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I think the industry is confused over the term "crossover" as well. It used to refer to the segment of vehicles that were essentially cars with a little more ground clearance and typically an AWD system of some sort. Put a GLE/GLS next to a Mazda CX-5 and see what the average person call the GLE/GLS vs the CX-5. You could probably do the same with a GLE and GLE Coupe and get the same results. No the GLE/GLS/X5/X7 are not BOF vehicles but I doubt anyone would call them "crossovers" either. I will give you that unibody vs BOF is a more firm definition but it's also not something the average person understands. They will understand the difference between a slightly lifted car and a full size SUV.
Just look at the vehicle class in the Wikipedia page, defines them as crossovers. Basically anything thats on a unibody frame is considered by the industry in the US to be a crossover:
The point is there is a distinction between a unibody vehicle and a BOF truck, and the BOF truck is more robust and more utility focused while the unibody vehicle is less robust and more passenger and comfort focused. I tend to also call them all SUVs, but there is a clear utility distinction between a BOF truck and a unibody vehicle.
Its like saying an S Class and a Corolla aren't both sedans because they are much different sizes and one is much more robust than the other.
Originally Posted by MB2timer
Sathinas, you agree with this? I don’t. I don’t want to be included in this version of every single person. I think Mikapen has made some very valid points about towing, at a much greater depth than I have ever drilled down into. My towing is limited to a 2,000 lb load with about a 100lb tongue weight. I for one was enlightened by some of the information Mikapen was willing to share, regarding towing.
Do you believe that in general a unibody crossover is a better towing vehicle than a BOF truck? The issue is the blanket statement of such, and the insistence that somehow he can credibly use a different definition as to what is a crossover than the industry as a whole.
Just look at the vehicle class in the Wikipedia page, defines them as crossovers. Basically anything thats on a unibody frame is considered by the industry in the US to be a crossover:
The point is there is a distinction between a unibody vehicle and a BOF truck, and the BOF truck is more robust and more utility focused while the unibody vehicle is less robust and more passenger and comfort focused. I tend to also call them all SUVs, but there is a clear utility distinction between a BOF truck and a unibody vehicle.
Its like saying an S Class and a Corolla aren't both sedans because they are much different sizes and one is much more robust than the other.
Do you believe that in general a unibody crossover is a better towing vehicle than a BOF truck? The issue is the blanket statement of such, and the insistence that somehow he can credibly use a different definition as to what is a crossover than the industry as a whole.
I don’t use Wikipedia, at all. They are very unreliable and biased in certain areas. That’s enough for me to look for other references.
I would distill Mikapen’s posts down to this, he has tried a number of different tow vehicles, on a number of different loads. He has personally researched, and asked for opinions of experienced people and groups. After all that due consideration, he came to what was his preference for the best tow vehicle, and he recommends that. He also provided information to consider for the OP and any other interested party. That is a perfect scenario for an uninformed interested party, to make an informed decision.
I really don’t see why that all needs to be pulled apart.
I don’t use Wikipedia, at all. They are very unreliable and biased in certain areas. That’s enough for me to look for other references.
I would distill Mikapen’s posts down to this, he has tried a number of different tow vehicles, on a number of different loads. He has personally researched, and asked for opinions of experienced people and groups. After all that due consideration, he came to what was his preference for the best tow vehicle, and he recommends that. He also provided information to consider for the OP and any other interested party. That is a perfect scenario for an uninformed interested party, to make an informed decision.
I really don’t see why that all needs to be pulled apart.
Its all sourced, and it jibes with what I have seen from the industry in my decades of following it.
The issue is the statement of absolutes. The statement "a GLE is a better tow vehicle than a BOF Ram Truck" is just not an accurate statement, as has been brought up by every other poster with experience not only by me. He also has posted many things that are just flat out false, like saying that pickup trucks have WW1 suspensions, or that anything without multi-link suspension is from WW1 when the GLE and GLS do not have multi-link front suspension, he said only Rams have fully boxed frames and thats not true, ALL 1/2 ton trucks have fully boxed frames. He said a crossover is defined as RWD vs FWD and thats just not true.
The rest of us have also personally researched this, experienced this and asked opinions of educated people and groups and we have all come to the opposite conclusion. Like I said before, just go to a boat ramp or an RV park or a horse event and see what people are towing with.
Its all sourced, and it jibes with what I have seen from the industry in my decades of following it.
The issue is the statement of absolutes. The statement "a GLE is a better tow vehicle than a BOF Ram Truck" is just not an accurate statement, as has been brought up by every other poster with experience not only by me. He also has posted many things that are just flat out false, like saying that pickup trucks have WW1 suspensions, or that anything without multi-link suspension is from WW1 when the GLE and GLS do not have multi-link front suspension, he said only Rams have fully boxed frames and thats not true, ALL 1/2 ton trucks have fully boxed frames. He said a crossover is defined as RWD vs FWD and thats just not true.
The rest of us have also personally researched this, experienced this and asked opinions of educated people and groups and we have all come to the opposite conclusion. Like I said before, just go to a boat ramp or an RV park or a horse event and see what people are towing with.
Slightly different question as "better" can be ambiguous. For the average person that tows something < 7700 lbs a small percentage of the time and carts around children and people the rest of the time, would you choose a BOF pickup/SUV or a comparable unibody crossover/SUV?
