scflaw

User Websrfr is obviously very opinionated towards Tesla. The S class and the Tesla Model S are both good in their own respects. However they should not even be considered in the same class as the S class. In cabin space and comfort it is at most an E class competitor.

Also in regards to the NHTSA investigation, one should look at the ratio of defect to number of parts in a vehicle. I'm not very knowledgeable in this respect but it would seem obvious that a single combustion engine has many more parts which could become defective versus an electric motor in the tesla.

my personal observation is that the people who have purchased a tesla are very defensive and are not very open to discussion.

WEBSRFR

Wow they almost sound like some people who have bought an S Class

WEBSRFR

Yikes what does it mean that a $100K "golf cart" is outselling the Mercedes S Class in the same price segment in the US and Europe and people who buy these "golf carts" are more satisfied with their purchase than the owners of any other automotive product?

I guess the Model S is more than a golf cart save for an ignorant few. Sorry your FUD about Model S suspension issues didn't really pan out.

Streamliner

Gentlemen,
This thread is B.S.
I am unsubscribing to this thread and I suggest that all MB owners do the same. Let's leave this fellow to twist in the wind, so he can drone on, all alone, chanting his Tesla mantra.
Does ANYONE here enjoy reading this crap?
See you boys a little further on down the trail.

UrBusted

Websrfr, what is the point of even commenting any more? Every single point has been made already. There is nothing left to argue about. If we wanted a Model S we would have got one. If you wanted a S Class, you would have got one. There is no possible way to change people who've spent hours researching and testing their cars to end up buying the one for them. If sales figures prove anything I can say people prefer the S Class to a Lamborghini Huracan, or a Ford F150 is much more desirable than the Mercedes C Class, Tesla Model X or whatever, Audi A4 and BMW 3 Series put together.

WEBSRFR

You do make some good points

I agree that many of these points have been hashed out multiple times.

TheTeslaDude

I'm sure WEBSRFR is here because this thread topic. There are few reasons to not check out a Tesla Model S. That's it. Now that Germany (as well as India, Norway, and possibly the Netherlands) have decided to ban sales of new gasoline-powered cars in the next 9-14 years, I would say owning a Model S now is owning a slice of the future. Hang in there, WEBSRFR!

absent

B.S.

Not so fast...



No, Germany Did Not Issue A Death Sentence For Fossil-Fuel Cars

Bertel Schmitt
FORBES CONTRIBUTOR

Electrek is one of the better green websites, and it only occasionally makes mistakes. Yesterday, it made a big mistake that could cost investors a lot of money.

“All new cars mandated to be electric in Germany by 2030,” the website headlined yesterday, announcing that “Germany is about to become the first major country to set an official deadline for a ban on gas-powered cars.” Should you have bought or sold shares on that news, quickly cancel the order. The newsflash is flat out wrong.

It is pure fantasy that, as Electrek writes, “a senior government official in Germany confirmed they will impose a mandate for all new cars registered in the country to be emissions free by 2030. The mandate will be part of Germany’s pledge to cut carbon dioxide output by 80% to 95% by 2050.”

Let’s retrace the baloney’s gestation.

Electrek apparently has the alleged news from Toronto’s Globe and Mail, which used a Bloomberg piece, albeit with a catchier headline: “All cars in Germany must be emissions free by 2030, official says.” Also not true.

The paper was led astray by Bloomberg, which somewhat correctly, but apparently confusingly wrote that “all new cars registered in Germany need to be emissions free by 2030 at the latest to help meet pollution reduction goals, a senior government official said.”

So what did really happen?

The official is Rainer Baake. He is not Germany’s “Deputy Economy Minister,” as Bloomberg erroneously writes, he is a public servant, State Secretary of Germany’s Ministry of Economy and Energy. In Germany, that ministry has no jurisdiction over cars. In Germany, Baake’s nickname is “Mister Energiewende,” the man in charge of the country’s energy pivot away from fossil FOSL +6.44% fuel and nuclear towards alternative, renewable energy such as solar, or wind. Baake is a reputable and feared environmental technocrat. For six years, he served as head of the environmental pressure group Deutsche Umwelthilfe, the same group that is Enemy Number One of Europe’s auto industry which reels under DUH’s relentless dieselgate attacks. Rainer Baake also is a member of the Green Party.

At a Berlin investment confab, organized by the Tagesspiegel newspaper, Baake was a speaker. Germany’s target is to lower CO2 emissions by 95% by 2050. At the meeting, Baake raised doubts that the target will be met. “There’s been no reduction at all in CO2 emissions by transport since 1990,” Baake noted, saying that since cars typically have a 20-year lifespan, registrations of new diesel and gasoline cars would have to be cut over the next 15 years to get anywhere near the 2050 target. Baake voiced a personal opinion, that’s all.

