Video: M3 vs C55, 5000ft elevation
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From: Diamond Bar, CA
W206 PHEV AMG
Originally Posted by Ahmed
As long as that benz has that 5 speed shiithole they call "GEARBOX", it will never stand a chance against the M3!
it wasn't doing much for your old car because it was a CLK320 w/ CLK55 badge on it.
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From: SOUTH AFRICA
Nothing
I just have to reply to this thread. I think I can clearly say I have the strongest C32 in SA. I have raced an E46 M3 from 50kph to 180kph and beat it by about 2 cl. I did a 600m sprint event at Wesbank raceway with a topspeed of 204. There were about 4 E46 M3's and I think 2 older models. They fastest M3 did 201. I did a high speed oval at Gerotek. I did a 238 and the fastest E46 did a 235. There was a M3 CSL which did 250, which i put down mostly to traction. My ESP light was flashing the whole corner (about 400m). I entered the corner at 248(indicated) and exited it at 238(indicated). So what does all this means? I don't really know or care. All I'm trying to say is that are always people who will say the M3 is quicker and some will say the C32 is quicker. One thing though, I do not post that the C32 is quicker than the M3 on the BMW forums, because I don't care what they think, and I don't honestly think they care what I have to say. So M&M, stop posting here, unless you have something meaningfull to add to the AMG scene.
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From: Vancouver
C32
Originally Posted by M&M
OK, so this thread has gone full circle & now I have to repeat myself. A C32/55 race is close enough that it will be down to the driver. More specifically it will be down to the M3 driver as its significantly harder to launch a manual than an auto.
The fact that 99% of the world's auto magazines got the M3 quicker (even quicker trap speeds) indicates that with a skilled driver the M3 is quicker. Does that make sense or you guys want to live in a dream world where you say all over the world the C32 has been sabotaged to get worse numbers?
But on the street not all drivers are as skilled as the Magazine test drivers. So the C32 would probably prevail if both drivers are average. But that just means you beat that driver.
The fact that 99% of the world's auto magazines got the M3 quicker (even quicker trap speeds) indicates that with a skilled driver the M3 is quicker. Does that make sense or you guys want to live in a dream world where you say all over the world the C32 has been sabotaged to get worse numbers?
But on the street not all drivers are as skilled as the Magazine test drivers. So the C32 would probably prevail if both drivers are average. But that just means you beat that driver.
I have friends who drive E46 M3, i don't hate BMW, i just hate those BMW drivers who think their car is the fastest on the world. :p
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From: Bahrain
R129 SL55 AMG & W208 CLK55 AMG
Originally Posted by FrankW
try to get next to the SLR and beat that shiithole they call "gearbox"
it wasn't doing much for your old car because it was a CLK320 w/ CLK55 badge on it.
it wasn't doing much for your old car because it was a CLK320 w/ CLK55 badge on it.
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AMGfanatic, I don't think your car is stock. But anyway, at Gerotek Sergio Jorge did 250 in a stock M3. 2ndly, if your 600m speed in 2km/h higher doesn't mean that you will be faster to that distance. And with the M3 losing 17% power to altitude I would expect more than a 2km/h (1.25mph) difference in trap speed over 1/2 mile.
But, if you are game, pitch up to Wesbank raceway this Sunday 17 October. My buddy with a C55 is coming. I will race you & get it on tape for everyone here to see. What say you?
But, if you are game, pitch up to Wesbank raceway this Sunday 17 October. My buddy with a C55 is coming. I will race you & get it on tape for everyone here to see. What say you?
Last edited by M&M; Oct 11, 2004 at 10:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by AMG FANATIC
All I'm trying to say is that are always people who will say the M3 is quicker and some will say the C32 is quicker. One thing though, I do not post that the C32 is quicker than the M3 on the BMW forums, because I don't care what they think, and I don't honestly think they care what I have to say. So M&M, stop posting here, unless you have something meaningfull to add to the AMG scene.
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From: MB - World
Originally Posted by Ahmed
As long as that benz has that 5 speed shiithole they call "GEARBOX", it will never stand a chance against the M3!
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Hey Jon, you are totally wrong about the Gt2 vs GT3. GT2 is a stripped out, RWD, more powerful version of the 911 turbo. Has different suspension & wheels & there's even a CLubsport version with rollcage, etc. It's a 911 turbo for the track. Look it up. But it can't beat its less powerful, less torquey NA little brother. Why?
BTW, this has nothing to do with BMW or MERc, just a theoretical question.
BTW, this has nothing to do with BMW or MERc, just a theoretical question.