@SW20S that's not what I posted.
Your habit of misquoting me and then arguing with yourself is .... mysterious.
Yeah you did. I don't misquote you, you try and pretend you didn't say what you did say when confronted with that being incorrect.
Originally Posted by mikapen
The 450 is a much better tow vehicle than a 1500 pickup.
Pickups have WW1 suspensions - the 450 has a modern suspension. 450 brakes are significantly more powerful. Pickups have flexi-chassis and their hitch deflection is much higher.
That was post #2 on Jun 29, 2025 | 02:03 PM 29
Then there was this quote:
Originally Posted by mikapen
I stand by my statements. Ram would be my first (only) choice for a pickup because of its coil springs, high strength steel boxed frame and independent front suspension. But the chassis rigidity is poor compared to a true, finite-element-designed unibody.
That was post #12 on Jun 30, 2025 | 11:18 PM
All 1/2 ton pickups have independent front suspension and full steel boxed frames and the torsional rigidity of the frame is considerably more than a unibody vehicle.
From that same post:
Originally Posted by mikapen
An enclosed body-on-frame (Suburban, van, etc) is a noticeably better tow vehicle than an open-bodied pickup, because it reduces chassis flex, but not as much as a real unibody.
This is also false. In a BOF vehicle the body is just bolted to the frame, it isnt structural. You will note that full sized BOF SUVs have lower tow ratings than comparable 1/2 ton trucks, not higher. Yukon/Suburban max out at 8,400 lbs, a 1/2 ton Silverado can tow up to 13,000 lbs.
Next post:
Originally Posted by mikapen
Unless they have multi-link suspensions, they are primitive. They don't, and they are. Just poor handling and traction.
That was post #21 on Jul 2, 2025 | 01:00 AM
The GLE and GLS do not have multi-link front suspension, they are double wishbone. Same as a modern pickup.
Originally Posted by jkaetz
Slightly different question as "better" can be ambiguous. For the average person that tows something < 7700 lbs a small percentage of the time and carts around children and people the rest of the time, would you choose a BOF pickup/SUV or a comparable unibody crossover/SUV?
I would choose a BOF Yukon etc if I was towing 7,700 lbs. Too close to the max rating of the GLS for me. If I was rarely towing a max of 5-6k lbs I would consider something like the GLS. That doesn't mean a GLS is a better tow vehicle than a Ram pickup though, it just means for my needs the SUV is the better overall vehicle.
Sathinas, you agree with this? I don’t. I don’t want to be included in this version of every single person. I think Mikapen has made some very valid points about towing, at a much greater depth than I have ever drilled down into. My towing is limited to a 2,000 lb load with about a 100lb tongue weight. I for one was enlightened by some of the information Mikapen was willing to share, regarding towing.
Should get some coffee for this:
Well sir... it's a touchy subject, apparently.
I have both SUVs and pick-up trucks. When towing something that's less than 50-60% of the vehicle's max tow rating, I'll use an SUV. In my case, that's up to say 5,000 lbs. Not because it's the best at towing, but because I like the SUV for longer drives. However, when towing close to max towing capacity, I prefer a pick-up truck. I've had F450s, F-350s(DRW and SRW), but now I'm down to a Defender, an F150 Tremor and a dedicated towing rig.
Case and point, the Defender is good for 8,200 lbs.
I've pulled 7,500 lbs with my Defender and while it didn't have a difficult time getting up to speed in a reasonable fashion, (it's the V8 version), the towed weight did make itself present in the body of the vehicle. It took a bit more paying attention to. It's not as rock steady as one would think. Was it dangerous or scary? No. But the weight did make itself more noticeable. The Defender comes with the independent air ride suspension under it.
The F150 Tremor is good for 10,900 lbs.
Now, the most I (may or may not) have pulled with my F-150 is around 12,000 lbs. Only 30 miles, two lane road. Night time, no traffic. Was it smart? Eh... It wasn't 5,000 extra lbs. But we're dumb around here, sometimes. Would I have pulled that weight across the country with that truck? Yes and No. Yes because I know it would have mo issues doing do, and no, because if I were to be involved in an accident (at fault or no), a good attorney would instantly jump on having been "overloaded".
The F150, rated for 10,900 lbs had no issues dealing with the additional weight. It didn't translate into any weird body movements, or actions. It just felt more stable, period. I suspect it's because of the longer wheelbase and suspension design. Again, solid axle over independent suspension.
For heavier towing I use an International HV506 good for 55K lbs, but only because an F-550 / 5500 (typically known as a ton and a half or Class 5) would be bumping the GCWR when towing the heavier stuff. I prefer a bit of capability breathing room when towing. Could have gotten an F650 or F750, but FORD doesn't make that chassis with a proper 4x4 configuration.
The heaviest thing I tow weighs ~18,5xx lbs. Call it 19K with the extra crap in it. Put that onto a 12,000 lb trailer and you're at 31K lbs worth of a load. Add the power unit, and the total GCVW gets to around 45K lbs... plus crap in the cab. All that weight acts against you going both uphill and downhill, and a Class 5 wouldn't last long with those weight numbers.
