Jon200

that'll be great, can't wait

Improviz

I invite people to click on your posting handle and check the threads you've instigated on this website. Each and every one of them is flamebait, and this is exactly what you used to do on the Audiworld S4 website: ou would show up and post some datapoint which supported your view, and dismiss those which do not. Your posts are purely and simply designed to generate ill will and start arguments.

But below, it seems like you're flip-flopping and changing your position, such that you now claim the two cars are fairly evenly matched in a straightline race. You're making progress...there is hope for you yet.

And why don't you get someone who actually knows how to launch a high-torque RWD car behind the wheel of that C55? If the CLK55 (W209) can run a 13.1 (Car & Driver, twice) with the same motor, driveline, and gearing, then the C55 should be capable of the same times, given that it's lighter still...

A 13.4 sounds much more like it...your friend totally botched it on the first run. And you, if you are indeed the drag-racing expert you seem to be portraying yourself as, should be well aware that a broken-in car (20,000 miles or so, which yours doubtlessly has by now) will be a few tenths faster than when it was brand new...so wait until your friend has 10,000 miles under his belt, and race him again.

M&M

I never said the all-conquering M3 will kill a C32 or C55. It will always be close. But it can & does beat them. Just like all the stories you posted of M3's being killed. I'm sure it did happen.

I happen to be drag & circuit racing for 7 years now with some cars a lot more powerful than a C32/M3. So lauching an M3 is "relatively" easy for me seeing as my race car has 2.5 times the torque. I can consistently get 1.8-1.9 60ft's on street tyres with my M3. I also know all the tricks like dropping rear pressure, staging shallow, getting the oil warm but not hot, warming the tyres, powershifting, shifting at optimum revs, cooling intake manifold, etc.

Prepped like so & launch properly under good conditions any M3 can do 13.0 @ 108.

I'm sure the C32/C55 needs a bit of skill to get the best time. But it's a whole heap easier than an M3 being auto. That's why given 2 average drivers, the C32/55 would probaly be quicker. I've seen it happen.

BenzoAMGpower

screw the track with all that VHT, line the cars up on pavement @ at a red light and lets see what happens!! Now thats a video worth watching...

M&M

It's easier for the M3 on the street from standstill. Less torque means you rev it to 4-5000rpm, slip the clutch a bit & then your auto opponent needs 10-15% more wheel power to run you down from behind. Laws of physics dictate you can't run a lighter car down if you have similar power. Torque don't mean jack in a race.

Rolling is another story. You need to get your revs up to compete.

BenzoAMGpower

[QUOTE=M&M]Torque don't mean jack in a race.[QUOTE]


that my friend is one of the funniest things i have EVER heard!!! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahahahaha hahaha!!!

Jon200

are you sure?

IdriveFast

of course hes sure!

cause racing is all about high revving N/A's, low torque, and a good ole 6 speed!

everything that the good ole M3 is about!

fastest car in the world!

M&M

I take it you guys in the financial field or something 'cos you definitely didn't study physics at college. Do a Google search & you will see.

But, by definition horsepower is the rate at which torque is applied. If you are interested in a once-off application of force, then torque is important. For example, if you put a tennis ball on a bar & apply torque once-off.

It will accelerate due to F=MA. Force = mass x acceleration. Therefore, A = F/M. So acceleration is calculated by force (torque) divided my mass. That's it! Horsepower means jack!

But wait! The frictional forces acting on the tennis ball will slow it down quite quickly. If you want it to continue moving you need to KEEP APPLYING FORCE. Put you finger against the ball & keep applying torque. That's horsepower, my well-educated friends.

The ability to sustain torque or the rate at which torque is applied is horsepower BY DEFINITION. You can do a little work very quickly or lots of work slowly to get to the same result. F1 cars have similar torque to an M3, but they have 900hp 'cos the do a little work very fast.

