit of creativity can cut your maintenance costs significantly. That is unless you just like to biitch.
I inquired about the cost of having my fuel filter changed at my dealer and was quoted $199 before tax.
I searched and found a Hengst fuel filter at Autohaus for $23 and change, top radiator hose with MB clip and "O" ring (with MB logo) $21 and the Mann air filter for $18. Got free shipping and no sales tax.
My indy popped them all in and properly primed the fuel system and drained the cooling system and topped off the radiator with the 15 year type coolant for $85, cash-no receipt, while I waited.
There are many unique ways to work down maintenance costs if you are creative. With diesel there no costs for sparkplugs, plug wires, coil packs or coil on plug. In very low temps my diesel starts when gassers won't (-31 F)
On a different note...The 2006 I6 diesel does not use adblue. But if it did, I would go directly to a 'big rig' truck stop/plaza and purchase it there. Currently at Flying J it is $2.79-2.89 per gallon. Not even $22 for 7.5 gallons!
Like I said, a little bit of creativity can cut your maintenance costs significantly. That is unless you just like to biitch.
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 761
Likes: 90
From: right to be forgotten
right to be forgotten
Interesting views, especially of a certain individual...Don't fuel filters need replacing on gas (what I would call petrol) cars? Here in the UK it most definitely does...
Over here diesel is most definitely cheaper to run, and I've agreed a fixed price 3 year servicing deal with my providing car dealer as well. Including 20% sales tax that is $1,600. Not bad for what it is over here...Includes ad-blue top ups and unlimited valet cleans
Over here diesel is most definitely cheaper to run, and I've agreed a fixed price 3 year servicing deal with my providing car dealer as well. Including 20% sales tax that is $1,600. Not bad for what it is over here...Includes ad-blue top ups and unlimited valet cleans
Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 118
Likes: 5
From: Ohio
2006 E320 CDI
That diesel fuel is more expensive is very true. At this moment local (Ohio) premium gas is $3.329 gal and diesel is $3.749, a difference of 42 cents a gallon!
But is it really? Let's take a closer look.
2013 E350 One tank, if you could use all 21.1 gallons at highway fuel economy, would take you 630 miles for $70.24 in the gasser. 11.15 cents per mile
2006 E320 CDI One tank, if you could use all 21.1 gallons at highway fuel economy, would take you 780 miles for $79.10 in the diesel. 10.14 cents per mile
To drive the extra 150 miles that the diesel gets per tank in the gasser would cost an additional (150 x $ 0.1115 =) $16.72. Added to the $70.24 for the first 630 miles = $86.97 or $7.87 per tank more than the diesel for the same number of miles driven. That's throwing away $7.87 or losing 150 miles per tank if you drive a gasoline engine.
But is it really? Let's take a closer look.
2013 E350 One tank, if you could use all 21.1 gallons at highway fuel economy, would take you 630 miles for $70.24 in the gasser. 11.15 cents per mile
2006 E320 CDI One tank, if you could use all 21.1 gallons at highway fuel economy, would take you 780 miles for $79.10 in the diesel. 10.14 cents per mile
To drive the extra 150 miles that the diesel gets per tank in the gasser would cost an additional (150 x $ 0.1115 =) $16.72. Added to the $70.24 for the first 630 miles = $86.97 or $7.87 per tank more than the diesel for the same number of miles driven. That's throwing away $7.87 or losing 150 miles per tank if you drive a gasoline engine.
Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 118
Likes: 5
From: Ohio
2006 E320 CDI
Fiddlin' about
"Tommy, can you hear me?
Tommy, can you hear me?
Tommy, can you hear me?
How can he be saved?"
Based on this assinine attempt at a swipe at Mercedes Benz you have just lumped together with them the following incomplete but significant list of autos and their manufacturers (this forum needs a good asshat emoticon!)...
Acura, Aston Martin, Bentley, BMW, Bugatti, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Dodge, Ferrari, Ford, GMC, Honda, Infiniti, Jaguar, Jeep, Lamborghini, Lexus, Maserati, Maybach, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz , MINI, Mitsubishi, Pontiac, Porsche, Rolls-Royce, Saab, Saturn, Smart for Two, Toyota, Volkswagen, and Volvo.
Seems like the rest of the members in this thread are doing all the informing "while you fiddle about, fiddle about, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle..."
Tommy, can you hear me?
Tommy, can you hear me?
How can he be saved?"
Based on this assinine attempt at a swipe at Mercedes Benz you have just lumped together with them the following incomplete but significant list of autos and their manufacturers (this forum needs a good asshat emoticon!)...
Acura, Aston Martin, Bentley, BMW, Bugatti, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Dodge, Ferrari, Ford, GMC, Honda, Infiniti, Jaguar, Jeep, Lamborghini, Lexus, Maserati, Maybach, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz , MINI, Mitsubishi, Pontiac, Porsche, Rolls-Royce, Saab, Saturn, Smart for Two, Toyota, Volkswagen, and Volvo.