At the end of the day, though... If @mikapen thinks an SUV is better for his towing needs, I'm not going to keep arguing with the gentleman. He believes SUVs are better than pick-up trucks for towing, and I think the opposite. No point in getting into a pi$sing match. As long as his towing rig is not overloaded and he's being safe about it, I'm not out to change his mind.
As far as the uni-body / crossover argument...
I believe all crossovers are unibody, but not all uni-body SUVs are crossovers. For example, new(er) Land Lover products are unibody, but they're not crossovers, since the D7x platform is not some platform repurposed from a car, but rather built from the ground up to be an SUV platform. Yet it's still a unibody design.
I'm in general agreement with @SW20S, when he says
The point is there is a distinction between a unibody vehicle and a BOF truck, and the BOF truck is more robust and more utility focused while the unibody vehicle is less robust and more passenger and comfort focused. I tend to also call them all SUVs, but there is a clear utility distinction between a BOF truck and a unibody vehicle.
There are unibody vehicles that manufacturers claim are stronger than a BOF truck counterpart. JLR claims the L663 Defender's unibody is 3 times stronger than a similar sized BOF vehicle. Not sure what to make of that claim, but I will tell you I've never felt the Defender flex on severely uneven road surfaces where one tire was in the air, where I have heard/felt pick-up trucks do so.
That said, I'll still take a pick-up truck over an SUV for close to max towing capacity duties.
I have both SUVs and pick-up trucks. When towing something that's less than 50-60% of the vehicle's max tow rating, I'll use an SUV. In my case, that's up to say 5,000 lbs. Not because it's the best at towing, but because I like the SUV for longer drives. However, when towing close to max towing capacity, I prefer a pick-up truck.
This is my viewpoint as well. GLS can tow up to 7,700 lbs. I wouldn't be comfortable towing 7,700 lbs with one. 5,000 lbs a couple times a year sure, but if I had to tow 7,700 lbs a couple times a year I would go BOF.
@SW20S Those quotes were taken out of context. If not that current post, as a follow-on to a previous post.
You seem to see red so quickly that you lose the topic.
I try not to repeat prior posts for brevity, expecting readers to pay attention if they're interested in the topic. Pay attention, check references provided, do some research on your own.
For instance:
By WW1 suspension, I mean live axle. Which places the roll center in a position that defeats chassis control. (Note that I didn't say they reduce load capacity, just vehicle control.)
Augmented by inboard shock mounting, which all but one manufacturer still use. Also a control issue.
Ladder frames flex much more than unibodies. It's a fact, not an opinion.
That's why they are preferred for Rock Crawlers, because that flex keeps the off camber wheel more planted.
And it's half of why BOF rigs ride better - the other half is the cushions between the frame and cab.
I hope folks can learn from my research experience and knowledge, and maybe even respect my opinions.
Only one person here has posted his experience, and I'm the only one who has reported towing with both chassis types. You aren't one of them.
If you disagree with an opinion that's fine. Name-calling, misquoting or posting out of context is unproductive at best.
Question for you that I didn't ask when I was talking about "Fully Boxed Frames:" Are all frames other than Ram now boxed at, and aft of the rear axle?
Ram didn't initially and subsequently did. Do All Others?
It's the most critical part to resist hitch deflection.
Hahahaha, taken out of context? If your points aren't clear then you need to make them clear. You made statements and I'm going to hold you to those statements.
Originally Posted by mikapen
For instance: By WW1 suspension, I mean live axle. Which places the roll center in a position that defeats chassis control. (Note that I didn't say they reduce load capacity, just vehicle control.) Augmented by inboard shock mounting, which all but one manufacturer still use. Also a control issue.
But you didn't say live axle, how were we supposed to know you meant live axle? You also said "anything but multi-link" in another post. There is a wide chasm of different suspension layouts between live axle and multi-link. When you say "anything but multi-link is primitive" I take that to mean...well...anything but multilink is primitive which includes double wishbone, strut on coil etc. As I said, the GLE and GLS do not have multi-link front suspensions. They have double wishbone front suspensions same as modern pickups. Modern pickups still have live axles in the rear but not in the front, until you get up into much heavier duty trucks.
Originally Posted by mikapen
Ladder frames flex much more than unibodies. It's a fact, not an opinion.
Originally Posted by mikapen
That's why they are preferred for Rock Crawlers, because that flex keeps the off camber wheel more planted. And it's half of why BOF rigs ride better - the other half is the cushions between the frame and cab.
Ladder frames are built for different purposes. Ladder frames built for rock crawlers have lower rigidity than a ladder frame built for a pickup or BOF SUV. A BOF truck may not have the flat out chassis rigidity of a unibody vehicle, but for towing that type of rigidity isn't of as much benefit as that frame's ability to handle the towing load. BOF SUVs also don't ride "better" than a unibody car, they can have more isolation because the body is isolated from the frame but they also exhibit other undesirable ride characteristics that come from the rigid ladder frame.
Question for you that I didn't ask when I was talking about "Fully Boxed Frames:" Are all frames other than Ram now boxed at, and aft of the rear axle?