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From: Diamond Bar, CA
W206 PHEV AMG
Originally Posted by M&M
Hey Jon, you are totally wrong about the Gt2 vs GT3. GT2 is a stripped out, RWD, more powerful version of the 911 turbo. Has different suspension & wheels & there's even a CLubsport version with rollcage, etc. It's a 911 turbo for the track. Look it up. But it can't beat its less powerful, less torquey NA little brother. Why?
BTW, this has nothing to do with BMW or MERc, just a theoretical question.
BTW, this has nothing to do with BMW or MERc, just a theoretical question.
Last edited by FrankW; Oct 11, 2004 at 04:20 PM.
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From: Bahrain
R129 SL55 AMG & W208 CLK55 AMG
Originally Posted by Jon200
it is not a manual but it is still a gearbox, to say it will never stand a chance against the M3 is a bit of an understatement isn't it?
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From: Diamond Bar, CA
W206 PHEV AMG
Originally Posted by Ahmed
5 speed automatic vs a 6 speed sequential gearbox! You do the maths!
so which one's faster??
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Originally Posted by M&M
Hey Jon, you are totally wrong about the Gt2 vs GT3. GT2 is a stripped out, RWD, more powerful version of the 911 turbo. Has different suspension & wheels & there's even a CLubsport version with rollcage, etc. It's a 911 turbo for the track. Look it up. But it can't beat its less powerful, less torquey NA little brother. Why?
BTW, this has nothing to do with BMW or MERc, just a theoretical question.
BTW, this has nothing to do with BMW or MERc, just a theoretical question.
Last edited by Jon200; Oct 11, 2004 at 10:06 PM.
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CLS55 AMG
Well, DUH....look at the bloody test results, mate!
One: the GT3 is 77Kg lighter, and has a stiffer suspension, it will carry more speed through the turns.
Two: the GT3 will also stop faster: click on the details tab for the page you linked to and compare the two cars' braking distances. The GT-3 goes from 200-0 Km/h in 4.7 seconds, whereas the GT-2 takes 5.0. Multiply that by the number of high-speed stops you'll be making on a race track, and that alone could explain the difference.
Three: the cars' weight/horsepower ratios are very close, so the GT-2's superior acceleration is not sufficient to outrun the GT-3.
In other words, if pure, brute acceleration was the sole determinant of a car's performance on the race track, then the SL65 would have the fastest 'ring times of any German car produced. But it won't, now will it? Because it's a heavy beast, at 4,300 pounds or so, and simply can't compete with the lighter Porsches in terms of braking and corner speeds. There's a reason why they try to shave weight off of race cars, in other words.
To summarize: physics still works.
And to try and twist this around into a simple argument about horsepower at higher RPMs, utterly ignoring the weight differences and braking performance differences of the two cars, demonstrates quite convincingly that you are either extremely intellectually dishonest, or quite ignorant of the physics of racing.
Furthermore, I love how when confronted with evidence which showed you were wrong, you simply change topics rather than admit it...which is what, after all, you've been doing ever since you came to this forum.
Two: the GT3 will also stop faster: click on the details tab for the page you linked to and compare the two cars' braking distances. The GT-3 goes from 200-0 Km/h in 4.7 seconds, whereas the GT-2 takes 5.0. Multiply that by the number of high-speed stops you'll be making on a race track, and that alone could explain the difference.
Three: the cars' weight/horsepower ratios are very close, so the GT-2's superior acceleration is not sufficient to outrun the GT-3.
In other words, if pure, brute acceleration was the sole determinant of a car's performance on the race track, then the SL65 would have the fastest 'ring times of any German car produced. But it won't, now will it? Because it's a heavy beast, at 4,300 pounds or so, and simply can't compete with the lighter Porsches in terms of braking and corner speeds. There's a reason why they try to shave weight off of race cars, in other words.
To summarize: physics still works.
And to try and twist this around into a simple argument about horsepower at higher RPMs, utterly ignoring the weight differences and braking performance differences of the two cars, demonstrates quite convincingly that you are either extremely intellectually dishonest, or quite ignorant of the physics of racing.
Furthermore, I love how when confronted with evidence which showed you were wrong, you simply change topics rather than admit it...which is what, after all, you've been doing ever since you came to this forum.
Originally Posted by M&M
Hey Improviz, let's dicsuss Porscche Gt2 vs GT3 for a minute. We can leave BMW & Merc out of this & make it theoretical. Horst van Saurma drove both cars & here's the times:
http://www.track-challenge.com/compa...ar1=71&Car2=39
Not the temperature difference was 1 degree celicius so that isn't a problem.
