3.5L

So what's all this hoopla I'm getting about the dangers of E15 gasoline and that it will void your warranty if you use it in your car? I've received two emails from friends in the past two days regarding this "issue."

3.5L

venchka

Apparently. Unconfirmed by me. The Wonder Wizards at the EPA are fomenting plans to boost Ethanol content from 10% to 15%. Hopefully this debacle will follow the departing, and possibly-maybe soon to be discredited, EPA chief into oblivion.

Even the devout Tree Huggers have renounced Ethanol. Go figure.

Wayne

3.5L

If it turns out that E15 will screw up our cars, this is a parallel story to the 1952 airplane you see listed in my signature. The engine in that airplane was designed to run on 80/87 leaded aviation gasoline. 80/87 is difficult, if not impossible to find anymore. 100LL (low lead) is available at all airports that pump gasoline. LL is a misnomer in that it has 4 times the amount of lead found in the old 80/87 blend. So what's the big deal? Well, the extra lead in 100LL can cause sticking valves in engines designed for 80/87. It's a real problem, and a potentially serious problem. My alternative is to burn auto gas - 87 no lead. On the plus side, my engine (and some others) have been certified to legally and safely use 87 auto gas, but with NO alcohol. Some airports pump auto gas. Otherwise, you have to transport the gasoline to your airplane yourself. It's a PITA and must done with care.

3.5L

venchka

I love it when the Gummermint dictates what really can't nor should be done.

Wayne

GLKKa2H

No doubt it will void warranty, following two statements in the "Fuel requirements" chapter of the manual:

venchka

During this lively discussion, has anyone determined if the EPA knows, or cares, what the consequences are?

Wayne

bop11

Yes, the consequence is that your car will be rendered useless, just like many boats from the '80's because the ethanol dissolved the fiberglass tanks in them (not saying there is fiberglass tanks in cars) but other problems internal to the engine and systems. Plus voiding your warranty. This means that you will need to replace it sooner with more 'efficient' vehicles that require components being created by "friends" of the congressmen(women) so that their non-taxed wealth will increase. I see they just raised their pay.
Increased use of ethanol will help raise the cost of the feed crops, and divert their use from food making food pricing go up.
So, you see this is a very wide front where there is the opportunity to create untold wealth by adding only 5% to your gas.
I wonder if the availability of CNG and its easy adaptation to current auto engines will make congresspeople try to curtail its development? duh!

venchka

Preaching to choir I'm afraid. The Loony Tunes never ever let facts interfere with their story. Meanwhile, I did a GOOGLE search earlier today. I only looked at the headers in the search. This load of manure (downstream by-product of ethanol feed stock) apparently started back in 2010. Before the recent draughts. Just looking at the search results made my head hurt.
When, if ever, were presently available and soon to be more readily available hydrocarbon based fuels affected by draught?

I should be quiet. Consume more "headache remedy" from the red wax sealed container.

Wayne

GLKKa2H

Not that I know of. Note this sweet "sticker", seen on a paper from EPA:


http://epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/e15/e15-mmp.htm,

a contradiction to a picture (and quoted text from a "study by a Coordinating Research Council") on autobloggreen: http://green.autoblog.com/2012/05/18...m-against-e15/

3.5L

Right on! My first project after retiring a year ago was to finish converting our old dark room to wine cellar. It turned out great, if do say so myself, and the best part is that it's only about 12 feet from my office. Stores up to 100 bottles (not that there's much chance of any getting very old).

3.5L

venchka

Aye!

"Damn the facts. Damn the consumer. Full speed ahead." Until the valves crater.

For the time being, there are but a handful of retailers in the Corn Belt dispensing the stuff. Naturally, the anti-E15 voice of the American Automobile Association is being shouted down by the Renewable Fuel Folks. It would be funny if it were not so tragic and dangerous.

Wayne

3.5L

I'm not necessarily opposed to new fuels, if they're cleaner and more efficient. However, the "old" fuels should be made available to consumers who own vehicles that can't handle the new stuff. I mean right now, most pumps offer 3 grades of gas plus diesel. So, put in the E15 if they must, but keep the existing grades available, right along side.

