Hoyt Clagwell

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2005/moto..._usa/todt.html has an article from Jean Todt.

In a nutshell, he said he was never involved in the compromise decisions with the FIA, although he would not have voted for the chicane. He did talk to Bernie about the chicane, but it wasn't Bernie's decision to make.

He was against the chicane for lots of reasons - lack of testing, gear ratios, tyres, etc...

He mentioned if Bridgestone teams had asked for special considerations (e.g. to help Bridgestone be more competitive in qualifying) that "everybody would laugh at us".

It's a long article, but if you want to hear about the story from the other side, it's worth the read.

Hoyt Clagwell

That would have been an interesting solution. As long as there was some kind of blend line to keep fast cars away from slower cars, I might have agreed to that one.


IMO, This is so stupid, I can't believe it was seriously considered. A totally ridiculous solution, penalizing Ferrari for being prepared and abiding by the rules. If this were the solution, I doubt we would ever see a Ferrari in any race against any of the Michelin teams or principals again in any race series or venue. Since I believe the team with the most supporters is Ferrari, this would devastate the commercial viability of the sport for at least several years. Even the other sponsors MB, BMW, Honda, Toyota would be massively hurt, and probably pull or reduce their budgets for F1.

F1 could lose a big team like McLaren or Williams and F1 would still survive with a sizable audience. Lose Ferrari, however, and F1 is on life support.

JMHO

edited: Now I understand why the last proposal was seriously considered. It was the breakaway teams that came up with the idea that would have made Ferrari leave. Of course they would want F1 to be severely or mortally wounded in hopes it would mean the survival of their own series. duh. politics, politics, politics.

lars

My thanks Jim for the Paul Stoddart post, and to Hoyt for the link to Jean Todt's interview.

"I feel sorry about what happened, but I mainly feel sorry for all the supporters who were here, for the American supporters, for the TV viewers but it was not our decision." part of the Todt interview

Let me share with you how much of this race I actually saw. I live in BC, where the race was scheduled on TSN (The Sports Network) for 9 PM, tape-delayed so as not to interfere with coverage of the US Open and Game 5 of the NBA finals. The US GP was scheduled for 9-11 PM, to be followed at 11 by a tape-delayed Champ car race from Cleveland. At 9 PM, Game 5 of the NBA finals was still underway, having gone into overtime. It took over 20 minutes to play the last 4 minutes-something of overtime, and we joined "regular programming in progress" a bit before 9:25. Imagine my surprise: the post race interviews were underway. Then a commercial break. Then the uninformative race highlights, followed, at 9:30 (a full hour and half ahead of schedule) by the Champ car race. So total coverage of the US GP, including commercials, lasted a bit less than 10 minutes! 'Nuff said about TSN's view of the race.

I agree with Todt's position that installing a chicane for the race with no chance for the drivers to test is a ridiculous notion, asking for trouble. Yes, I suppose another practice session could have been added at serious disruption to the schedule, but I also support the FIA's view that they would have created a huge legal liability by not following their own rules and procedures.

I also agree that things look to have become personal in management of the FIA and FOM. Sadly we have another illustration here that decisions based on personal feelings have a good chance of going bad.

glojo

FINALLY we are getting to see the true colours of the contributors to this thread. How dare anyone speak out against Ferrari, they are beyond reproach. The icon of true sportsmanship!!!!!

What a load of tosh!!!

I hate to be blunt, but we are NOT the authority on Formula One, the United States has for a few short years (comparitively speaking) hosted Formula One races and one day we might see a Formula One race on a proper Formula One circuit in the United States.

Ferrari do at present hold the World Championships both as constructors and driver and have done for a number of years, but in the history of Formula One we regularly see one manufacturer leading the way. this is nothing special. I am NOT an authority on Formula One, I am merely a fan. I have no leanings towards anyone manufacturer, nor driver. However I am most certainly not a Ferrari fan, nor a fan of shumacher. It is fashionable for Ferrari fans to criticise ANYONE that dares to be honest and say things are wrong, but enough is enough. For to long this attitude has been tolerated at the cost of lowering the value of this wonderful formulae.