The Gt2 has 462hp vs Gt3's 381hp. GT2 has close to double the torque of the GT3 which should make up for the weight difference which is only 77kg.
But the GT2 laps the RIng in 7:46 vs 7:47. Bear in mind the Ring has log straights for the Gt2 to make up time.
Around the tighter Hockenheim circuit, the Gt2 does 1:12.6 while GT3 does 1:11.8. What they have the same body, same pro driver & even the same Pirelli P-Zero tyres. But the NA car wins. Why?
http://www.track-challenge.com/compa...ar1=71&Car2=39
Not the temperature difference was 1 degree celicius so that isn't a problem.
The Gt2 has 462hp vs Gt3's 381hp. GT2 has close to double the torque of the GT3 which should make up for the weight difference which is only 77kg.
But the GT2 laps the RIng in 7:46 vs 7:47. Bear in mind the Ring has log straights for the Gt2 to make up time.
Around the tighter Hockenheim circuit, the Gt2 does 1:12.6 while GT3 does 1:11.8. What they have the same body, same pro driver & even the same Pirelli P-Zero tyres. But the NA car wins. Why?
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Well, 77kg is nothing. Its the weight of a full tank of fuel. The Gt2 has almost DOUBLE the torque.
They have the same suspension & the GT2 has BIGGER brakes. They are both track versions of the regular Porsches. Don't give me that bull that the GT2 is a street car. Why did they take away the 4WD then? Go to the Porsche page & see what they say.
SO to recap, the weight diference is minimal, the GT2 has bigger brakes & same suspension, has 100hp more & double the torque.
So now tell me why the NA car wins?
They have the same suspension & the GT2 has BIGGER brakes. They are both track versions of the regular Porsches. Don't give me that bull that the GT2 is a street car. Why did they take away the 4WD then? Go to the Porsche page & see what they say.
SO to recap, the weight diference is minimal, the GT2 has bigger brakes & same suspension, has 100hp more & double the torque.
So now tell me why the NA car wins?
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From: Irvine, California
C32 AMG
Originally Posted by M&M
Well, 77kg is nothing. Its the weight of a full tank of fuel. The Gt2 has almost DOUBLE the torque.
They have the same suspension & the GT2 has BIGGER brakes. They are both track versions of the regular Porsches. Don't give me that bull that the GT2 is a street car. Why did they take away the 4WD then? Go to the Porsche page & see what they say.
SO to recap, the weight diference is minimal, the GT2 has bigger brakes & same suspension, has 100hp more & double the torque.
So now tell me why the NA car wins?
They have the same suspension & the GT2 has BIGGER brakes. They are both track versions of the regular Porsches. Don't give me that bull that the GT2 is a street car. Why did they take away the 4WD then? Go to the Porsche page & see what they say.
SO to recap, the weight diference is minimal, the GT2 has bigger brakes & same suspension, has 100hp more & double the torque.
So now tell me why the NA car wins?
cause too much torque actually handicaps a car in the corners.
but the C32/C55 is still faster in a straightline than the M3
BOOYAA
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From: Irvine, California
C32 AMG
77kg is still alot, thats like the difference between the weight of a C32/C55 and the M3.
M3 owners claim the M3 is sooo much lighter than the AMG, but now that we're talking about porsches 77kg isnt alot....
i see how it is
M3 owners claim the M3 is sooo much lighter than the AMG, but now that we're talking about porsches 77kg isnt alot....
i see how it is
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From: Irvine, California
C32 AMG
Originally Posted by M&M
SO you're saying that 100hp & 200lb/ft more is not enough to pull 77kg more weight?
im saying its harder to balancer heavier cars to make them handle well than it is to balance a lighter car and make that handle well
and the extra torque makes it easier for the rear tires to break out from under the car, which causes the car to lose traction, which makes it slower, which is why torque can actually hurt a car in the corners.
the GT2 has almost 80% more lbs of torque than the GT3, but it does not have 80% more traction, which is why the GT2's laptimes are not substantially better than the GT3, but actually slower.
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From: SOUTH AFRICA
Nothing
Originally Posted by M&M
AMGfanatic, I don't think your car is stock. But anyway, at Gerotek Sergio Jorge did 250 in a stock M3. 2ndly, if your 600m speed in 2km/h higher doesn't mean that you will be faster to that distance. And with the M3 losing 17% power to altitude I would expect more than a 2km/h (1.25mph) difference in trap speed over 1/2 mile.