In reality, to get anywhere near the 2050 CO2 reduction goals, Germany’s plans to have 6 million EVs on its roads by 2030. That would be 10% of the currently 61.5 million vehicles, and it is a tall order. Despite a new EUR 4.000 incentive, Germany’s Environment Ministry projects that EV sales will only reach 500.000 electric cars by 2020. According to the EV-Sales scorekeeper, Germans bought only 1,622 EVs last April,

There is no law in Germany to go all electric by 2030, nor did the state secretary say that there should be one. Such a demand could cause civil war in a car-worshiping Germany, a country where, despite scientific proof that diesel exhaust causes cancer, the government does not budge from its support for the fuel and the auto industry. If Baake would have come even close to suggesting a ban of ICE cars, you would hear a loud howl from Germany’s media. However, should enterprising Electrek run a Google search for original news on the topic, it will find only one authoritative mention in the German language, written by the Tagesspiegel newspaper that organized the conference. The paper is closer to the matter than anyone, and it devotes only a very short paragraph to Baake and the climate goals:

“Even the politicians are cautious. The Paris climate goals are ambitious, said Rainer Baake, State Secretary in the Economy Ministry. There is a lack of suitable tools to implement the objectives, he said.”
__________________

scflaw

Correction: we have a tesla model s 2013 and are about to get a new s class.

This feels like a huge multiple discussion for a troll topic. I would propose to close this thread to stop further free advertisement for tesla.

El Cid

Thanks to absent for correcting this deceitful post.

absent

I see you still consume your own B.S.

NHTSB investigation is not done yet, regardless of what you rattle on.

http://www.motor1.com/news/64043/bur...orter-exposes/

PeterUbers

What do you all say to us re hashing this same argument in about a week?

WEBSRFR

They basically did not need any more information. Also odd that most of the NHTSA complaints about Model S suspension issues were essentially fraudulent entries with made up information.

You'd be surprised to find out how many of the Tesla Model S suspension components are shared with Mercedes. There is a reason the Model S drives so well. Tesla used some of the same suppliers for the hardware and well as tuning the suspension in the Model S and it does not seem there is a systematic issue given how many care are out there.

We basically had one guy's ball joint fail because he allowed the axel boot to deteriorate and fall off and the other instances I am aware of have to deal with accidents. Most cars are actually designed in the event of a major accident for the wheel to sheer off so that it does not intrude into the passenger compartment.

El Cid

Tesla S continues to be on Consumer Reports list of used cars to avoid, including the 2015 model. The worst of the worst. And CR fawned all over it just a few years ago. First car to ever get a 100 rating from them.

WEBSRFR

You are right on this one.

It is unlikely Germany will mandate only EVs to be sold by 2025 but isn't it interesting that this discussion is even taking place? It would have been unthinkable just a couple of years ago. The bottom line is whether it is 2025, or 2030, or 2035 the days of years of gasoline combusting cars are numbered and even the Mercedes' CEO agrees this to be the case.

It is only a matter of how long combustion technology, that is increasingly getting antiquated, will stick around in the premium car segment. If the Model S has not been enough of a wake up call for the premium car industry the Model 3 shipping next year will be.

While it is unlikely that Germany will mandate only EVs by 2025, it is very likely Norway will do so by 2025 or shortly thereafter. Already around 25% of vehicles sold in Norway are EVs. Other countries will follow.

http://bgr.com/2016/06/06/norway-gas-powered-car-ban/

PaulE550

Lets see if this discussion can get to 300 posts on the Tesla Marketing Channel, brought to you by your sponsor Tesla Motors, by the end of the month. Hey it's something to shoot for at least. Besides it's far more interesting than endlessly stating over and over and over that Tesla is the ultimate vehicle and everything else is total crap in comparison. Just a suggestion. :-)

WEBSRFR

Worst of the worst? Seriously? Do you care to back that up with numbers? Where did you pull that from or is this something that you just "feel" is true?

Because you do realize that Mercedes ranks lower than Tesla in reliability; right? Tesla does has low reliability but Tesla reliability is still higher than Mercedes based on the latest Consumer Reports study. Also realize most of Tesla's low reliability numbers are due to their initial 2012-2013 model year cars because that's the first car Tesla ever built on their own. Many of the issues have been addressed with cars shipping in 2016.

Based on the latest study Mercedes ranked 20-something in reliability. Tesla was not included in that study because at that time they only sold one model but if they were to be graded on the same scale for issues Tesla would have ranked around 13 or 14. Yes, nothing great but it is not 20-something either.

People who live in glass houses should not throw rocks at others. Mercedes has many strengths but lately reliability has not been one of them. Both Tesla and Mercedes has their work cut out to increase reliability.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2015...ability-survey

Wolfman

VW is moving aggressively forward to re-do its image. That means they are planning to have up to 30% of its production EV by 2025.

So far, there had been virtually no consumer interest in any e-VW's, and now the discussion is coming up (as I expected) where all those charging stations are coming from and more important, who is going to pay for the infrastructure.