Ferrari have set the standard for the last few years, this cannot be denied, but where were they during the dominance of Williams? where were they during the dominance of Mclaren? where were they during the dominance of Lotus? During all these years Formula One was exciting, entertaining and FRIENDLY. Drivers used to laugh and joke with each other, winning was everything but the camaraderie amongst them all was clear to see . The post race evening party would really see the teams let their hair down. It was only a few years ago this ended and it was brilliant to see Damon Hill and Eddie Jordan still carrying on that once great tradition. These last few years we have seen none of that. Do all you very sporting Ferrari lovers remember Damon Hill? (He was the driver schumacher rammed to prevent Hill from becoming World Champion babble, babble ) I won't mention Jacque Villeneuve

Now this last week-end, the Ferrari lovers scream foul!!! Yes they are clearly right. Michelin were as usual honest. That is not a word you will find in any Ferrari dictionary!! h-o-n-e-s-t (babble, babble)

Now I totally 100% accept Ferrari had the right to object to any proposal put forward by ANY other team. They were 100% correct to object to any compromise put forward to allow a proper competitive race.

I have looked at the rules and would appreciate ANY post that can advise me of a LAWFUL solution. All the ideas put forward contravene one regulation or other.

Clearly contributors to this thread are too lazy (I might be a bit OTT here, and I'm sure you have really looked up the regulations) surrounding this excellent Formula, so I will post the very latest 2005 amended regulatios that apply to this topic:

SUPPLY OF TYRES IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP AND TYRE LIMITATION DURING THE EVENT
73) Supply of tyres :
a) Any tyre company wishing to supply tyres to Formula One teams must notify the FIA of its intention to do so no later than 1 January preceding the year during which such tyres will be supplied.
Any tyre company wishing to cease the supply of tyres to Formula One teams must notify the FIA of its intention to do so no later than 1 January of the year preceding that in which such tyres were to be supplied.

b) No tyre may be used in the Championship unless the company supplying such tyre accepts and adheres to the following conditions :

- one tyre supplier present in the Championship : this company must equip 100% of the entered
teams on ordinary commercial terms ;

[B]- two tyre suppliers present : each of them must, if called upon to do so, be prepared to equip up to 60% of the entered teams on ordinary commercial terms ;[/B] (couldn't find Ferrari red )

- three or more tyre suppliers present : each of them must, if called upon to do so, be prepared to equip up to 40% of the entered teams on ordinary commercial terms ;

- each tyre supplier must undertake to provide no more than two specifications of dry-weather tyre to each team at each Event, each of which must be of one homogenous compound. Any modification or treatment, other than heating, carried out to a tyre or tyres will be considered a change of specification ;

- each tyre supplier must undertake to provide no more than one specification of wet-weather tyre at each Event which must be of one homogenous compound ;

- each tyre supplier must undertake to provide no more than one specification of extreme-weather tyre at each Event which must be of one homogenous compound ;

- if, in the interests of maintaining current levels of circuit safety, the FIA deems it necessary to reduce tyre grip, it shall introduce such rules as the tyre suppliers may advise or, in the absence of advice which achieves the FIA's objectives, specify the maximum permissible contact areas for front and rear tyres.


74) Quantity and type of tyres :
a) During the Event no driver may use more than four sets of dry-weather tyres, (is this a closer colour? )
four sets of wet weather tyres and three sets of extreme-weather tyres.
If a driver change is made during an Event the tyres allocated to the original driver must be used by the new driver.

From the four sets of dry-weather tyres each driver will be allocated two sets of differing specification for use on the first day of practice.

For the purposes of the above a set of tyres will be deemed to comprise two front and two rear tyres of the same specification. Before 08.00 on the second day of practice each driver must nominate which specification of tyre he will use for the remainder of the Event. However, if both free practice sessions on the first day of practice are declared wet this decision may be deferred until 12.00.

Unless the use of wet or extreme-weather tyres is necessary one of the remaining unused sets of dry-weather tyres must be used for the qualifying session, all reconnaissance laps and the entire race. Unless a precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a race. No refuelling will be permitted whilst a car is in the pits for the purposes of changing a tyre.
**********************************************

Yes Ferrari were right to appeal, but for the good of the sport NOT for the good of Ferrari, a race could still have happened. Jean Todt was right to make his ‘excuses’ about the chicane, he should be heard and his opinion respected. The other NINE teams have the same right. Paul Stoddard has as much right to be heard. Paul Stoddard might be operating on a comparative shoestring, but he has the same rights as any other team owner. No more, no less.

Ferrari would be missed if they pulled out, but by crikey the moral of the other nine teams would soar, the friendly rivalry would return and Ferrari would be remembered as much as BRM!! How many here have heard of BRM? Look it up, or Raymond May.

