DanD.

I've tried to search for this problem in Europe forums in multiple languages, found a few old posts but nothing massive, i know they have more diesels cars. Wondering in what part of the world this problem is more common?

karmikan

Already have, please check the videos posted earlier. I posted 4 videos to (hopefully) demonstrate that this issue is not simply an "opinion" but is based on fairly solid scientific evidence. There are 3 different perspectives/approaches with 1 conclusion. Good enough for me without solid evidence to the contrary.

karmikan

I guess there are many possibilities but one I can think of is average miles driven. The average miles driven per year in the US is 14,300, in the EU and the UK the average is 7,400. That's quite a difference and potentially means Europe "should" be several years behind North America in mileage-sensitive problems.

Pure speculation of course but an interesting tidbit all the same.

mikapen

Thanks. That's a reasonable conclusion.

It's thought provoking, and I was looking for some research papers and credentials. I prefer reading tech stuff instead of YT.

Anyway there's no reason not to use SP oil.

karmikan

LOL. How about the guys at the API (without a YT connection I assume)
"The standards also include a test designed to protect against a phenomenon experienced by some gasoline engines known low speed pre-ignition (LSPI).

"https://www.api.org/products-and-ser...oil-categories

Or maybe the PQIA:
"To this point, however, it is important to consider that low-speed preignition (LSPI) was a primary issue that drove the somewhat urgent need for API SN PLUS prior to reaching consensus on the parameters for API SP".

https://pqia.org/2020/10/21/the-new-...store-shelves/

Unfortunately, I don't have any publications from the actual scientists involved.

EDIT
Just found another PQIA paper:
"The SN PLUS Service Category was introduced as a supplement to API SN specification in 2018 to mitigate low speed pre-ignition (LSPI) events in Turbocharged Gasoline Direct Injection (TGDI) engines. Such LSPI events can cause engine knocking, decreased efficiency, and in the worst case, catastrophic failure due to cracked pistons."

W205C43PFL

Thanks for the videos and explanation on this topic.

tbirdvet

Looking at the latest oil grades manufactures are using in 2023 seems to go with 0w20 API-SP and GF-6. Castrol Edge Extended Performance 0W20 meets the MB standard of 229.71. The 0W20 has new additives that supports higher engine temps that normally would require 30-40W oil.

mikapen

Very helpful. Thanks.
I wonder why the papers (I'll dig deeper now that I have your references) talk only about Direct Injection.
I know that Direct Injection presents additional problems, and I was surprised that then new engines Mercedes is introducing aren't relying on the combo - direct injection PLUS port injection. It seems they have another solution. I'd assume they had knowledge of the LSPI issue and hoped they designed around it.

Ferrari's F1 engine used oil consumption as a source of (illegal?) BTU's that gave them immense power in 2018, but it didn't cause reliability issues, so those droplets must be controllable.
But the M274 4 cyl had piston problems in 2015-2018, it seems that they fixed it with the new generation, but I don't think oil was the reason they emerged on the other side (hopefully).

I don't know any practicing engine engineers any more, so I can't pick their brains.
Interesting topic.
I don't know if I should worry about my 3 liter six.
Thanks for the heads up.

karmikan

That sounds plausible. I wouldn't discount the possibility that the PR-Marketing guys got into the act so that MB wouldn't be left behind in the industry-wide stampede to 2L, Turbo, DI engines. No knowledge on my part, just speculating.

Highly limited service life per engine? Or maybe because LSPI seems prevalent in the 1500-2K rev range. The technology necessary for sustained 15K revs is on a different planet and beyond my ability to fully grasp. I believe that each team has its own oil formulations based on the characteristics of each engine and they change formulations for each track and according to the prevalent weather conditions. Huh??

DanD.

Here are two more analysis for another cars I have, both oils API SP
Yes calcium level is lover and magnesium is much higher.

This one is Jeep Grand Cherokee
Oil Pennzoil Platinum 0w20


This one is Nissan Murano, oil Castrol Titanium 0w20

W205C43PFL

It is affecting North American vehicles only (from what I heard), European market, Asia etc. are not affected for example.

mikapen

Ethanol?

DanD.

Ethanol makes it colder, which is better
And I expect MB knows US uses up to 10% so they should do something about.

Lagtime

It's likely that most of the vehicles sold in Europe and Asia are diesels.

crconsulting

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...es-by-country/

Roughly closer to 50%,
So still one would expect to see failures surfacing over there too…..

Lex300

This turned into an LSPI thread and as a new 2022 GLC 300 owner I found it very helpful. Thanks to everyone that contributed. The YouTube videos were huge in seeing what LSPI is all about.