Yes, all 1/2 ton+ pickups now have fully boxed frames. Ford introduced the fully boxed frame on the F150 in 2004. Chevy is more recent, since 2019. Ram since 2018. I said that on July 1st. Here is the post:
Originally Posted by SW20S
FYI Ford and GM 1/2 ton pickups also have fully boxed frames, independent front suspension
I have both SUVs and pick-up trucks. When towing something that's less than 50-60% of the vehicle's max tow rating, I'll use an SUV. In my case, that's up to say 5,000 lbs. Not because it's the best at towing, but because I like the SUV for longer drives. However, when towing close to max towing capacity, I prefer a pick-up truck. I've had F450s, F-350s(DRW and SRW), but now I'm down to a Defender, an F150 Tremor and a dedicated towing rig.
Case and point, the Defender is good for 8,200 lbs.
I've pulled 7,500 lbs with my Defender and while it didn't have a difficult time getting up to speed in a reasonable fashion, (it's the V8 version), the towed weight did make itself present in the body of the vehicle. It took a bit more paying attention to. It's not as rock steady as one would think. Was it dangerous or scary? No. But the weight did make itself more noticeable. The Defender comes with the independent air ride suspension under it.
The F150 Tremor is good for 10,900 lbs.
Now, the most I (may or may not) have pulled with my F-150 is around 12,000 lbs. Only 30 miles, two lane road. Night time, no traffic. Was it smart? Eh... It wasn't 5,000 extra lbs. But we're dumb around here, sometimes. Would I have pulled that weight across the country with that truck? Yes and No. Yes because I know it would have mo issues doing do, and no, because if I were to be involved in an accident (at fault or no), a good attorney would instantly jump on having been "overloaded".
The F150, rated for 10,900 lbs had no issues dealing with the additional weight. It didn't translate into any weird body movements, or actions. It just felt more stable, period. I suspect it's because of the longer wheelbase and suspension design. Again, solid axle over independent suspension.
For heavier towing I use an International HV506 good for 55K lbs, but only because an F-550 / 5500 (typically known as a ton and a half or Class 5) would be bumping the GCWR when towing the heavier stuff. I prefer a bit of capability breathing room when towing. Could have gotten an F650 or F750, but FORD doesn't make that chassis with a proper 4x4 configuration.
The heaviest thing I tow weighs ~18,5xx lbs. Call it 19K with the extra crap in it. Put that onto a 12,000 lb trailer and you're at 31K lbs worth of a load. Add the power unit, and the total GCVW gets to around 45K lbs... plus crap in the cab. All that weight acts against you going both uphill and downhill, and a Class 5 wouldn't last long with those weight numbers.
At the end of the day, though... If @mikapen thinks an SUV is better for his towing needs, I'm not going to keep arguing with the gentleman. He believes SUVs are better than pick-up trucks for towing, and I think the opposite. No point in getting into a pi$sing match. As long as his towing rig is not overloaded and he's being safe about it, I'm not out to change his mind.
As far as the uni-body / crossover argument...
I believe all crossovers are unibody, but not all uni-body SUVs are crossovers. For example, new(er) Land Lover products are unibody, but they're not crossovers, since the D7x platform is not some platform repurposed from a car, but rather built from the ground up to be an SUV platform. Yet it's still a unibody design.
I'm in general agreement with @SW20S, when he says
There are unibody vehicles that manufacturers claim are stronger than a BOF truck counterpart. JLR claims the L663 Defender's unibody is 3 times stronger than a similar sized BOF vehicle. Not sure what to make of that claim, but I will tell you I've never felt the Defender flex on severely uneven road surfaces where one tire was in the air, where I have heard/felt pick-up trucks do so.
That said, I'll still take a pick-up truck over an SUV for close to max towing capacity duties.
This is the aforementioned towing rig.
To put the size in perspective:
Thanks for your input.
Some of the things you attribute to me were actually misquoted by @SW20S so let me re-state, and offer some additional thoughts.
No I didn't say, or believe, that SUVs are always better TVs (tow vehicles) than pickups.
I said that I believe a stout Euro SUV is a better TV than a half ton. (Considering what I value most.) I've towed with both, fairly recently, with modern trucks, all well setup and loaded.
I feel more in control with an SUV. Absolutely no comparison on winding roads (where I drive mostly), uneven pavement or in crowded traffic.
I believe that TVs are usually limited by cargo capacity, not the SAE tow rating.
I think there should be a margin of safety and in my case, as posted above (when I went lengthy with pics and numbers) I think my 6,000 lb trailer is maximum for my 7,700lb tow rating.
If I want to pull more than that it'd be with a 1Ton. Not a half ton.
I believe that emergency maneuvering and oversized brakes are extremely important. I'd rather not wreck. Ya gotta go a minimum of 3/4T to match a GLS brakes; 1T to almost match an AMG.
Additional thoughts:
WDH setup and loading is critical.
I was towing a 6,000# trailer with too light tongue weight, with a 27,000# tandem axle TV. The trailer (1/4th the weight) took control when I reached 40mph, I fought it for a quarter mile and ended up on the ditch. Shiny side up, fortunately. Skid marks!
Wheelbase alone isn't the determining factor concerning a TVs control over a trailer.
It's the ratio of the rear overhang to the total wheelbase that determines the leverage the trailer exerts on the TV. Pickups were noticably poorer in this metric - still are, but to a lesser extent recently. Physics. Most noticeable while braking while turning.
If I used a 1T, I'd still use a basic friction Sway Control. $50 well spent. And I'd ignore the SAE2807 tow ratings; paying attention to the cargo capacity on that particular vehicle's door post.