Ferrari MIGHT be the most supported Formula One team in the US (I have no idea on that) They are the most supported team in Italy, but Formula One is what gets supported elsewhere. Germany at present would have a large Ferrari following, but when schumacher drove for Benneton do you seriously believe Germans supported Ferrari? Let us all try to have a constructive debate where individual favouritism is perhaps put on the back burner. I admit to perhaps coming over as ‘anti’ Ferrari, but that is solely because they are being put into the FIA box. I will keep saying this. I respect the right of Ferrari to make any objection, but all you Ferrari supporters keep forgetting or deliberately ignoring the fact, I say fact because nowhere have I found conflicting evidence, NINE other teams voted for a chicane. Two of these teams had Bridgestone tyres. Nine teams wanted to race on a circuit with a chicane, one team did not. Let Ferrari throw its toys out of the pram, let Ferrari pack its bags, then bring the full force of the FIA into play and prosecute Ferrari for failing to race.

Michelin are clearly, clearly guilty of not having a suitable tyre. Are you Ferrari lovers saying the seven teams should have raced with these tyres, or raced on a different circuit to Ferrari Unbelievable!!!

Now PLEASE tell me a fairer solution that is sensible and has the blessing of experts ie retired Formula One World Champions (not just any of us that are contributing to this excellent forum)

Sorry to be so repetitive, but the penny is NOT dropping and no one is accepting that NINE teams wanted to race on a circuit with a chicane NINE

I will throw Sir Jackie Stewart’s contribution into the pot.

Any form of crisis management requires a compromise," he explained. "I believe that the United States Grand Prix should have taken place in the proper way. For that to have happened, you would have needed a chicane to be put in place. There was plenty of time to do that, and the governing body has to be open to some kind of compromise when faced with unique or unusual situations like that - especially in that part of the world. F1 cannot afford too many days like this."

http://formula1.skysports.com/list.a...el=formula_one

Regards,
John

Hoyt Clagwell

John,
Careful with that axe, John, about calling me a Ferrari fan from reading a supports comment. My supporters comment is based on TV coverage of the spectators where I usually see more red in the stands than any other individual team colours. Therefore my comment about the team with the most supporters, which I used to try and say how many potential customers/viewers will be lost if Ferrari would leave the sport, which would affect the commercial viability of the sport. I didn't say most supporters are Ferrari fans, I said "I believe the team with the most supporters is Ferrari" -- notice the difference?

If Ferrari doesn't have the most team supporters internationally, who does? If you say "Ferrari", can I say I'm seeing your true colours? No. So you really don't know who I support, except since I'm on this board it gives you a clue. Then again, I may not support any team and just be someone who likes to watch good racing that I picked up while living in Middx many, many years ago.

I have tried, and I believe I have stayed unbiased. I think rules are rules and preparedness should not be penalized by those who are unprepared. Unfortunately I think this whole mess of attempted compromising is politically motivated. If Michelin had properly done their sums, none of this would matter.

Hoyt

glojo

Absolutely one thousand per cent agree.

Regarding Ferrari,
I haven't a real clue on how well they are supported. Formula One is never static, as I mentioned previously who on this forum have heard of BRM? The first real British Formula One world Championship winning car.

Lotus.... They really have done far more than Ferrari, I say this with the greatest of respect to Ferrari, but remember Jim Clark and the Indianapolis 500? Titchy tiny rear engined Formula 1 car vs the might of the big engined US 'trucks' Lotus have raced a four wheel drive car, I think they have also tried a gas turbine. They were Formula One.

Brabham?? Not such a racing icon, but still a championship winning car.

Spain has never been a Formula One racing nation if you compare attendances with Motor Gp, but this season was either a sell out, or close to it because a Spanish driver is doing well in a Renault??

Silverstone will be a sell out because I suppose Jenson Button is doing moderately okay!! (He was doing better last year)

I find it very difficult to answer your question because it would involve me generalising on people opinions, but if I were pushed I would tactfully say we tend to support drivers, more than teams. I really enjoyed Nigel Mansell's style of driving, he drove for Lotus, Ferrari and Williams. I loved watching him throw the Ferrari about, another of my all time favourites was Gilles Villenueve who sadly did not get the oppurtunity to become a World Champion, but then I think of Jochen Rindt driving a Lotus, but none really competed with Ayrton Senna. He was 95% the complete ultimate package. I dock him marks because of the way he took out Alain Prost in Japan. In Formula One it is not about records of how many championships a specific driver wins because some years the cars are more equal, so points are shared out amongst the differing drivers. When Prost, Mansell and Senna were racing, they were racing in different make cars that were fairly equal in performance, so it was down to the skill of the driver, but we had the years of Williams where only a Williams had a chance of winning, then the years of Ferrari (with Benetton in between). Hopefully we are going to see a new era??

