996Yayo

well as you can see, i rarely post here. but i had an entertaining run last night with a CL600, and i wanted to see if he's on the forums...


so last night i was sitting at a red light in the right (slow) lane, when a light metallic blue-gray CL pulls up next to me. i didn't think anything of it, so when the light went green i just kinda rolled off the line. sure enough this guy gets on it right away, so i lay into the gas. by the time i shift to 2nd gear i'm already reeling him in, when all of the sudden he decides to move into the left lane. well the next light is no more than 500ft. away, and the lane he's in soon becomes one of the left turn lanes for the I-75 north on-ramp. i'm thinking "YESSSSSSSS...a highway run ."

...so we make the left onto the ramp, only we've got an SUV between us now. i look to my left and notice that there is no traffic to worry about as we all merge onto the highway. so i get on the highway a little early by burrying the throttle and cutting across the paint. as soon as i can see around the SUV in front of me, i notice the rear end of the CL600 squat like crazy, so i know he's seen me and that he's on it now. now i suppose i got the jump since i was already on it when i saw his car squat, but i was also about 5 car lengths back, and i knew he wasn't going to wait for me to line up next to him. nevertheless, i was @ 45mph in 2nd gear when i took off from the on-ramp. i moved all the way over to thefast lane while he took the middle. midway through 4th gear i had a 5 car lead.

well i wasn't sure if and/or when he let off, and i did get the jump from the beginning of the race, so i decided to brake hard down to about 70mph and let him catch up. he came up doing about 80mph, and so i matched it as he got next to me. hmm...he no longer wants to play . my car lurches forward as i blip the throttle a few times, but he's no longer taking the bait. so i sped off in typical ricer fashion and exit at the next ramp . oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

anyways, i was just wondering if the driver is a member here. this all went down around 8:00pm in Sarasota, FL (on the stretch of I-75 between Clark Rd. and Bee Ridge Rd.). i just wanna say that you baited me on good! i had no intention of getting on the highway, but i couldn't pass up the chance to race an instigating V12 .

Carl Lassiter

Nice write up. The NA Merc V12s certainly give a great opportunity to pull off a giant-killing.

MercedesFTW

I thought the 600 engines were also biturboed...just not to the same level as the 65s?

Carl Lassiter

They are now but only from 2003/4 onwards. They originally produced 360bhp but that went up to 500. Kind of like the G55 situation. I'd have been pretty mad if i'd bought either one brand new just before the change to forced induction.

Vic55

Exactly, I had a 2002 CL600 loaner and it was slower than my W210 E55 by alot via the seat of the pants feel.

To me it felt like a tank, but never-the-less, good kill against the V12.

itsmeek

nice kill. but don't roll up on a tt one if you're just bpu. they are extremely quick.

996Yayo

that is true in my particular case...i only have a 3" turbo-back exhaust and a boost controller (currently running 16-17psi)...that's as basic as BPU gets. but there are several Supras out there that are still on the stock twin turbos (i.e. still BPU) pushing around 500whp...so i'm not too worried about it - but i obviously have my work cut out for me .



that is why i specified an N/A CL600 in the thread title. to be honest with you though, it did not dawn on me to look at the badging on the front fender when he was next to me at the light...so at that point i did not know whether it was a V12 or a V12 Biturbo. but after the race went down, there was no doubt in my mind that it was not turbo.

BlownV8

I have over 500 RWHP in my bi-turbo CL 600 but it's over 500 RWHP from around 2,000 RPM all the way to redline. It's kind of hard to compare to a car that has a peak of 500 RWHP with one that averages around 500 RWHP.

Here's a recent dyno:
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/imag...32d83cb73a.jpg

996Yayo

sorry if i'm not too familiar with the dyno of an automatic car, but i take it those sharp dips in the lines are the auto tranny shifting on the dyno? if so, what gear are you in as you hit 500whp on the dyno? and moreover, regardless of what gear it is, wouldn't your revs at that point be a bit higher than 2000 rpm while giving it juice on the dyno? i guess it would be easier to tell if the dyno read RPM at the bottom . regardless, if you're truly making all that power at just 2000 rpm, that is very impressive.

