That's for sure.

 

Agreed. We all know how long it takes to test & develop new technology on these cars.

 

Honestly, you believe this?

 

I don't think we will ever know the answer to that, Couhlan is probably the only one to know.

To judge whether McLaren used information or not, doesn't necessarily imply that McLaren will use exactly the same part as it is described in the document. All an engineer needs is an idea, based on that he can develop a different version to do exaclty the same thing or even better. In addition to that, in this sport, knowing the strangths and weaknesses of your opponent is enough to give you an edge. Furthermore, I believe that 3 months (approx time Couhlan in his possesion the Ferrari documents) in F1 is a lot of time to do a lot of modifications to the cars, just think of how many tests/improvements the teams did since the beginning of the season in mid-March.

I don't think that McLaren's high ranking officials knew about this though, Couhlan wouldn't have left those documents at his house if it was otherwise plus Ron Dennis doesn't strike me as a cheater, quite the contrary he seems like a very descent man.

 

For aero modelling, absolutely. A CNC machine can spit out a 1/4 scale aero model in minutes. All that is needed is data. And to reiterate, these cars are so much alike today it's funny. Copycatting occurs all the time. The age of innovation in F1 died 10 years ago. Even the rules dictate the cars conform to a formula that discouraged innovation.

 

McLaren (accepting that Couhlan was a McLaren employee) admitted to have received secret material. Did Ron Dennis have the secret material ? No.
Did the knowledge of this operation of espionage arrive at the top level of McLaren ? YES, but not the Ferrari data itself, only the fact that individual espionage had occurred.


"McLaren accepts the that the FIA World Motor Sport Council had no
alternative other than to find that there was a purely technical
breach by reason of the possession of certain information by one
individual at his home, without McLaren's knowledge or authority."

 

It takes two to tango guys

Anyways, I'm 110% sure if it was the other way around... you guys would be lived...so really i don't care for Maca fans opinion, theirs plenty of other Maca fanatics on F1 board who believe their team should be punished...some have more values then others ...



Ferrari clarifies it's position: creates a timeline of events regarding the F1 spy
Twenty four hours on from the World Council's surprising decision which provoked so much discussion, as can be seen simply from looking at those sent to our Internet site, Ferrari CEO Jean Todt chose to reflect in the cold light of day on everything that has taken place. "I am bitter about it: what happened yesterday is serious. On the one hand a verdict of guilt was handed down and on the other, no sanctions were imposed. I cannot understand it," reaffirmed Todt.

"During yesterday's meeting, the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney. Some of this data was used to prepare a clarification request submitted to the FIA, aimed clearly at us, given that throughout the Melbourne weekend, McLaren team principal and his closest colleagues made statements in which they threw doubt over "some cars." Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours. It is important to underline that the information used to try and damage Ferrari through the FIA might be only a part of the information received by McLaren. In an attempt to justify its actions, McLaren has tried to claim the immunity normally accorded to a whistleblower in some legal systems. But it should be noted that usually, an informant or whistleblower goes to the competent authority to denounce something, whereas in this case he went to Ferrari's main rival who, and it is not us who say this but the FIA, took great care not to mention that the information was obtained in this way.

Let us move on. McLaren has confirmed that it has had to install a firewall to prevent further information from Stepney from reaching the team in the form of documents. Furthermore, Coughlan has been asked to tell the very same Stepney to stop sending him information. It is a shame that before this, Coughlan asked him for information on our brake balance system, then went to lunch with him in Spain, before calmly returning home with 780 pages of designs, diagrams, data and a whole lot more - as stated by the FIA release - with which to design, develop run and race a 2007 Ferrari Formula 1 car. As confirmed in that decision yesterday, the violation was already there in the simple possession of the information, which in itself constitutes an enormous advantage in a sport like Formula 1. In Ferrari's opinion, it is like playing a hand of poker with a rival who already knows what cards you are holding.