Amongst todays drivers I look at Juan Montoya, but he has problems??? I say that with the greatest of respect to the man, but he is at present his own worst enemy. Ron Dennis will not put up with drivers that do not fulfill their potential. Mark Webber seems to have gone slightly off the boil, I thought he had a lot of unleashed talent. Alonso is doing well with Renault crikey I'm rambling away.

So to sum up, I feel that Formula One would not miss any one single team for very long. Don't forget BMW are now making an appearance which will really prove interesting. The Mclaren Mercedes-Benz vs the Sauber BMW?? I wonder how it will be named? BMW are the major share-holder yet Sauber are still involved. Interesting!!

The Italians love their motor sports, it is the land of legends who here has heard of the Grand Prix cars of Alfa-Romeos and Maseratis they have gone into the big garage in the sky and are certainly not missed?? They love Ferrari, but I am sure if Ferrari disappeared they would quickly get behind the best Italian driver. I say this because you simply look at Motor Gp which has a HUGE following in Italy. The two Italian riders of note are my super hero Valentino Rossi and Max Biaggi. Rossi rides a Yamaha, Max rides a Honda, the Italian Ducati motor cycle competes in this championship with an Italian rider (Loris Capirossi) but he does not have the following of these two riders.

I fear for Formula One and I cannot see how it will survive without heads rolling?

In all fairness I cannot see how ANY of the car teams can be blamed for this week-ends shambles, I would place 70% on Michelin and 30% on the FIA for simply failing to realise the seriousness of the problem, then for NOT rectifying it. I am NOT blaming anyone else and I would love to see all the attending fans get their money back, plus I would like to see the American venue changed. It is not a proper circuit, it is a play thing in the middle and one side of an oval type circly circle What is Laguna Seca like? Is that suitable for Formula One cars?

Take care, and have a really nice day
John

KOMPRESSORnSC

There is an interesting Q & A on the FIA site this morning. Q & A with Max Mosley

I can't fault the FIA at all. Michelin's problem and they dealt with it as they saw fit. What if one of the engine manufacturers kept blowing oil lines at max revs in top gear and it was sending their cars into the wall? Should the FIA install a chicane so they don't blow the line? No. There are areas of every track where the limit of the car is tested. Watch qualifying and then a race and watch how much more they use the curbing in qualifying. Why? Becasue they know they would crash / break the car if they did it over and over again in a race.

As far as Indy...
F1 would not have a chance to survive in the US if it wasn't held at Indy. Indy in itself is part of the draw, especailly for the International fans. And it is a great track-probably one of the best (especailly for fans) in all of F1. Show me another track where you can sit in the stands across from the grid to watch the start, watch them go by at 215 mph for a few laps, get up, walk to the infield section (5 minutes), watch them go throgh turns 1-6 from 20-30 feet away, walk over to the backstretch (3 minute walk) and stand 20 feet away while they go through 3 gears on their way to 175+ mph and then brake for a 90 degree turn. And with Foster's tents everywhere you walk!

BTW-I've been to all 4 1/2 USGP's @ Indy, and 20+ 500's, so I may be a little biased toward Indy.

glojo

Hi Kompressor,
You have answered your own question and I agree with you.

However we are as usual giving examples that bear no relevance to this specific incident. Seven teams, fourteen cars had life endandering problems. Would you say tough! Its your problem and then accept the legal and financial resposibility of that decision?

This is a sport (or entertainment) No one wants to see serious accidents or deaths. The organisers must always have a prime responsibility of preserving life!

Regarding cars going round in circles so the audience can see all the cars, all the time, is indeed an advantage. This really, really saddens me though and is again a cultural major difference, that was never what Formula One was ever about. Entertainment is dragging Formula One down to that sorry level. (Nothing wrong with that concept for US racing) Look at all the great European circuits and the designers, drivers would turn in their graves at the very thought of your idea of a Formula One track. Spa, Nurburgring, Monza.