The most optimistic reasonable numbers would be 15-20% by 2025.

Also, you have interesting statistics about Norway. Never mind that Norway has a TINY market, of the of 2.6 million passenger cars that were registered at the end of 2015, EV's increased from 38,600 to 69,100 cars total.

This, btw, comes from the Norwegian department of statistics. The graph reflects all registered passenger cars in Norway, as of March 2016

https://www.ssb.no/en/transport-og-r...ts=15388d6eca0

Will Norwegian now run out and buy themselves a new EV?
Statistics show that Norwegian passenger cars were 10.5 years old on average. The average age has remained the same for the last 6 years. In 2014, the average age of passenger cars in selected EU countries was 7.4 years.

WEBSRFR

Good point about VW. I recently read an article that they are about to invest around $10B to develop new EVs. The Porsche Mission E will be the first German EV to offer any real competition to Tesla.

A friend of mine recently bought an Audi E-Tron that is basically a PHEV with about 21 miles of range for city driving. He absolutely loves that car and what is interesting with the way he uses it is that he never likes the gasoline engine to kick in as he prefers driving the car around town in EV mode all the time. Audio just needs to put a bigger battery in and get rid of all the antiquated combustion components that car is now hauling around for no reason.

One of the Porsche Mission E's greatest innovations is the 800V charging that allows a full charge in about 15 minutes. If Tesla can build a nationwide, and indeed worldwide, charging infrastructure it should be a lot easier for a company like VW, especially considering the thousands of dealerships they have. Charging infrastructure for EVs really should not be an issue given that electricity is EVERYWHERE.

Also your point about the VW EVs not selling well has nothing to do with EVs not selling well but with VW so far building crappy dumbed down EVs that no one wants to buy. With nearly 400,000 reservations for the Tesla Model 3, it is obvious there is immense demand for no compromise innovative EVs. Just that so far only Tesla is building them.

The next 3-4 years are going to be fun to watch and i can't wait for Mercedes to get in on the game in earnest. Because their competition has stopped wasting time fighting the inevitable.

http://www.investors.com/news/volksw...llout-by-2025/

With regards to Norway, they will be one of the first countries to mandate only EVs be sold. With battery costs going down, EVs by then will cost less to produce than gasoline combusting cars so mandates will be a moot point.

El Cid

Tesla has lost 10% of its market value (almost $3 billion) because of plans to purchase Solar City.

WEBSRFR

Which obviously has nothing to do with the Tesla Model S. The market is reacting not for what Tesla builds but the concern the SolarCity will distract Tesla with resources.

Honestly I don't understand why Elon is embarking on trying to acquire Solar City. When we installed solar panels we contacted them and we were not impressed. While I am a huge fan of Tesla I actually could not care less about SolarCity though after our rooftop solar installation we are totally sold on solar power. After about 6 more years our solar panels will essentially provide us free power for our home as well as the Tesla.

Either Elon doesn't know what he's doing or he knows something we don't about SolarCity. I wish Tesla did not do this as they have their hands full trying to ramp up Model S and X production and trying to fill the 400,000 orders they have for the Model 3.

The SolarCity acquisition seems like a distraction and a resource hog when they can afford neither. So far his outlandish bets have paid off. Let's see what happens with this one.

TheTeslaDude

Try to look 10 years into the future, not yesterday. You will have a much better life.

UrBusted

You do realise that there isn't 400,000 orders, right? There hasn't even been that many Nissan Leaf's sold, forget about that, the W205 C Class has just recently reached that amount of total production, and we are talking about a company with billions in cash available and HUGE factories around the world. It would take at least 6 years for Tesla to fulfill that demand and I highly doubt people would want any of their money held up for that long. As well as that, a lot of the "orders" probably aren't even true.
The Model 3 is an absolutely wonderful car from what I have seen though and I would love to order one had it not been for previous issues with Tesla regarding quality and production amount.
Source : http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...y-says-no.html

TheTeslaDude

Yes, you're correct. It's not 400,000; it's currently at 372,000 orders for an as-yet-to-be-delivered car. That has never, ever happened before. Be part of the future, and get your order in now. There may even be some parts from the Daimler Benz company included to make you feel better.

UrBusted

What? There are basically zero orders. I put my name and a deposit in for a S Class Convertible, that doesn't mean I've ordered it. Why are you assuming we'd be it if it had Benz parts, the Model S has Mercedes parts but we still don't want one. The only compelling part of a Model S is the electric motor to us S Class' owners, but then there are some such as myself who prefer a 5.5 V8 over an electric 85D. Maybe my views will change in the future, but until Tesla has a car with an interior on par with the S Class we'll get one.
Regarding the Model 3, if I place a deposit for one now, they expect I'd get it in 2020, or 2021 by which time there would probably be an electric Mercedes.