While some pickups with HD tow options have an advertised cargo capacity of 2,400#, that's the max with <zero> equipment. Read the door post sticker. It'll be closer to 1,800#, I'll bet.
Defenders have an advertised empty, no option cargo capacity of 1,900# (internet search, not verified), similar to a GLS.
In practice, a GLS is likely to have a door post rating of 1,000 to 1,250#. I'd expect the Defender to be similar.
That would put your 7,500# trailer in the "overloaded" category by my calculations. I'd expect it to be less than optimal.
I agree with your SUV/CUV/unibody characteristics.
I don't think it's germane to this thread.
My power, for my 6k load, is more than enough to accelerate on almost every Colorado pass, as was the case with my diesels.
I'd like to have the engine braking of a new diesel 1T, but I'd buy a gasser because of weight, handling and maintenance considerations.
I've never had brake fade anywhere, though.
I think we're on the same page, but I wouldn't tow your 7,500# trailer with a Defender. You should be fine with 6k, though.
.....
Ladder frames are built for different purposes. Ladder frames built for rock crawlers have lower rigidity than a ladder frame built for a pickup or BOF SUV. A BOF truck may not have the flat out chassis rigidity of a unibody vehicle, but for towing that type of rigidity isn't of as much benefit as that frame's ability to handle the towing load. BOF SUVs also don't ride "better" than a unibody car, they can have more isolation because the body is isolated from the frame but they also exhibit other undesirable ride characteristics that come from the rigid ladder frame.
Also, chassis rigidity improves ride quality, it doesn't reduce ride quality. Stiffer chassis ride better.
..... Yes, all 1/2 ton+ pickups now have fully boxed frames. Ford introduced the fully boxed frame on the F150 in 2004. Chevy is more recent, since 2019. Ram since 2018. I said that on July 1st. Here is the post:
OMG now you're saying that a BOF isn't a ladder frame.
You just inadvertently agreed with me about chassis stability with unibodies 😲
My question about boxed frames was "AT, AND AFT OF THE REAR AXLE."
Your response didn't address that. "Fully boxed," in advertising lingo has meant "to the rear axle" on the past. Guaranteed.
That info is hard to find, and I'm not interested in crawling around a dealer lot to look at the Big 3.
Can you find that specific info?
OMG now you're saying that a BOF isn't a ladder frame.
You just inadvertently agreed with me about chassis stability with unibodies 😲
My question about boxed frames was "AT, AND AFT OF THE REAR AXLE."
Your response didn't address that. "Fully boxed," in advertising lingo has meant "to the rear axle" on the past. Guaranteed.
That info is hard to find, and I'm not interested in crawling around a dealer lot to look at the Big 3.
Can you find that specific info?
I never said any such thing. I said different ladder frames are designed for different purposes. Yes a BOF truck is a ladder frame.
I agreed that unibodies are more rigid, but I didn’t agree that makes them better for towing.
Yes, the pickup frames are fully boxed all the way to the rear behind the rear axles.
And I wish you would just own up to what you said instead of trying to gaslight us into believing you said something different. You said what you said and you were wrong. Just own it. If you wanted to make specific points about a specific suspension then be specific.
And I wish you would just own up to what you said instead of trying to gaslight us into believing you said something different. You said what you said and you were wrong. Just own it. If you wanted to make specific points about a specific suspension then be specific.
I did when it became clear that you didn't understand.
What I omitted was "live axle," but you kept inserting minutiae and arguing, deflecting from the topic, with statements that I thought should be addressed. And no I didn't say multi-link front suspension - in context it was rear suspension (same sentence I believe).
Lengthy tomes are awkward in a forum. In your case, you'd probably issue another tirade of non sequiturs because I used more words.
I also hope for a bit of consideration for ideas that differ from yours. Not name-calling. Maybe a question for clarification.
And yes your quotes are often out of context.
Thanks for your input.
Some of the things you attribute to me were actually misquoted by @SW20S so let me re-state, and offer some additional thoughts.
Don't have the time to go through the whole thread again, thought you were the one claiming your SUV was better than a 1/2 ton.
No I didn't say, or believe, that SUVs are always better TVs (tow vehicles) than pickups.
I said that I believe a stout Euro SUV is a better TV than a half ton. (Considering what I value most.) I've towed with both, fairly recently, with modern trucks, all well setup and loaded.
And again, there are half tons out there rated for almost twice what your SUV can tow. Not saying they're better for you, but they can safely pull more weight as they're designed for that weight. Most towing vehicles are not made to carve canyons with a trailer behind them.
I feel more in control with an SUV. Absolutely no comparison on winding roads (where I drive mostly), uneven pavement or in crowded traffic.
And like I said, at the end of the day, that's what really matters. What you feel better about. If you feel better towing with an SUV over a pick-up truck, then by all means, have at it.
I believe that TVs are usually limited by cargo capacity, not the SAE tow rating.
I think there should be a margin of safety and in my case, as posted above (when I went lengthy with pics and numbers) I think my 6,000 lb trailer is maximum for my 7,700lb tow rating.
Ok. See a few paragraphs below.
If I want to pull more than that it'd be with a 1Ton. Not a half ton.