I am not criticising the American oval type racing, it is attracting crowds in the thousands (hundreds of thousands??) I have no real knowledge of it plain and simple, Please do NOT read my post as criticising US racing in any shape form or fashion.

If ever you come over to Europe try to get a 'taxi' around the Nurburring

Taxi's are BMW M3's or M5's and go like the proverbial **** off a shovel. They are definitely NOT taxi's

Whoops got to go, but thanks for the observations,
John

Hoyt Clagwell

Interesting, I had thought Brits would support a team from the UK, Italians supporting the Italian teams, etc. Countries that didn't have a team would follow a driver from their country, and countries without any teams/drivers would follow Ferrari more so than any other team. I still see a lot of red and Ferrari flags in the stands. Perhaps the Italians tend to travel more. I had always thought MS' skills as a driver were respected, but not well liked.

The last driver I supported regardless of the team was Graham Hill. But I didn't particularly care for Damon. Go figure.

I don't follow MotoGP, so the information on the best Italian riders using non-Italian bikes is amusing. Lots of euros must be involved in that decision.


I tend to agree, but I think it would take the longest to recover if Ferrari left.


The old codger in me says bring back Watkins Glen. I believe all the America road courses, including Laguna Seca, would need some significant and expensive upgrading to meet FIA standards. Tony George was the guy with the deepest pockets, and Indy has the capacity for the spectators.


Have a great day in Torquay

Hoyt

Hoyt Clagwell

What was your take on the fans reaction? TV showed a few throwing bottles onto the track. How would you compare the rowdy F1 fans to the NA$CAR fans that threw trash on a track last year?

Nola

Run what you brung. If what you brung can't run, then don't. Anyone who understands racing (not just spectating) knows this to be true. Fundamentally, the M-team brought the wrong equipment and had to forfeit. The FIA took exactly the right approach, and Ferrari was totally right to run and win.

However, because there is a lot of money involved, things are not that simple. F1 sporting regulations mandate that a team not planning to participate should advise the stewards 45 minutes before the start so that the list of participants can be updated and the public can be informed. If this had been done, the starting grid would be only 6 cars and the GP would have to be cancelled or delayed, with the ensuing refund for fans.

It could be argued that the paying fans were decieved because even though 14 cars had no intention to race, they took the formation lap anyway just to fill contractual obligations, call it a race, and avoid a refund.

So in terms of sport, the right thing happened. In terms of business, they're in deep doo doo.

KOMPRESSORnSC

There were only a couple things thrown on the track (one from Tower Terrace made famous by TV). it was not a big issue.

Fans who were leaving walked out in stunned silence. It was eerie. Nobody talked, nobody said anything. People just left with a sad look on their face. It was like everyone was so confused they didn't know what to do. Keep in mind that those of us in the stands had NO idea what was going on excpet that the Michelin drivers pulled in after the formation lap-and that was just becase we could see the monitors.

I was worried when I was leaving though. Walking to our car down 16th street, they were bringing in the heavy armored SWAT vehicles (3 of them) in the back side of the track. I think the were expecting a riot and got stunned silence.

glojo

Hi Hoyt,
Thanks for the very informative replies. First off this is a transcript of an interview with Max Moseley. You can see how professional he is, and how persuasive his arguement is. Sadly when you read transcripts from Bernie Ecclestone, Jean Todt, and Paul Stoddard you can see just how clever they are, but there are discrepancies and passing the buck all the way through.

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press...20605-01.html#

Each transcript will lean me one way then the other. This is clearly the most professional, but he has had the longest time to get his story straight.


Graham Hill was everything the Formula One driver should be. A hard working mechanic that worked his way to the top. He was not the most skilful of drivers, but what he lacked in finesse, he made up for in bravery. He really shone when Jim Clark sadly died, Clark was part of a car and drove not just vwith skill, but sympathy towards the machinery, this combination was unbeatable. I still laugh just thinking about Graham. He actually had a walk on part in the film 'Grand Prix'. He 'hammed up' his acting and deliberately made himself look silly. Damon the son was always aware of his fathers great acheivements and deliberately chose motorcycle racing just to prove he could make the grade without any help. This theory did not quite work out because Damon could race cars faster than he could race bikes!!

He quickly made his way into the leading F1 team (Williams) and Mansell spoke very highly of him and recommended he be taken on as a full time driver. I don't like running drivers down, but suffice it to say a lot of dirty tricks were used on Damon Hill to try and break his character, but he eventually got to be the World Champion. At Silverstone he would always be part of a 'band' or what I call a pop group, a nice bloke although a bit shy.