It remains incomprehensible that apart from possession, one must also demonstrate the effective and visible use of this information on the McLaren car. Actually, this very same fact, on the basis of available information which the FIA used to find McLaren guilty, shows that the offence lies in the possession without the need to prove anything else. The proof is there and this led to the FIA's decision. Therefore I find it difficult to understand how the verdict makes sense. Furthermore, I have to say that the proof of effective use requested by the FIA is impossible for Ferrari to furnish, because of course, Ferrari does not have access to the McLaren car."

Todt further added this piece of behind the scenes background: "A few weeks after the race in Melbourne, the McLaren team principal proposed that we should reach a sort of agreement to establish a better relationship between our two teams, thus avoiding any future denunciations to the sporting authority. I replied that I found it impossible to believe him, because on several occasions we had seen that certain commitments had always been disregarded by McLaren. There was an exchange of views and, believing in their good faith, I agreed to sign this agreement on 9 June last. Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the e-mails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us. So, on the one hand, they had come to say "let us trust one another," and on the other they were hiding serious facts such as those just stated above, but making no effort to inform us as would have been in the spirit and to the letter of our agreement.

"Finally, it should be noted that yesterday's meeting was not an appearance before a tribunal, but a meeting of the FIA World Council, at which only McLaren was asked to respond to accusations and in which we were present only as observers. Therefore there was no possibility to play an active role as we would have wished. I was only able to ask a few questions and reply to some, but we were not able to present our case nor the documents to support it.

"This decision remains very disappointing and surprising. It is not acceptable to create a precedent in such an important case in which the guilty verdict for serious and persistent violation of the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not automatically incur a penalty. For our part, we will press on with the legal actions currently taking place in Italy and in England and we do not rule out taking further action."

 

Yes, aero can be copied (to a point) and some ideas can be copied. Having a 700 page blueprint goes way beyond building a part from a picture. Besides, aero is what evolves the most... its a philosophy. Knowing an outline of this philosophy is a tremendous advantage. Again, if what you believe is that having a blueprint of competitors car gives no more advantage than walking the pitlane then I totally disagree with you.

 

It's over guys, no need arguing it anymore. Let's get back to racing.

 

It's over ? it has just begun !
Of course as a Maca fan you would like it to be over
but in reality sa Jean said, this is just the begining

Oh and about the Racing part, yeah 1-2 next week for Ferrari
close in on the CC and DC

 

As with any decision rendered by a duly appointed (and agreed upon) sanctioning body, there are those who believe the decision was fair and just. Likewise, the other litigants invariably feel betrayed. It's time to move forward.

I never resented the seasons when Ferrari ruled supreme, simply because they gathered the requisite technical prowess, drivers, and wherewithal to have earned their championships.

For fans of the Mercedes-Benz marque, a season such as this has eluded us for far too long. Let’s just get on with the racing and let the courtroom battles fall where they may. Thus far, it's shaping up to be a heck of a run to the finish.

 

right right, i mean maca complain like **** last year cuz our flexi wings..oh and this year with our diffuser ... its okay to be blind and only want your team to win..and stop it with saying the Mercedes team.. it sounds soooo down gradeing..only thing thats Mercedes is the damn engine and its as reliable as your guys cars I lost tons of respect for Merc about 10 years ago..and hence why i have no respect for Mclaren Mercedes... now if it would still be Mclaren Honda

 

if it was mclaren honda I'd lynch you
lol

Meh atleast no more traction control

 

I rest my case.

 

Mercedes-Benz owns a 49% stake in McLaren & will probally end up buying them out in the near future. Norbert Haug is the President of MB Motorsport & is basically on the same level as Martin Whitmarsh, a McLaren employee & second in command after Dennis. It's a pretty ignorant statement to say that remark about downgrading as McLaren is now very much a Mercedes-Benz team. Also, what was that about the reliability? Tell me one time this year that a McLaren engine has failed?

It's obvious you have no respect for McLaren-Mercedes, that's why you let emotion get in the way of your arguments.

 

That's great!

 

for someone who lost respect for Mercedes 10 years ago,
this is the funniest $h!t I've seen anyone post on a Mercedes-Benz Forum !