If that's what makes you warm and fuzzy, by all means, go for it. A 1 ton pick-up truck is a bit overkill for 7,000 lbs. But again, if that's what you feel comfortable with, go for it. And I mean it, not even being sarcastic.
I believe that emergency maneuvering and oversized brakes are extremely important. I'd rather not wreck. Ya gotta go a minimum of 3/4T to match a GLS brakes; 1T to almost match an AMG.
You know what's even more important than brakes? Gray matter. It's best used prior to having to slam on the brakes. Using engine braking to descend is preferable as I'm certain you know.
But if you do have to slam on the brakes, you're talking about what, roughly 25mm in rotor diameter difference? An Inch larger diameter? We're not comparing 5 inch rotors to 15 inch AMG Carbon Ceramic rotor brakes, here. I would be willing to bet you that both vehicles' brakes will brake hard enough to lock them up (ok, enough for the ABS to kick in).
Additional thoughts:
WDH setup and loading is critical.
I was towing a 6,000# trailer with too light tongue weight, with a 27,000# tandem axle TV. The trailer (1/4th the weight) took control when I reached 40mph, I fought it for a quarter mile and ended up on the ditch. Shiny side up, fortunately. Skid marks!
You're telling me that a 6,000 lb trailer with "too light" of tongue weight made you crash a Class 7 truck? A truck that as you said, weighed 24,000 lbs? And you fought for a 1/4 of a mile? At 40 mph? It took you 22.5 seconds (likely longer, since you were trying to slow down) before you ended up in the ditch? Were you on ice? Next time this happens, start braking the trailer brakes and let the trailer brake the towing vehicle. Not to a complete stop, but enough to where it will straighten itself out. Did you have an electric brake controller on this Class 6 truck? I ask because they mostly have air brakes. Pics of this wrecked Class 6 truck and 6,000 lb trailer? Hopefully you took some.
Wheelbase alone isn't the determining factor concerning a TVs control over a trailer.
It's the ratio of the rear overhang to the total wheelbase that determines the leverage the trailer exerts on the TV. Pickups were noticably poorer in this metric - still are, but to a lesser extent recently. Physics. Most noticeable while braking while turning.
So you're saying that if you have a trailer towed by a truck with a wheelbase of say, 10 feet (using round numbers) and the axle back length is say, 3 feet, the trailer would have the same effect on a truck with the same axle back length, but with a 20 foot wheelbase? Again, just using round numbers. Yes, they're a bit exaggerated.
If I used a 1T, I'd still use a basic friction Sway Control. $50 well spent. And I'd ignore the SAE2807 tow ratings; paying attention to the cargo capacity on that particular vehicle's door post.
While some pickups with HD tow options have an advertised cargo capacity of 2,400#, that's the max with <zero> equipment. Read the door post sticker. It'll be closer to 1,800#, I'll bet.
Sorry, you lost me.
Defenders have an advertised empty, no option cargo capacity of 1,900# (internet search, not verified), similar to a GLS.
In practice, a GLS is likely to have a door post rating of 1,000 to 1,250#. I'd expect the Defender to be similar.
That would put your 7,500# trailer in the "overloaded" category by my calculations. I'd expect it to be less than optimal.
Your calculations are wrong, so let's go to school:
There are several numbers you must take into account:
GVW - Gross Vehicle Weight - This is the max the vehicle can weigh. Vehicle, fuel, passengers and all of their crap. This is not the same as max allowed weight on the axles.
GCVW - Gross Combined Vehicle Weight - This is the max weight a vehicle and trailer combo can be.
Tow Rating - This is the max weight the vehicle can tow.
Now, in my Defender's case, the GVW is 7,120 lbs. This is the max weight the user should load in the vehicle. The front and rear axles are actually rated for 3,505 and 3,965 respectively. But that would put the vehicle over its GVW by what, 350 lbs. So, let's not be dumb, and only load it to 7,120 lbs.
The tow rating is for a max trailer weight, which for my variant is 8,201 lbs.
Now, the manufacturer listed GCWR (or as the Europeans call it, GTW - Gross Train Weight) is 15,320 lbs.
So yeah, you can have the vehicle loaded to its max GVW rating and still pull 8,201 lbs worth of a trailer. But I wouldn't advise it unless you know WTF you're doing, and of course, unless you have the skill to balance the cargo in the vehicle and the trailer, else you'll have too much weight on one axle or another... or tongue.
I agree with your SUV/CUV/unibody characteristics.
I don't think it's germane to this thread.
It sort of is, since this has been brought up as part of this thread.
My power, for my 6k load, is more than enough to accelerate on almost every Colorado pass, as was the case with my diesels.
I'd like to have the engine braking of a new diesel 1T, but I'd buy a gasser because of weight, handling and maintenance considerations.
I've never had brake fade anywhere, though.
That a lot of passes. There are what, 80 some odd paved passes in CO? You Sir, get around. Hopefully in a good way?
Seems to me you think the 1 ton pick-up truck is the only truck worth towing with. And that's fine, I suppose. Your money and all that.
I think we're on the same page, but I wouldn't tow your 7,500# trailer with a Defender. You should be fine with 6k, though.
Alright, thanks for the suggestion.
Last edited by Sathinas; Jul 28, 2025 at 11:45 PM.