Seems like the rest of the members in this thread are doing all the informing "while you fiddle about, fiddle about, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle..."
Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 200
Likes: 10
2024 GLS450, Previously 2020 GLS450, 2017 GLS450, 2014 GL450, 2012 GL450
So I'm a little confused... I was hoping to get the Diesel model for better MPG = low ownership cost, but reading this seems like diesel comes with its own baggage?
GL450 ownership cost was only the oil change at every 10k mi, which is $150 in NJ.
GL350:
Oil Change=?
DEF replacement(how many miles?)=?
Anything else?
GL450 ownership cost was only the oil change at every 10k mi, which is $150 in NJ.
GL350:
Oil Change=?
DEF replacement(how many miles?)=?
Anything else?
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 297
Likes: 4
From: Bay Area CA
2014 GL 350 blue tec
So I'm a little confused... I was hoping to get the Diesel model for better MPG = low ownership cost, but reading this seems like diesel comes with its own baggage?
GL450 ownership cost was only the oil change at every 10k mi, which is $150 in NJ.
GL350:
Oil Change=?
DEF replacement(how many miles?)=?
Anything else?
GL450 ownership cost was only the oil change at every 10k mi, which is $150 in NJ.
GL350:
Oil Change=?
DEF replacement(how many miles?)=?
Anything else?
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Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 200
Likes: 10
2024 GLS450, Previously 2020 GLS450, 2017 GLS450, 2014 GL450, 2012 GL450
Oil change should be pretty much same, yes DEF is added cost but very 20k miles and $50 to $ 60 you do it yourself and buy DEF from auto stores, but add to 450 spark plugs and other ignition parts. I think it all depends on how long you keep your cars. Diesel gives better fuel economy and much better resale value.
Also, its surprising you say diesel has better resale value, but MB when calculating their lease gives GL350 a lower resale value compared to 450.
Last edited by Ah_gl450; Jan 21, 2014 at 12:55 PM.
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 761
Likes: 90
From: right to be forgotten
right to be forgotten
Just do you sums. 10K/annum is nothing. And the cost of adblue and a oil change is nothing compared to how much these cars cost. I'm surprised there is such penny (cents to you ) pinching in the margins compared to the overall cost.
) pinching in the margins compared to the overall cost.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 297
Likes: 4
From: Bay Area CA
2014 GL 350 blue tec
Also, its surprising you say diesel has better resale value, but MB when calculating their lease gives GL350 a lower resale value compared to 450.[/QUOTE]
Maybe because the msrp is lower than 450, but if you do resale value as percent of new, you will see 350 holds up better. 350s are harder to find compared to 450s. Go to cars .com to compare
Maybe because the msrp is lower than 450, but if you do resale value as percent of new, you will see 350 holds up better. 350s are harder to find compared to 450s. Go to cars .com to compare
Last edited by infamily; Jan 21, 2014 at 05:19 PM.
Member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
2010 911 Turbo Cabriolet, 2014 Mazda3
[QUOTE=Maybe because the msrp is lower than 450, but if you do resale value as percent of new, you will see 350 holds up better. 350s are harder to find compared to 450s. Go to cars .com to compare[/QUOTE]
Agreed. If you were to lease the same MY car for the same terms (mileage and length-wise) and ask for the residuals (which is always given as % of full MSRP) of both a gasser and its diesel equivalent, the diesel will always have a higher % as compared to the gasser.
As to how much it will depend on the specific model and terms.
When I leased my 2013 GLK250 back in last June, my residual (for 2-yr, 24K miles) was 72%, whereas the GLK350 had a 68% residual for the same terms.
However, diesel models in general don't get as good a money factor (in another words, interest rate) as their gas counterparts simply because the demand/supply ratio of diesel is higher. So your residual advantage and gas savings spread across the term may be diminished by that dependent on what the MF difference is (as opposed to the residual, dealers are free to mark up the MF on any particular vehicle) and how much you drive.
But of course all of that goes away when you feel the amount of torque the diesel engine in our car can put out from 1500rpm all the way up to redline.
Agreed. If you were to lease the same MY car for the same terms (mileage and length-wise) and ask for the residuals (which is always given as % of full MSRP) of both a gasser and its diesel equivalent, the diesel will always have a higher % as compared to the gasser.
As to how much it will depend on the specific model and terms.
When I leased my 2013 GLK250 back in last June, my residual (for 2-yr, 24K miles) was 72%, whereas the GLK350 had a 68% residual for the same terms.
However, diesel models in general don't get as good a money factor (in another words, interest rate) as their gas counterparts simply because the demand/supply ratio of diesel is higher. So your residual advantage and gas savings spread across the term may be diminished by that dependent on what the MF difference is (as opposed to the residual, dealers are free to mark up the MF on any particular vehicle) and how much you drive.