But, if you are game, pitch up to Wesbank raceway this Sunday 17 October. My buddy with a C55 is coming. I will race you & get it on tape for everyone here to see. What say you?
But, if you are game, pitch up to Wesbank raceway this Sunday 17 October. My buddy with a C55 is coming. I will race you & get it on tape for everyone here to see. What say you?
Secondly : I was in Durban last week. My car pull much harder at sea level than up here - so I don't think the result would be any different.
Thirdly: I don't care to race you at Wesbank. As you yourself had said - you are an expert at drag racing - I have never done a drag race in my life. And also, I am going to Zwartkops on Saturday, Audi has invited me to be a driving instructor ib their cars for there customers.
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AMGganatic, Sergio did 250 at Gerotek in a STOCK E46 M3. Is in the results for Speed & Sound a year ago.
Mark Andrews did 250 in a CSL but he has done 248 in his stock M3 as well.
But like you say, you beat M3's, I beat C32's. It would be perfect to get the "champions" from each corner together, but I understand if you choose to decline.
Mark Andrews did 250 in a CSL but he has done 248 in his stock M3 as well.
But like you say, you beat M3's, I beat C32's. It would be perfect to get the "champions" from each corner together, but I understand if you choose to decline.
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From: MB - World
Originally Posted by M&M
Well, 77kg is nothing. Its the weight of a full tank of fuel. The Gt2 has almost DOUBLE the torque.
They have the same suspension & the GT2 has BIGGER brakes. They are both track versions of the regular Porsches. Don't give me that bull that the GT2 is a street car. Why did they take away the 4WD then? Go to the Porsche page & see what they say.
SO to recap, the weight diference is minimal, the GT2 has bigger brakes & same suspension, has 100hp more & double the torque.
So now tell me why the NA car wins?
They have the same suspension & the GT2 has BIGGER brakes. They are both track versions of the regular Porsches. Don't give me that bull that the GT2 is a street car. Why did they take away the 4WD then? Go to the Porsche page & see what they say.
SO to recap, the weight diference is minimal, the GT2 has bigger brakes & same suspension, has 100hp more & double the torque.
So now tell me why the NA car wins?
And I remember read from the EVO two years ago about the GT2, I don't think it has the same suspension set up as the GT3, Porsche wouldn't be foolish enough to have the same suspension setup with a car that is more powerful and has twice the torque of the GT3.
Because of its sheer torque and power, Porsche engineers gave the suspenions on the GT2 a more understeer-biased setting. The GT2 does not enter corners as like the GT3 does and that's why it doesn't handle as well as the GT3.
Yes, ur right, the GT2 was made to be a track car but Porsche hasn't done a very good job in the weight saving department, air-con, power windows, central locking, 4 air bags are still there.
The GT3 winning on the track isn't ALL ABOUT it being NA, Porsche hasn't pit as much track effort into the GT2 like they did with GT3
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From: MB - World
Originally Posted by IdriveFast
77kg is still alot, thats like the difference between the weight of a C32/C55 and the M3.
M3 owners claim the M3 is sooo much lighter than the AMG, but now that we're talking about porsches 77kg isnt alot....
i see how it is
M3 owners claim the M3 is sooo much lighter than the AMG, but now that we're talking about porsches 77kg isnt alot....
i see how it is
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Jon, please do me a favour. Go to the Porsche website & see what they say the difference between the turbo & GT2 is & why. And if they wanted understeer, they could have left in the 4WD. The suspension is different but it is tuned for the track. The fact that it has no PSM should be a clue as to what the GT2 was designed for.
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From: MB - World
Originally Posted by M&M
Jon, please do me a favour. Go to the Porsche website & see what they say the difference between the turbo & GT2 is & why. And if they wanted understeer, they could have left in the 4WD. The fact that it has no PSM should be a clue as to what the GT2 was designed for.
Where in my last post did I say the GT2 wasn't AT ALL for the track? I was simply trying to suggest why the GT3 wins when it is up against the GT2 which also happens to be your so-called NA vs turbo on the track argument
They have the same suspension
The suspension is different but it is tuned for the track.
torque means jack all
Unfortunately, 100% of magazines all over the world (incl US mags) agree that the M3 is quicker. Check it out.
that isn't 100% of all car mags already
but what you clean forgot to mention is that in Australia you only get the SMG
Can you see the directions you have taken with your arguments now? They get nowhere and once ur beaten, u move on to another small window and blow it off from there where u'll eventually get beaten again
had enough fun with you, good luck in whatever ur trying to defend in your next post
Last edited by Jon200; Oct 12, 2004 at 11:12 PM.