as for comparing a car that maintains 500 whp from 2000 rpm to redline to a car that only peaks at 500 whp, i know exactly what you mean. but i'd still wager that a 500 whp BPU Supra would certainly keep up with you, if not pull you, regardless of how much more power/torque you're making. you're dragging around 1100 lbs more than a Supra, and no matter how many times people argue that weight doesn't play much of a factor from a roll, you can't simply ignore 1100 lbs. in addition, a BPU with 500 whp is a BPU with alot of work done to it, and for sure a tune...which means these cars are not peaking at 5500 rpm and falling to redline like a Supra without a tune. rather they're peaking closer to 4000 rpm and maintaining it all the way to 8000 or so rpm instead of the stock 6800 rpm.. no, it isn't as nice as having that same power on tap as soon as 2000 rpm...buts its enough to stay ahead, or at least with a 4600 lb car making the power you do. besides, traction can sometimes be a problem with that kind of power anyways...i'm sure if i were making all that power at 2000 rpm i'd have even more problems haha. anyways, i hate more than anything to speculate (aka bench race), but i probably won't have 500 whp for a while, so while racing would be fun...for me anyways, it would be pointless. besides, you're in your garage and i'm all the way over here in FL .


btw, what is your torque like? can you post a dyno w/ HP and torque? and was the 398 hp dyno run done while the car was stock (or at least before your upgrades)? what do you have done to her? sorry for all the questions...i'm just curious.

regor60

Doesn't work that way. Torque maybe flat across the rpm range, not hp. HP peaks generally near redline.

996Yayo

this is true in a very generic sense. but like he said, his car supposedly averages 500 whp across the rev range. and we're not talking about the kind of car that averages 500 whp by making 200 whp for most of the rev band and 800 whp somewhere near redline. rather it sustains 500 whp throughout a generous portion of the rev band. look at his dyno...it doesn't lie. i know dynos aren't perfect, and there are too many variables to to try and claim consitency from one dyno to the next, but going by his dyno graph is much better proof than going on his word alone.

needless to say, not all power graphs look perfectly linear. they just typically follow that generic curve. for example, a car making 500 whp @ 6000 rpm should theoretically only be making 250 whp @ 3000 rpm if its power curve is perfectly linear, or close to it. however, i'm sure we've all seen cars that make a maximum of 500 whp at a particular rpm on the dyno, but are making well over 250 whp @ half that particular rpm (namely turbo cars - notice how power climbs sharply as the turbo(s) spools...granted this lag is less noticeable in the Benz, but its quite obvious on a Supra's dyno graph).

e55 baller

The Supra is definitely a peak dyno queen. I had 2 of them. I had one pushing 700rwhp at redline on pump gas...I only had like 250rwhp at 3.5K rpms. It was terrible. The car was either FAST as hell or SLOW as hell on the highway at cruise rpms. I could barely pass cars without downshifting, then when I did I would be worried about rear ending them milliseconds later. On average it sucked so I sold it. I should never single T'ed it.

There is no way a Supra is going pull any AMG out of the hole unless it is auto w/ stall or 2-step (some run 10.9@118). From a 80+ highway roll they are nasty...even the baby BPU and BPU+

Too bad they don't come back with one and jazz up the interior and get rid of the crappy leather. The inline 6 is increadible. The Supra 08/09 model looks edgy and ugly.

996Yayo

i guess Supra owners tend to love the power delivery while ex-Supra owners hate it or they'd still own one. i personally love the rush and excitement i get from the way the power comes on all of the sudden. and i certainly don't mind the extra effort it takes to drop down a gear or two to put me in my power band. besides, i'd rather drop down a few gears anyways than try and pass someone in 6th gear. sure its impressive if you can do that, but its just not as fun if the engine isn't wailing in the upper rpm's. as peaky as a Supra's power/torque is, there is still plenty on tap to pass others in a higher gear @ moderately low rpm's...maybe not nearly as much as some of the big dogs here with their torquey S/Ced V8s and Biturbo V12s, but enough nonetheless. i guess i'll just have to wait until i'm making 700 whp to see if i still like the Supra's driveablility (or lack thereof ).

as for not being able to take any AMG from a dig...i'm assuming you're just referring to single turbo'd Supras putting down way more power and torque than i am . the fact that a Supra's powerband is peaky only exaggerates its traction loss as that power comes on in an instant. but that same traction loss isn't really an issue for the competent BPU Supra driver. i just wanted to make that clear so that people don't just buy into the myth that Supras in general do not get good traction. i'm a 6-speed, (as opposed to an auto w/ a stall) and i launch as well as any AMG. in fact, if i could launch as well as i have in the past, but on a regular basis, i'm not sure any AMG would get to 60mph before me. racing beyond 60mph is another story...there are quite a few AMG's out there that could kill me if we kept going (SL55, SL65, CLS65, etc. to name just a few).


*EDIT* - i just noticed in your sig that your other Supra was 424whp. surely you were able to take just about any AMG from a dig to at least 60mph given the chance? any stock AMG in the same power range is a much heavier car, and a dig is where weight has the most effect on acceleration.

