syswei

You might laugh, but considering the price points of the Model S and Model X, after incentives, a very respectable number of people DO "want" and buy Teslas. Including some MB S-Class owners.

Personally, I think our next EV probably won't be from Tesla, but it was the right choice for us in 2016 (and for forum member LovinMercedes in 2017) and to this day my wife calls the Tesla "the best purchase decision" she "has ever made." (It is primarily her car.)

Ariesfamous

What does your wife's boyfriend think of the car?

syswei

In another thread, you for some reason asked Katie22 what grade she is in. Well, take a step back and look at your own comment here...it strikes me as something a teenager would say. A particularly immature teenager.

Ariesfamous

​​​​​​... seeing as you like to look at other people's posts go look at hers and you'll quickly understand why I asked her what grade she was in.

syswei

"When defeated by the facts, turn to insults."

Ariesfamous

Fact. Teslas are lame,and played out hipster trash.

Wouldn't be caught dead in a car without an engine what's the point? I guess if going in a straight line fast and getting from point A to point B and being able to brag about having a Tesla is important then that's cool too.

I like motorcycles and I like cars and I like nice sounding exhaust. I enjoy the heart and soul of an automobile.. I don't want to drive around in something that makes a whirring sound just because it has a nice tablet in the dash..

Ariesfamous

This is actually hilarious. Lol.

syswei

Laughing at your own jokes, eh?

Ariesfamous

A for reading and comprehension!


Anyway it's a public forum. If everyone liked the same thing it would be a pretty boring world,so enjoy your Teslas

syswei

No, that would be your OPINION. People that are buying Teslas now obviously don't share the opinion that they are lame.

Maybe you can tell your opinions to the people at Porsche, who have said that eventually, the MOST sporty of their offerings will be an EV. Or you can tell Ferrari, which is planning an EV supercar.

Ariesfamous

Ok. I'll head over to Porsche and let them know.

I can't stand most Porsches either, to be honest.

syswei

Well, I'm going to guess that you like at least some MBs, else you wouldn't be on this forum. So maybe while your in Germany you should tell the MB product planners and engineers that they should drop their plans for EVs, including AMG EVs.

Ariesfamous

.... so because a car maker is making an electric vehicle I have to like it? Lol.

To answer your question I love a bunch of Mercedes.. Mainly v8 and up engines, mostly.

syswei

Not at all, you are entitled to like or dislike whatever you want, and to think Teslas and EVs are lame. But you shouldn't be saying that it is a "fact" that Teslas are "lame" when there is convincing evidence that some people do not find them lame. Tesla's market share in the price segment where the S and X sell is pretty respectable, particularly for so new a company. The people buying those cars do not think what they are buying is "lame". Tesla being lame is your opinion, not fact.

That other car companies, known for at least some performance/sport models in their product lines, are developing EVs, is simply additional evidence that EV holds great promise.

Did you know that Volvo has said it has basically halted further development of ICE? They are just the first. Eventually some of the companies you cherish will do the same, imo.

Wolfman

Too many topics thrown around in this thread so people will be all over the place in their opinions. I wish we can just kill it off. Syswei, I like the topic discussion of EV's but would think you might just want to open a new EV specific thread. Not irrelevant as MB is throwing significant R&D into it...

El Cid

While all corporations and businesses in US receive some type of government "subsidies," the topic here is how much greater by comparison the Tesla subsidies have been. Also, how much more dependent Tesla is on those subsidies for the sales of their vehicles.
As for Ford, could you be more specific? My understanding is that while GM and Chrysler took the "bail outs," Ford did not.

I am not opposed to EV's, but I am opposed to continued fascination by many far beyond this forum with Tesla as the penultimate auto manufacturing enterprise. And the Tesla automobiles as being perfect.
Not to mention with those who think the combustible engine is dead and will disappear in next 10-20 years.

grossmsj

Sure. GM, Chrysler and GMAC received $24.9 billion from TARP, which we all associate with 'bailout'.
Ford asked for a $9 billion line of credit due to the tight lending markets. They received a $5.9 billion loan from the Energy Department's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program (ATVM). The money is being applied to advance commercial electric vehicles and other fuel-saving technologies (like aluminum bodies). https://www.thebalance.com/auto-indu...rysler-3305670
Tesla received $465 million in loans from ATVM, for development of the EV technologies. Tesla repaid this loan in 2013. Ford is due to repay their loan in 2022.
One could use all sorts of pejorative terms to describe the nature of these financial grants (loans, bailouts, subsidies). But basically it is the government using its resources to advance long-term US interests. I don't have a problem with that.

syswei

I dunno, a new thread about EVs I think is kind of stepping on the OP's toes a bit. As for the many topics and people "all over the place in their opinions" that might happen with any thread about EVs and/or Tesla, as I think people have varied and sometimes strong opinions.

syswei

Not so easy a calculation. For instance, the $25B number grossmsj mentioned...do you apply that to the unit sales just at the time of the financial crisis, on the basis that some of the Big 3 might not have survived without the help? Or do you spread it out over the entire lifetime of each company?

I'd argue that the $7500 on Teslas to date has helped "some" for the Models S and X, but given the high ASPs of those cars, I don't think sales would have been 50% lower or anything like that without the subsidy. As for the Model 3...we'll see how sales hold up after the $7500 disappears when Tesla reaches 200k cumulative EV units later this year. My guess is, the Model 3 is still a pretty attractive proposition without the $7500...just look into the car mag reviews...and they'll still sell plenty. Assuming they can produce them.

It is true that many Tesla owners exhibit rabid fanboy / cult-like characteristics. Some of them seem to see Elon as a demigod or something. I think objective owners though are well aware of design and quality issues, though.

As far as ICE, I don't think they will disappear in 10-20 years. But it is clear that R&D on ICE is already in decline. Companies like Audi and MB and others keep talking about how much they are devoting to EV investments, and where do you think that money comes from? While ICE will imo still be around in 20 years, new R&D on ICE by that time (and probably much sooner) imo will be near-zero. While EV technology, including batteries, will still be progressing. For instance, Porsche by going with 800 volt technology in its Mission E will enable charging 250 miles of range in just 15 minutes (article). Technology like that is going to make it eventually into more mainstream EVs. And be improved upon. And battery tech is still improving, making for cheaper, lighter, and energy-denser batteries. And hybrid tech in the nearer term has alot to offer. My prediction is that in just 1-2 years, the very highest performing AMG one can buy will be hybrid. And within 5 years, the very highest performing AMG will be pure EV.

In my personal situation, I see having 1 hybrid and 1 EV a few years from now.

syswei

Some brief clips of Nurburgring runs, including of the Porsche Mission E, I guess a test mule:

Streamliner

syswei

A very mixed review of the Tesla Model 3.

MTrauman

syswei

Will do, thanks. WEBSRFR seems to be MIA.

lsdreem

Reviving this thread just cause its not the same without seeing it at the top of the thread list.