I did some research of my own and was looking for an oil that met four criteria.
1)MB standard 229.51 and 229.52
2)Low SAPS
3)API SP
4)Low Calcium

1) Regarding MB standards, it seems to me that the 229.5 standard is good for older models. For anyone reading in the future, the newer models like 2019/2020 and up, with the M264 engine, standard changed to 229.51 and 229.52 which if I remember correctly means two things. They made it Low SAPS in order to get lower emissions.

Problem is that there are a lot of MB compliant oils available, but less so that are SP and tested for LSPI. Even harder when you try to look for 229.51 and 229.52 there’s very few of those. Even Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30, which I’ve seen a lot of people recommend on the forum here, is only SN. I went with Valvoline European Vehicle Full Synthetic XL-III SAE 5W-30 which is both SP and 229.51 / 229.52 available from Amazon in US.

I would have liked to get a low calcium oil, but I can’t confirm how much calcium this Valvoline type has. I plan on running a Blackstone test for the next oil change. As we’ve learned, calcium is a contributing factor to LSPI.

So basically MB created a stricter standard from 229.5 to .51 and .52. It’s surprising and discouraging that instead of Mercedes improving the standard to one that’s geared for avoiding LSPI, they chose to focus on one for emissions. Shows where their priorities are.

kjb55

Long time Benz owner (w203, 204, 211, 212, 164, 123, 210) and always refer to the website https://operatingfluids.mercedes-benz.com for help. Looking to buy a 2019 GLC300 and came to this forum for research. Having dealt with the M272 balance shaft issue - last thing I want to do is deal with piston problems. 229.5; .51 and .52 are listed for M274 in the attached and Mobil 1 FS 5W-40 is SN, SN+ and SP rated. Hope this helps with the research above.

edpare

I also live in the same states. Would you share your research into fuel sources? I have a 2020 GLC300 which is alarmingly close to the age of the cars with broken pistons. I did a VIN datacard which revealed I have the newer 264 engine which I read elsewhere had different pistons and less agressive boost curve.

Westlawn1968%%

I purchased a 2017 C300 class Mercedes-Benz ("MB") in May 2021 from a used car dealship in Mobile, AL. At that time it had 36,000 miles. Less than 2 years later, on or about 12/15/22, as I was driving, the MB suddenly and without warning began to vibrate violently and immediately lost power. The car had @54,000 miles on it. I routinely drive interstate to and from work and had just gotten off of the interstate. I was lucky that I was driving at a low speed when this happened; otherwise, a serious accident could have resulted. The local MB dealership told me that the car failed a compression test in the #1 cylinder and that the engine would have to be replaced at $20,000. Of course, this was beyond warranty, washing its hands over its defective product, refused to act responsibly and replace the engine. Subsequent research on the cause of this total engine failure with low mileage relvealed that this engine has a chronic piston defect that damages the #1 cylinder, causing it to lose compression, and that MB has known about the defect for many years prior. MB has not alerted the public nor instigated a recall. In my pre-purchase research, i found no information from MB that the C300 class engine (M274) had a chronic piston defect that would damage the #1 cylinder which would, in turn, cause the the engine to lose power and the vehicle to vibrate and shake, creating a dangerous diving condition under all circumstances, but especially if the car was being driven at speed on a federal interstate highway. Despite demands by me and others, MB refuses to responsibly address the issue. MB prefers to allow this condition to exist so that the defective engine will get beyond its warranty obligations. In my opinion this is outrageous conduct by MB. The driving public is clearly in great risk of harm due to this defective engine and associated power train problems and MB is putting its profits over consumer safety and doing the right thing by this defective engine. It is patently unreasonable for MB to produce and market such a unsafe, dangerous and defective product that poses an unreasonable risk of harm to its customer and others, not to mention significant economic loss to its customers. I am putting together a portfolio of aggrieved MB customers to pursue a class action similar to the one currently pending in California. If interested to participate, please respond to this post and I'll make arrangments for contact.

mikapen

@Westlawn1968%% this is the fourth time you've pasted this here and there on the Site.

​​​​​​Is it a true story, or are you a lawyer trying to recruit for your lawsuit?

karmikan

Glad I'm not the only one who's a bit suspicious.

butane

There's a reputable benz repair shop that says they can tune the ECU to reduce the chances of cracked piston. I wonder if anyone has tried this before?

crconsulting

I would think that could be a potentially profitable market.

crconsulting

So a bit of a necro-bump but, looking at Mobil1 FS 5W-40 SP, nowhere does it mention API SP rating 😕
Has anyone actually seen or purchased API SP rated Mobil1 oil? Interesting that it is in the “specs” attached by kjb55. Perhaps oil hasn’t made its way in circulation or an oversight?

nitinduggal

how to get registered?