Ok line by line. For the most part, already stated. This is exhausting.
Originally Posted by Sathinas
Don't have the time to go through the whole thread again, thought you were the one claiming your SUV was better than a 1/2 ton. As I originally posted and have repeated several times - Under some conditions, and within their limits. I define limits significantly lower than SAE tow ratings. See above.
And again, there are half tons out there rated for almost twice what your SUV can tow. Not saying they're better for you, but they can safely pull more weight as they're designed for that weight. Most towing vehicles are not made to carve canyons with a trailer behind them. I insist that mine are fully capable of carving canyons. I am surrounded by canyons. Switchbacks abound, and things fall off of trucks in front. Deer try to commit suicide. See my post above about my actual accident avoidance that would cause a pickup to struggle at best. More likely it would continue straight into the accident. Nimbleness and COMPLETE control over the trailer requires a sophisticated suspension and a stable platform (chassis) for the suspension to work from effectively. Basic suspension and handling stuff. And good WDH setup.
It's needed once in a blue moon, but that doesn't make it unimportant.
And like I said, at the end of the day, that's what really matters. What you feel better about. If you feel better towing with an SUV over a pick-up truck, then by all means, have at it. Under the conditions and capacities I continually state.
.....
Ok. See a few paragraphs below.
If that's what makes you warm and fuzzy, by all means, go for it. A 1 ton pick-up truck is a bit overkill for 7,000 lbs. But again, if that's what you feel comfortable with, go for it. And I mean it, not even being sarcastic. I agree that a 1T is overkill at 7k, but half tons are barely capable IF they have HD package, by my Cargo Capacity metric. That doesn't even consider the steering and braking shortfalls. Again, most TVs limiting factor isn't the SAE J2807 rating - it's the Cargo Capacity. Hands down. I am saying that I limit my SUV towing to 6,000#, significantly below its rated 7,700 rating. Personal margin of safety, based on cargo capacity. Above that it would be a 1Ton - half ton chasses just flop and hop on crappy pavement. 1Ts are awful to drive except on 4 lane straightaways. I dislike most Interstates.
You know what's even more important than brakes? Gray matter. It's best used prior to having to slam on the brakes. Using engine braking to descend is preferable as I'm certain you know. You must have seen my earlier post. I've never had to Slam on the Brakes. Towing requires full attention and awareness, 100% of the time.
But if you do have to slam on the brakes, you're talking about what, roughly 25mm in rotor diameter difference? An Inch larger diameter? We're not comparing 5 inch rotors to 15 inch AMG Carbon Ceramic rotor brakes, here. I would be willing to bet you that both vehicles' brakes will brake hard enough to lock them up (ok, enough for the ABS to kick in). We're talking 13.75"s to 15.75"s, two pistons to six pistons. Perforated vs not. Add sticky tires vs. truck tires. All around better brakes and traction.
You're telling me that a 6,000 lb trailer with "too light" of tongue weight made you crash a Class 7 truck? A truck that as you said, weighed 24,000 lbs? And you fought for a 1/4 of a mile? At 40 mph? It took you 22.5 seconds (likely longer, since you were trying to slow down) before you ended up in the ditch? Were you on ice? Next time this happens, start braking the trailer brakes and let the trailer brake the towing vehicle. Not to a complete stop, but enough to where it will straighten itself out. Did you have an electric brake controller on this Class 6 truck? I ask because they mostly have air brakes. Pics of this wrecked Class 6 truck and 6,000 lb trailer? Hopefully you took some. The implement I was towing had no brakes. Every time I got below 35 mph it would fishtail violently. I ended in the ditch but as I said above, shiny side up. My emphasis in the story was on loading, hence preceded by the term Loading. Had there been sufficient tongue weight there would have been no issue. It's tongue weight was probably less than 100#, because I lifted and placed it on the pintle hook easily. That was before I knew anything about towing. The boss just said to haul the trailer to the yard. My first tow ever, and it taught me to respect trailering and learn a lot before I towed again. So I did.
So you're saying that if you have a trailer towed by a truck with a wheelbase of say, 10 feet (using round numbers) and the axle back length is say, 3 feet, the trailer would have the same effect on a truck with the same axle back length, but with a 20 foot wheelbase? Again, just using round numbers. Yes, they're a bit exaggerated. I don't follow your math, but I'm talking about the ratio. The RATIO of the rear overhang (distance from rear axle to hitch ball) to the wheelbase.
A 4-ft rear overhang would exert more leverage on 10 ft wheelbase, than a 2-ft overhang on that 10 ft wheelbase. Geometry, physics.
An exaggerated example, obviously not real world, would be a 10 ft overhang on a 10-ft wheelbase. Ratio. BIG leverage. That's why extended ball mounts /stingers are derated - because they increase that leverage ratio. It's often written right on the ball mount extension.
Yes, steering while braking accentuates the issue.
That's also why the hitch label shows exact max and min dimensions. I posted a pic earlier to illustrate.
Your calculations are wrong, so let's go to school: Always ready to learn, but you're about to regurgitate what I posted earlier....
There are several numbers you must take into account:
GVW - Gross Vehicle Weight - This is the max the vehicle can weigh. Vehicle, fuel, passengers and all of their crap. This is not the same as max allowed weight on the axles.