But of course all of that goes away when you feel the amount of torque the diesel engine in our car can put out from 1500rpm all the way up to redline.
Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 200
Likes: 10
2024 GLS450, Previously 2020 GLS450, 2017 GLS450, 2014 GL450, 2012 GL450
Right, I was talking about the %
GL350
Months: 36
RV: 63%
MF: .00225
GL450
Months: 36
RV: 64%
MF: .00225
So althought the $ of the GL350 is lower, if you price both cars with the same options, the difference is $1.00/mo in favor of the GL450. So I'm really counting on the MPG and TCO on the GL350 to win over the GL450. For 10k mi/yr, savings are about $50/mo with the current gas prices.
GL350
Months: 36
RV: 63%
MF: .00225
GL450
Months: 36
RV: 64%
MF: .00225
So althought the $ of the GL350 is lower, if you price both cars with the same options, the difference is $1.00/mo in favor of the GL450. So I'm really counting on the MPG and TCO on the GL350 to win over the GL450. For 10k mi/yr, savings are about $50/mo with the current gas prices.
Last edited by Ah_gl450; Jan 21, 2014 at 06:33 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,936
Likes: 349
From: Huntington NY
S560
Agreed. If you were to lease the same MY car for the same terms (mileage and length-wise) and ask for the residuals (which is always given as % of full MSRP) of both a gasser and its diesel equivalent, the diesel will always have a higher % as compared to the gasser.
As to how much it will depend on the specific model and terms.
When I leased my 2013 GLK250 back in last June, my residual (for 2-yr, 24K miles) was 72%, whereas the GLK350 had a 68% residual for the same terms.
However, diesel models in general don't get as good a money factor (in another words, interest rate) as their gas counterparts simply because the demand/supply ratio of diesel is higher. So your residual advantage and gas savings spread across the term may be diminished by that dependent on what the MF difference is (as opposed to the residual, dealers are free to mark up the MF on any particular vehicle) and how much you drive.
But of course all of that goes away when you feel the amount of torque the diesel engine in our car can put out from 1500rpm all the way up to redline.
As to how much it will depend on the specific model and terms.
When I leased my 2013 GLK250 back in last June, my residual (for 2-yr, 24K miles) was 72%, whereas the GLK350 had a 68% residual for the same terms.
However, diesel models in general don't get as good a money factor (in another words, interest rate) as their gas counterparts simply because the demand/supply ratio of diesel is higher. So your residual advantage and gas savings spread across the term may be diminished by that dependent on what the MF difference is (as opposed to the residual, dealers are free to mark up the MF on any particular vehicle) and how much you drive.
But of course all of that goes away when you feel the amount of torque the diesel engine in our car can put out from 1500rpm all the way up to redline.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 493
Likes: 14
84 300d 2009 e320 bluetec (retired)/, now 2012 E350 4-matic blueefficiency automatic
Jasonjeross says that fuel filters are $135 when done at the dealer. Who out there has had a fuel filter replaced? What did it cost?
And what are folks paying at the dealer for an oil change? I plan to DIY my oil changes (haven't put the first 10k miles on the car yet) unless there is some major PITA part about doing that but am curious about dealer prices.
And what are folks paying at the dealer for an oil change? I plan to DIY my oil changes (haven't put the first 10k miles on the car yet) unless there is some major PITA part about doing that but am curious about dealer prices.
BTW: Diesel fuel filter is about $30. The real cost is if the DPF clogs and some dealer will charge lots of $$ for the DEF Ad-Blue.
Last edited by dave2001auto; Jan 22, 2014 at 07:30 PM.
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 812
Likes: 86
From: Springboro, OH
16 GLC 19 Volvo XC40 06Corvette Z06
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
GL 450
Agreed. If you were to lease the same MY car for the same terms (mileage and length-wise) and ask for the residuals (which is always given as % of full MSRP) of both a gasser and its diesel equivalent, the diesel will always have a higher % as compared to the gasser.
As to how much it will depend on the specific model and terms.
When I leased my 2013 GLK250 back in last June, my residual (for 2-yr, 24K miles) was 72%, whereas the GLK350 had a 68% residual for the same terms.
However, diesel models in general don't get as good a money factor (in another words, interest rate) as their gas counterparts simply because the demand/supply ratio of diesel is higher. So your residual advantage and gas savings spread across the term may be diminished by that dependent on what the MF difference is (as opposed to the residual, dealers are free to mark up the MF on any particular vehicle) and how much you drive.
But of course all of that goes away when you feel the amount of torque the diesel engine in our car can put out from 1500rpm all the way up to redline.
As to how much it will depend on the specific model and terms.