Back to my old bird, I'm pretty well screwed. Aircraft are certified with a certain engine right from the get-to. You can't legally remove the old one and bolt in a "modern" engine, not to mention that "modern" versions still rely on 100LL aviation gasoline; something that certain groups are trying to ban all together as we speak. Then what. Well, nearly all existing piston aircraft engines turn into a pumpkin. So, if you want to continue to fly your bird you have to jump through the STC (supplemental type certificate) proce$$ to get a new engine that will burn whatever crapola fuel is currently being produced.

WABOS

3.5L

GLKKa2H

The challenge is that not all "no-E15-engine-owners" may be aware of or pay attention to fuel requirements (how many of us read the manual to the bottom/end),
or in the daily stress pay attention to a non enforced sticker with the note E15 on a pump ,
or care or have time to drive to another one if only E15 gas is available at the filling station.

3.5L

You're saying it's legal for a gas station to pump E15 without any notice or sticker on the pump?

3.5L

venchka

No. See the E15 sticker photos above.

Definition Catch-22: The Government studies E15. The Government proclaims E15 safe for FlexFuel vehicles built after 2001. The Government issues a waiver to the Clean Air Act allowing retail sale of E15.
Who is checking on the Government? Nobody. Why? The Government won't listen to outside testing.

What the Government says:
Read this...

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...mage-your-car/

And this...

Tree Huggers: Open your mind. Clear your preconcieved misconceptions. Do your homework. Converting perfectly good food based calories into inefficient, expensive, wasteful internal combustion engine calories is a Special Kind Of Stupid thing to do. Look at the BTUs in versus BTUs out for turning corn into ethanol. Agri-Business is sticking it to the masses.


Wayne

3.5L

So I take it that the gas pumps will be clearly labeled and it will be entirely the drivers responsibility as to what they are pumping into the gas tank. Do I have the concept correct?

3.5L

Koenig1

If only people knew what Ethanol does, other than being 'GREEN'! Anyone in the snowmobile/outboard/ toy business will tell you that Ethanol is an engine killer. The problem with ethanol is that it absorbs H2O rapidly..... Meaning that after a month or so that gas you bought for your snowmobile has a good chance of seizing your engine! Let alone, that gas station out in the 'boonies' that only fills its' underground tanks up every 2 months has probably got more water than gas! Not to mention freeze-ups in the gas line overnight, or the octane level being far below the pump stated number. Yes, the 2-stroke people are pissed, and tired of getting shafted. Maybe the E15 will take it over the top and screw the automobile owners.... you know that won't last long! Here's another off-shoot to ethanol... anybody leave gas in their lawnmower, trimmer small engine for any length of time? Results are any rubber, hosing(fuel line) or otherwise, tends to dissolve into a mushy/gooey substance that will plug up carbs, filters, any small orifice.... and it doesn't remove easy! My .02

3.5L

As a long-time RC (radio control) modeler, I'm well aware that alcohol absorbs water. I typically use fuels in various model airplane and helicopter engines that contain 10% to 30% nitromethane, 18% oil (synthetic, caster or combo) and the rest is alcohol. Because the alcohol content will absorb water, I keep all containers and fuel tanks sealed when not in use. When I first got involved with the hobby, I ruined quite a few gallons of that expensive fuel before I learned about the water problem. I wasn't alone. We learned.

Typically, aren't the fuel systems in automobiles sealed, except when the gas cap is removed for fueling? But what about the fuel stored in the ground at a gas station? Drivers have no control over how the fuel is handled or stored.

But getting back to fuel choice, doesn't it boil down to what button the driver pushes on the pump? They will have to pay attention - or pay the price...