In a race, once you've taken off, you need to overcome air resistance & horsepower is the main factor in that. In the equation for top speed:



torque doesn't even feature. You need to know POWER, rho, drag co-efficient & frontal area. THIS IS AN UNDISPUTED FACT! IF you want to argue, take it up with Sir Isaac Newton. Torque & horsepower are closely related, so torque does matter indirectly.

But back to the topic, in a straight line drag race, you need more power, not torque, to catch a car from behind. If you are catching him then chances are, you DO have more horsepower, but you think it's the torque doing it.

Say do you guys know that torque does not have a time unit associated with it? So you can't measue anything torque-related against a stopwatch.

BenzC32

oh well....
M3 is the fastest car in the world.

Less torque car is always faster.

FrankW

the M3's lighter by what? 50lbs?

oh yeah, and BLAH BLAH BLAH...to the thread.

yes, yes, torque doesn't mean jack off the line.... I wonder how those TopFuel Dragster gets to 300mph so fast?

Jon200

torque is just as important as horsepower in a drag race. Everytime you wheels start turning, there is torque because a force needs to be applied in order to move them. The M3 does have plenty of torque, 360Nm from a 3.2NA is brilliant


M cars are more sports-biased therefore they are revvier and more peaky. Would you be saying the same thing if M cars had more torque than AMG?

Torque isn't everything but it certain means something in a drag race

E55 RUSS

Torgues is important!!!

Belmondo

Jon200

what ya trying to say?

M&M

Yes of course I agree. Torque is important. Especially to get a mass moving. Once it's moving it's horsepower than matters. Torque is so closely related to horsepower that it is also important.

But using horsepower & gearing you can make up for lack of torque. What's more important that torque is the shape of the torque curve in the nand where you are racing, 'cos that will dictate the horsepower. If your torque is dropping at the top, then your hp will be dropping badly.

& let's be honest. When u racing u live in the top 2000rpm range. You are never going to be below 4500rpm in a race situation after 1st gear. So the the car that holds its torque to redline will have the advantage.

Jon200

so torque doesn't mean jack then

Vomit

M&M's quotes:

"You are never going to be below 4500rpm in a race situation after 1st gear."
"Torque don't mean jack in a race."


M&M: Would you not agree that the first couple of seconds (i.e., sub-4500 rpm range of 1st gear) of a 0-60 or 1/4 mile run are the most important part of the race, and that torque factors heavily in getting the car out of the hole?

We may be talking apples and oranges here, however. If you are "adolescent launching" your M3 (4500 RPM clutch pop and a cloud of tire smoke), then I guess that torque will play less of a role. I can't imagine that you are doing this to your car! Assuming that you are not fond of replacing your clutch, and that your engine speed dips below 4500 RPM at some point during launch, then torque is important to you too.

With an auto tranny (don't get me started), and launches in the range of 1200-1500 RPM, torque is a huge factor. Not to be ridiculous, but can you imagine launching the 3600 lb. C32 if it had 349 HP and, say, 10 lbs. of torque? Your 60 foot times would be in the double digits, and, by the time that you really got going, that Yugo GV that just smoked you in the 1/4 would already be back in the staging area for another run.

For a guy who seems to fancy himself as some sort of physics guru, you seem to be making assertions which would cause Newton to roll over in his grave.

M&M

Yeah, but having too much torque for the available traction is also not good. The guy as Englishtown that ran 12.8 with a stock M3 did a 1.7 60ft on stock tyres. His exit speed was 106 so it wasn't horsepower that did that time. You should check the video. 5000rpm & he came off the clutch a whisker slower than dumping it. Obviously the tract was well prepped.

I'm willing to bet an S2000 will do a better 60ft than a C32/55. Where's the torque helping there?

BenzoAMGpower

so what was his 60' time b/c my cousin on bald street tires at Moroso speedway pulls 1.8second 60' times in his chip and pulleyed C32!!

Vomit

Question from M&M: "I'm willing to bet an S2000 will do a better 60ft than a C32/55. Where's the torque helping there?"