When I leased my 2013 GLK250 back in last June, my residual (for 2-yr, 24K miles) was 72%, whereas the GLK350 had a 68% residual for the same terms.
However, diesel models in general don't get as good a money factor (in another words, interest rate) as their gas counterparts simply because the demand/supply ratio of diesel is higher. So your residual advantage and gas savings spread across the term may be diminished by that dependent on what the MF difference is (as opposed to the residual, dealers are free to mark up the MF on any particular vehicle) and how much you drive.
But of course all of that goes away when you feel the amount of torque the diesel engine in our car can put out from 1500rpm all the way up to redline.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
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From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...reen/index.htm
let’s extrapolate the AdBlue budget. At the current rate and cost of consumption, just the AdBlue itself (without the labor, which would probably be included as part of the routine service) would cost $1,457.80 for 100,000 miles of driving. That’s a lot of money, knocking about a third off of your fuel savings vs. buying a GL450 V8.
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 506
Likes: 54
GL350 Bluetec and GLS580
I'm basing it on the miles stated in the case study.
Oil leaks= Oil Cooler or the little rubber gaskets around the Turbo that are $20. Or are there more oil leaks in other places on the Bluetec?
Timing Chains are an issue on both gasser and Bluetec right? Interesting enough, a friend dropped by last night for a few hours in a TDI Q7. I swear I heard the timing chain noise (never heard it before on my w164 nor x166) when he started up the engine to leave.
AdBlue = DEF = http://www.autozone.com/miscellaneou...uid/248484_0_0 . $150 cost per 100k miles.
Oil leaks= Oil Cooler or the little rubber gaskets around the Turbo that are $20. Or are there more oil leaks in other places on the Bluetec?
Timing Chains are an issue on both gasser and Bluetec right? Interesting enough, a friend dropped by last night for a few hours in a TDI Q7. I swear I heard the timing chain noise (never heard it before on my w164 nor x166) when he started up the engine to leave.
AdBlue = DEF = http://www.autozone.com/miscellaneou...uid/248484_0_0 . $150 cost per 100k miles.
Maybe, if the miles driven were high enough. Add in a timing chain or two, engine failure from severe oil leaks and bad oil level sensors....
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...reen/index.htm
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...reen/index.htm
Last edited by DC-BENZ; Sep 27, 2017 at 07:27 AM.
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From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
No, the timing chain issues are on the diesel. Many are replaced at very short intervals and replaced again. The engines must not be pressurizing the tensioners fast enough so the chains are stretching and clattering. The oil level sensors fail to give low oil warning from a leaking oil cooler and the engines grenade from lack of oil. Spend some time on the 164 forum and you will see.
Super Member
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 506
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GL350 Bluetec and GLS580
Gasser Timing chain issues -
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...aqiQ33kGQXKPMw
Is this work cheaper ($) than the issues on the Bluetec?
I have a w164 and was on the forums prior to arriving here. I paid the dealer $2k to replace my oil cooler and seals. But the leak your talking about is the same as I mentioned, not anything additional.
Also, I agree, I didn't know mine was leaking until a huge amount of oil spilled onto my carpool's clean, high angled, concrete, driveway (every day I pick them up I worry about my x166 doing the same thing).
Why the dealer didn't notice the leak during the oil changes astonishes me. Checking your oil once a week or so like the old days could help. I'm doing the 5k oil changes on my x166. I own a sports car and we (forums) ruled out the 10k oil changes long ago.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...aqiQ33kGQXKPMw
Is this work cheaper ($) than the issues on the Bluetec?
I have a w164 and was on the forums prior to arriving here. I paid the dealer $2k to replace my oil cooler and seals. But the leak your talking about is the same as I mentioned, not anything additional.
Also, I agree, I didn't know mine was leaking until a huge amount of oil spilled onto my carpool's clean, high angled, concrete, driveway (every day I pick them up I worry about my x166 doing the same thing).
Why the dealer didn't notice the leak during the oil changes astonishes me. Checking your oil once a week or so like the old days could help. I'm doing the 5k oil changes on my x166. I own a sports car and we (forums) ruled out the 10k oil changes long ago.
No, the timing chain issues are on the diesel. Many are replaced at very short intervals and replaced again. The engines must not be pressurizing the tensioners fast enough so the chains are stretching and clattering. The oil level sensors fail to give low oil warning from a leaking oil cooler and the engines grenade from lack of oil. Spend some time on the 164 forum and you will see.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
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From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
Show some examples. That's a general bulletin that is good for any vehicle with a timing chain. Not saying they don't exist but I have been a GL owner for 10 years and have been on the form for longer than that but do not remember reading any post where this was happening on a GL450. All I read about are diesel engine issues. Not saying gassers don't have issues but the MB diesel in the GL is plagued with issues - expensive issues that negate any fuel savings.