3.5L

venchka

In Texas, Houston to be exact, in my little corner on the NW side, there are exactly TWO E85 pumps that I know of in a 5-10 mile radius around my office & apartment. Completely separate single pumps. Painted green & yellow. LARGE "E85" markings. Often non-functioning. I have not seen any other E85 pumps in East Texas. The chances of mistakenly pumping E85 are slim and none. I doubt that E15 will show up any time soon.
If you look up a listing of locations offering E85, most are on government property. That's the only place where a 15% price reduction masks a 30% consumption increase.
There is a web page that lists ethanol free gasoline outlets by state. GOOGLE knows where it is.

Wayne

GLKKa2H

A statement from a poster (US resident) in one of the threads, indicated that this was state dependant. I couldn't verify that thru todays "googling", however ended up with a note E15 Status Update from The Assosiation for Convenience & Fuel Retailing (NACS). Section Remaining Obstacles, Pump Labeling: "Gasoline pumps dispensing E15 must be labeled with the following warning label:" - the one issued by EPA. Instructions on how to place the label is given:
"The label must be placed on the upper two-thirds of each fuel dispenser where the consumer will see the label when selecting a fuel to purchase. For dispensers with one nozzle, the label must be placed above the button or other control used for selecting E15, or in any other manner which clearly indicates which control is used to select E15. For dispensers with multiple nozzles, the label shall be placed in the location that is most likely to be seen by the consumer at the time he or she selects E15."

Reference to the paper: http://www.nacsonline.com/NACS/Resources/Documents/E15ComplianceMemo.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.5L

So I take it that the gas pumps will be clearly labeled and it will be entirely the drivers responsibility as to what they are pumping into the gas tank. Do I have the concept correct?

Then the question is, when "An overwhelming 95 percent of consumers surveyed have not heard of E15, a newly approved gasoline blend that contains up to 15 percent ethanol.", according to an AAA research, and the E15 Label reads: "Use only in - 2001 and newer passenger vehicles" - how many of the consumers will assosiate this to the requirements of their car?

The survey: http://newsroom.aaa.com/2012/11/new-...mer-confusion/.

Wish you a Happy New Year.

venchka

Sample pump labels from the Fox News story in my link above.



To answer your question, the label tells you what you get from that spigot. It doesn't tell you if your vehicle will safely use what comes from the spigot. The Gummermint is not providing all of the information needed by the consumer to make an informed purchasing decision.
Meanwhile, blow dryers come with a warning lablel not to use the appliance in the tub or shower. M-B won't even tell us where the battery is located in our GLKs. Go figure.

For ethanol free gasoline, go North!
For a list by states, go here...

http://pure-gas.org/

Wayne

3.5L

It will be interesting to see how this E15 thing plays out. On the one hand, it would be nice if the auto manufacturers mailed information to each owner stating whether or not their car can use it. On the other hand, I know a few folks that wouldn't know what to do even if the allowable fuel types and grades were on a sticker on the backside of their fuel cap cover. The car is a complete mystery to them except turn the key and go. With more and more modern gizmos being added every year, such as ABS, DSC, etc., etc., drivers are hardly in touch with the road anymore.

3.5L

venchka

Folks care more about doo-dads, gizmos, LEDs, toys, paddles, Bluetooth, Video in Motion, etc., etc., etc.

I see a lot of cars/trucks/SUVs on the road with FLEXFUEL labels on the rear. I never see anyone buying E85. It only takes one tankfull to drive home the economic reality.

Wayne

3.5L

I retired a year ago after 23 years in sales & service consumer electronics, followed by 21 years as an electronics technician at a university. I have some firsthand experience dealing with a wide variety of equipment users with a wide range of skills. On campus we had people who, while brilliant in their discipline, couldn't figure out how to switch on a projector. Others (usually the younger set), ate up technology as fast as we could hand it to them (I appreciated them).

Meanwhile, across the nation, there are folks who couldn't pour **** out of a boot if it had a faucet on the toe and directions on the heel. Sad, but true.

These are the folks who screw up their cars (or whatever) and then sue the dealer and manufacturer and anyone else they can think of, because their product malfunctioned. Never mind that they misused it, abused it, or didn't read the manual...

3.5L