BlownV8

The dip is when the car downshifted on the dyno. We had to let off the accelerator so the car could upshift to continue the run. That's why you see the dip. The 524 RWHP run was done in 4th gear vs 3rd gear on the pre modified run. The Renntech ECU/TCU moves the speed limiter from 130 mph to 187 mphm so a 4th gear run could not be done before the mods. Yes, the CL is heavy but when you look at the average hp/tq over the range it's phenominal. Acceleration is crisp at any rpm and in any gear to say the least.

The 500 RWHP mark came a little later than 2000 RPM but I was just using that so you could understand the difference between a peaky motor like the Supra and a flat motor like the tt 600 & 65. The Supra can be made extremely quick with the right driver and the right gear. The twin turbo 600/65 is fast in anyones hands from a stop or a roll.

Getting a tach signal from these cars is very difficult. There are no ignition wires that are accessible. I could have removed the lower engine cover and put a magnetic strip on the crank pulley but it's a pain to remove the lower engine cover.

The reason that you see such a flat hp curve is because the small turbos are making full boost very very early but lose efficiency higher in the rpm range. Otherwise, you would should see well over 700 RWHP.


Renntech rates the torque at 775 with the upgrade and 635 hp but it's pretty obvious that my runs were higher on both peak numbers. The 398 hp was bone stock. The after is Renntech stage 1. However, Stage 3 should be fun!

BlownV8

Look at the dyno chart. The hp peaks pretty early and stays flat on the Mercedes TT V12. However, you can't really tell where the hp or torque are peaking beacuse they looked to be merged. HP and tq should always intersect at 5252 and they don't in this dyno. Here they intersect at 4500. There is something wrong with the chart but it does give you an idea of the torque and hp curves.

The tt V12 has unbelievable torque at the low end that drops as the rpm's increase due to the small turbos. That's why the hp curve is so flat. HP is just a measure of torque X rpm/5252.

Here is a dyno from a Renntech stage 1 CL65. You will see what I'm talking about:

HLG600

Nice run. Supra's are sharp looking cars just begging to be tuned. In regards to the massive weight, on a highway run, the weight no longer becomes an overwhelming obstacle. From a standstill, the key issue with these cars is traction. Turn off TC on a CL65, floor it, and it will remain stationary with the rears meltling to the ground. My car with 420TQ has traction issues each and every time from standstill (sometimes even from a 30 mph roll). But, it pulls beautifully on the highway. Same design with the BiTurbo V12, only faster. 1100 lbs greater will be noticed off the line and especially in corners, but once moving at 60+ mph, the momentum blurs the line.

HLG

996Yayo

there is nothing wrong with this dyno...the graph is just out of scale (i.e. the numbers on the left (HP) don't match the numbers on the right (torque)). if they were scaled, the HP and torque curves would cross @ 5252rpm.





i understand what you're saying, and this is very true in a generic sense. but the relationship isn't a linear one...in other words, while this generally holds true for a weight difference of say anywhere from 100-600lbs, the effect essentially increases exponentially as weight increases from that point on. when the difference is a whopping 1100lbs, it really does help me out alot (i.e. not only on the launch, but at high speeds too...at least for a while. if we were talking about the SL65, i think we can all agree that he'd pull me (or a 500whp BPU Supra for that matter) much harder up top as well...and we can only attribute this to the fact that the SL65 is lighter than the CL65).

HLG600

No doubt weight is a huge factor in a vehicle's performance. But as momentum builds, the detrimental bearing of weight begins to diminish. Man, MB really needs to make the SL half a ton lighter...

BlownV8

My Renntech CL weighs 4575 lbs and has around 655 hp and over 775 lb-ft of torque. A stock SL 65 weighs 4299 and has 604 hp and 737 lb-ft of torque. My Renntech CL has a better power to weight ratio than a stock SL 65.

Look at the dragtimes between the CL600 Renntech and a stock SL65:
http://www.dragtimes.com/compare2.ph...ame=Compare%21

996Yayo

HAHA i meant a stock CL600, not yours . i most certainly would stand a better chance against the stock SL65 than you...and i'd still get raped.


btw, thanks for the link to those 1/4 mile times. i see that the two CL600's at the top of the list are trapping in the same range as a very healthy BPU Supra - say, around 500whp - which trap anywhere from 118-125mph (driver dpendent obviously ).

fairladyz

Nice, those Supras are very potent on the highways...

AMG_Mike

woot for SUPRAS!

nicegsxr

Supras are definitely on my all time favorite car list.

ChicagoX

Do you know what a 500whp Supra has in common with a 900whp Supra?














They both run low 13's.

996Yayo

i don't know if you're just terribly misinformed and actually believe in that myth, or if you're just giving us a joke to laugh at...either way, i'm amused.