Vomit's Answer: It's not. You are talking about a high-RPM "horsepower launch." You and I already agree that a car with a manual tranny that is launched from high RPMs and kept there throughout a race can get by without much torque. In the course of trying to disagree with me, you are agreeing with me.

To illustrate my point, let's talk apples to apples here: Force your hypothetical S2000 to rely on torque by giving it an auto tranny (like the C32) or by forcing it to launch from low RPMs. The S2000 will get obliterated at every stage of a 1/4 mile race, BECAUSE IT HAS A LOW-TORQUE POWERPLANT. The only way that, with equal drivers, an S2000 will beat a C32 (or an M3, for that matter) up to 60 ft is with a manual tranny and if the S2000 driver uses a high-RPM launch (i.e. does not rely on the S2000's nonexistant torque) and dumps the clutch pretty hard (much like the ideal M3 launch which you described).

Actually, I can speak from personal experience. I raced a 2004 S2000 at Carlsbad with Dink (from this forum). I obliterated it at every stage (60ft, 1/8, 1/4). Why did I kill it at 60 ft? Because the S2000 driver was launching at 3000 RPMs or so, and the s2000's lack of torque left him farting in the wind. This is exactly my point. Torque matters big-time, especially if your car has an auto tranny or you are not willing to abuse your drivetrain by launching inside of your HP powerband (which for the S2000 is probably in excess of 6000 RPMs!)

My take on this issue:

1. If you have an automatic tranny (short of one with some sort of wacked-out torque/stall converter), torque matters in any race from a stop.

2. Even if you have a manual tranny, if you (like most people, I suspect) are not willing to clutch-drop your $60K sports car/daily driver, and you take it easy at the launch, torque matters in any race from a stop.

3. If you are willing to launch a manual tranny car pretty hard within the HP powerband, torque matters much less.

So, unless you have a manual tranny and are willing to fry some clutch, torque matters!!

M&M

Ok, but then do you agree that there may be a point where one has too much torque? And then a smoky burnout is inevitably the result.

I'm sure you guys know that a gear ratio is a torque mutiplier. A shorter gear with a shorter ratio rear end multiplies your torque by a larger amount than a long gear. Big V8's & roots type blowers have a huge torque plateau which is good for an everyday car. Long gearing suits the torque curve of those cars. It wouldn't be much benefit putting short gears to a car with a torque profile like that.

Anyway, how much torque does an M3 have at 4500rpm? How much does a C32/55 have at the point where you brake torque it (1500-2000rpm)? C32/C55 may have slightly more on the engine. Getting to wheels (after all we don't drive around with an engine on a bench), the shorter geared M3 by virtue of a higher multiplication (as well as less drivetrain loss) probably has the same, if not more, torque getting to the wheels.

I know its not fair to compare one car at 2000rpm & the other at 4500rpm, but that's the way its going to happen at the stop lights. If adrenaline gets the better of either driver, then he may get more wheelspin that the other & lose the race. Inevitably its the guy that can get the most torque with the least wheelspin to get off the line. After that the car with more horsepower will win.

FrankW

WTF! I thought u just said "torque don't mean jack" couple posts ago??? Now you are saying it does matter? make up your mind and stop changing the direction of your boat every time a bigger wave hits you on the side.

M&M

OK I may have exaggerated a bit there for dramatic effect. What I meant is torque doesn't mean much in flat out race. Ask a formula 1 driver.

Jon200

oh great now ur bringing the F1 into this.

The C32/C55 have a lot more torque than the M3 and ur did/saying torque doesn't mean much or means jack because the M3 simply lacks torque.

Not that it matters anymore because you have brought the almighty F1 drivers into this so torque means nothing.

Have you ever considered how much these F1 cars weight compared to ur god-like M3 or the C32/C55? Have you considered the amount of technology that is used in the F1 engines (having a complete different valve system)? The F1 is altogether a different animal