GCVW - Gross Combined Vehicle Weight - This is the max weight a vehicle and trailer combo can be.
Tow Rating - This is the max weight the vehicle can tow.
Now, in my Defender's case, the GVW is 7,120 lbs. This is the max weight the user should load in the vehicle. Actually it's the max weight of the entire rig including cargo, not the load.
The front and rear axles are actually rated for 3,505 and 3,965 respectively.But that would put the vehicle over its GVW by what, 350 lbs. So, let's not be dumb, and only load it to 7,120 lbs.
The tow rating is for a max trailer weight, which for my variant is 8,201 lbs.
Now, the manufacturer listed GCWR (or as the Europeans call it, GTW - Gross Train Weight) is 15,320 lbs. 3263, 3638, 6724 That's pretty much what I posted above. My GLE 3,263F, 3,638R. GVWR 6,724, dry weight about 5,100.
Except there's no GCWR on any German SUV I've seen. Where is your British combined weight found? (Oops I see it in your charts. Had to get a magnifying glass to see.)
No matter - that would be far above my margin of safety. My individual car's actual sticker (posted above, now posted below) Its NOT the advertised weights. It's the ACTUAL for my car, as equipped.
So yeah, you can have the vehicle loaded to its max GVW rating and still pull 8,201 lbs worth of a trailer. But I wouldn't advise it me neither, unless you know WTF you're doing, not even then and of course, unless you have the skill to balance the cargo in the vehicle and the trailer, else you'll have too much weight on one axle or another... or tongue. That's why I go to the scales, as posted above. I verify, not guess. I have about 250# leeway for each axles GAWR. And about 700# under GVWR. I'm conservative. I know my weights.
Now I see them. I've never seen GCVR for any of my German SUVs, but I'll bet my total combined weight of 11,000 lbs is OK.
......
That a lot of passes. There are what, 80 some odd paved passes in CO? You Sir, get around. Hopefully in a good way? Maybe I said it wrong. I can accelerate over almost every pass I've towed. Power isn't an issue.
Seems to me you think the 1 ton pick-up truck is the only truck worth towing with. And that's fine, I suppose. Your money and all that. I keep saying if I have to tow more than I'm towing now, it wouldn't be a half ton, it wouldn't be a 3/4 ton. It would be, reluctantly, a 1 ton. The overall length can be similar, but the strength is there. I'd go way out of my way to avoid having to use such a beast, though. My longest rig was a 147" wheelbase Club cab. It was only good on the open road. I don't like taking up three lanes when turning, in a town with only two lanes. That eliminates many destinations.
And I dislike having the rig walk sideways on washboards because the chassis is jumping around. It's called loss of control.
I still think 7,500 lb is too much trailer for your Defender, based on the numbers you've posted. If you have sufficient tongue weight, you'd likely be above your cargo capacity.
Alright, thanks for the suggestion.
I think I've clarified and addressed your complaints/comments.
Ridgid chassis, advanced suspension, big brakes = SUV. Within limits, with a margin of safety.
It's my informed opinion.
Nobody here has offered any cogent reason to change that opinion.
I hope my calculations and reasoning are informative to others.
Apologies if I don't provide enough detail in every post, but my expectation has been that people actually read them, in context, and as an addendum to or clarification of a previous post.
This is a really long thread. I could ignore all the personal attacks and misquotes, if they didn't provide misleading information. Or non-information as the case may be. There could be safety issues.
I would choose a BOF Yukon etc if I was towing 7,700 lbs. Too close to the max rating of the GLS for me. If I was rarely towing a max of 5-6k lbs I would consider something like the GLS. That doesn't mean a GLS is a better tow vehicle than a Ram pickup though, it just means for my needs the SUV is the better overall vehicle.
This is what I was getting at. We're tripping over the definition of "better". Pickups are designed and marketed around payload and some people that buy them even use that capacity. However I suspect that just like most SUVs never leave the pavement, most pickups will never see a load that heavy.
My experience is towing ~4 - 5k lbs of boat and gear. Started with a 1999 Yukon. It did the job for many years but had some short comings. Picked up a diesel W164 and thought that was a nice upgrade. Ride, handling, braking, and power were all improved. The 164 does have steel springs and the extra load is absolutely noticed however it was more controlled than the Yukon. Now we have the GLS with air and E-ABC and it's another significant upgrade. Same boat, all three vehicles. Not a 100% apples to apples comparison due to the age difference between the vehicles but it's the experience I can speak about.
I think I'm going to get rid of the double jet ski trailer and have no load to worry about after reading all this. LOL
My son would kill me.
I'll tell you what though, I have learned a lot more about towing. I still love my Ram, and will be sad to see it go. Too bad the old Stellantis chief killed it.
OP, I have the factory tow package on my 2020 GLS 450. I have pulled our 20ft center console boat a few times from the outer banks back to our home east of Raleigh. 0% problems, did just fine. You should have no problems with a pair of jet skis. I’m original owner, 85k miles, zero mechanical problems.
Now can everyone please put their peckers away. You have hijacked this guys thread for a pissing contest. He asked if he can tow a pair of jet skis with a GLS450. That’s it.
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Slideshow: A one-of-one U.S.-spec Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Roadster became even rarer after a factory-backed transformation at McLaren's headquarters.
Hopefully in a good way?