Motor Gp is breath taking. American Superbike, World Superbike, or British Superbike are tame compared to this sport. It is without doubt the two wheeled formula one but of the old school. There is a race this week-end and if you get the chance I recommend you watch it. Colin Edwars the American ex World Super Bike Champion and someone I really rate, is the team mate of Valentino Rossi, but Rossi is in a completely different league to anyone. This man is everything a World Champion should be. a diplomat, an excellent ridr and someone with an unbelievable sense of humour. One year on the slowing down lap, he stopped at one of the portable toilets and actually went inside. (The toilet was 'convienantly get it!! placed there by a stooge)

We Europeans (how I hate that term) appreciate the bravery of the individual as oppesed to the team that employs them. It is possible that Jenson Button will be going to Williams next year, and Honda may follow. His followers will change their allegiance from BAR and support him in the Williams.


I will buzz off now because I have talked too much.

Regards,
John

glojo

Sorry forgot to answer this question. I am on morphine medication and it has kicked in so sorry about any spelling mistakes.

I can sympathise with the anger that was clearly shown by the fans. Throwing obstacles onto a track is never the mos sensibkle of acts, but at Siverstone we have had a drunken or mentally disturbed Irishman stage aone man demonstration. Plus I think it happened elsewhere. I only saw a couple of cans and noted that Rubens actually run one over which could have caused a puncture.

What I find half amusing from a purely English point of view was the post that refers to three SWAT!!!! vans. That is no doubt to shoot Bernie Ecclestone or perhaps Paul Stoddard??

No doubt some might have read my link to Max Moseley and have a few words to say. It will be interesting because He is going to be judge and jury at the Inquiry yet he has already gone public!!! Does make me wonder??

Bye again,
John

Hoyt Clagwell

No matter how much time he had, as long as it's the whole truth. I doubt he would spin anything because if he were found out, the results would be devastating to him personally.

When the conversation is good, informative and intelligent, one can never have talked too much.

I echo your comments on Graham.

The meeting in a week's time will be most interesting.

Saprissa

Nola

MB-BOB

glojo has offered some recollection of the 1994 Spanish GP. Following the tragic death of Ayrton Senna, Roland Ratzenberger, and a fan at Imola, the race organizers erected a temporary chicane out of tyres to reduce the speed of the cars. We believe the chicane was built after practice.

***The configuration of the Catalunya track has remained largely unchanged since it was introduced. In 1994, during the safety panic following the deaths of Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger, a temporary tyre chicane was introduced at Campsa to slow the cars before Nissan.****

Beyond providing this bit of information, just one among many precedents that would have allowed the FIA/FOM/teams to reach a compromise, I am pretty fed up with this whole discussion. I've read the FIA's litany of answers to questions posed to Max Mosley on their site, FIA Q/As-Excuses Volume 23 and it all sounds like a pack of whiney spins just as pitiful as Michelin's, the teams or anyone else's.

At the end of the day, I know of only one party that governs... the fans. The fans pay for everything, and are the economic engine that makes it happen. **** them off, and they can easily spend their entertainment money elsewhere. If enough of them do, the sport will suffer, and all groups party to the show will have no one to blame but themselves.

Witness the slow death of the CART series here in America following the aborted race at Texas Motor Speedway several years ago. This series is now all but dead... the fans have turned away as fast as the major teams have turned to the dark side (IRL), and the major TV networks now shun the series. One has to work to find a CART race on TV these days. RIP. and the same for F1 if they don't wake up immediately.

MB-BOB

...And by the way. I find this discussion about "official" versus "unofficial" races to be hilarious...

F1 is the inventor of this dichotomy in racing for points, or not. For the first three+ decades of the modern F1 era, the formula has staged countless "official" races along with non-points paying "unofficial" races in virtually every season. They have done this (throughout a simpler, non-political era) because Bernie and crew wanted to build a fan base by providing "the show" more venues to raise more money, and to recognize fan requests for more races.

What a refreshing thought...

Hoyt Clagwell

I vaguely remember the Indy 500 was a non-points F1 race way back a long time ago asa way to showcase some of their cars. I could be wrong, though what with my bad memory and all.

glojo

Hi Hoyt,
I think you can perhaps remember Lotus coming across to participate, with Jim Clark an absolutely brilliant Formula One driver. There has never been Formula One cars actually taking part in the race itself. The car that Clark raced from memory was very much a one off customized vehicle. Testing my memory to its frail limits my hero worshipping mind thinks he displayed the number '82' but I could be wrong.

*****For decades the preserve of front-engined roadsters (in essence, oversized dirt-track cars), the Indianapolis 500 had at times during the 1950s been included as a round of the World Championship but none of the European teams had thought the race worth contesting with the cars they were using.

As in all things, someone's curiosity got the better of them. In this case it was John Cooper and Jack Brabham. The year was 1961 and Brabham was invited to try a specially modified Cooper Formula One chassis, fitted with an over-bored Coventry Climax FPF of 2.75 litres. A.J. Foyt declared the Cooper a "bunch of tubes held together with chicken wire" and loudly stated he would never drive one. In motor racing it pays never to say never...*****



*** In 1963 Lotus arrived at the 'brickyard' with three cars; one for Clark, one for Gurney, and a spare. Chapman and Gurney had gone to Ford for an engine and a modified, aluminium-block Fairlane V8 was fitted. The Lotus 29 was a larger version of the Grand Prix 25. Power was 80bhp down on the Offenhauser fours (a magnificent engine, by any measure) but the Lotus was another example of Chapman 'building lightness', bettering the roadsters on the scales by as much as 450 pounds.*****

So you can see the cars were European 'style' with larger, more rugged engines'

Do you remember I mentioned the contribution Lotus made to Formula One?

This is a very informative link that shows just how cutting edge they were, and it can be argued they were easily as popular as Ferrari, if not even more so.

http://www.lotuscars.com/history/firsts/firsts.html

Your memory is certainly half right in so far as one or two 'active' F1 drivers managed to compete in between their commitments, but the race itself would have destroyed the small high revving engines.

Regards,

John

Hoyt Clagwell

Hi John,

This is what clouded my mind years ago. Now I'm showing my age. oops. I gleaned the following from the following link:
http://www.formula1.com/race/news/859/32.html

"The Indianapolis 500 was part of the Formula One world championship from 1950 to 1960. However, it was virtually unheard of for the regular Formula One teams or drivers to make the trip to the States to compete in what was such a specialised race. "

Graham won the '66 race which unfortunately had a horrific crash.

glojo

He cetainly did Because of the accident, if I remember correctly, there was confusion on who actually won, but the records show who won and that is all that counts.

The Cooper was really responsible for introducing this 'moden' design of single seat racing into your magnificient country.

John

MB-BOB

Here's a website with the classification list for all Indy 500 finishes 1960-70

http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1960-69.html#1963

In 1963, Clark finished 2nd in his rookie season in the #92 Lotus. Dan Gurney finished 7th in the #93 Lotus.

In 1964, neither Clark (#6) nor Gurney (#12) finished the race, dropping out in laps 47 and 110, respectively.

In 1965, Clark, in the #82 Lotus, won the race going away. Unknown teammate Bobby Johns, finished 7th in the #83. Gurney fielded his first of the now famous series of All American Racers, in a Lotus/Yamaha Special privateer (curiously running the Ford engine) car #17 that dropped out on lap 42 in 26th place.

These Lotus cars were more F1 cars than not, albeit modified and strengthend for the 500 mile races. The most distinguishing feature on these cars were the Left-turn bias suspensions, the car weight balance offset to the Left with shorter left side suspension components. Even the 1968 "wedge" car was a Lotus design used in Europe in GP trim.

Oddly, 1965 marked the rookie debuts of three drivers who when on to glory: Mario Andretti, Al Unser Sr., and Gordon Johncoc-k (damn the word filter).

In 1966, Graham Hill and Jimmy Clark finished 1-2, although Clark was the only one in a Lotus factory car (#19 STP Special).

Amazingly, the Lotus cars of this era were more F1 cars than not. They WERE modified for oval track use, the most distinguishing feature being the left-turn bias suspension, the weight balance shifted to the left by assymetrical suspension arms... longer on the right, shorter on the left. Even the 1968 Lotus "Wedge" car was the same as used in Europe, although the Indy car had the turbine engine and the European car the first gen Cosworth Ford.

Altogether a simpler time, when innovation in race car engineering was encouraged.

lars

Yes, well Bernie Ecclestone's hold only goes back to the late 70's. Coincidentally, 1978, the last year Lotus won the constructors championship, was the year he took over FOCA.