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2020 S560 Sedan, 2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, '24 BMW I7 on order...
And, no matter what, if the transition from electric to gas is anything similar to the “seamless” way the ECO On/Off works on my 2015 S550, it would drive me absolutely nuts. Every now and then, I forget to turn the ECO system off right after start up and the first time it shuts down and restarts, it is very disturbing in a car that is otherwise very quiet and smooth in its operation. MB should allow owners to permanently disable this ridiculous feature.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by Utopia Texas
I just don't see the point of a hybrid that only has a battery range of 30 miles especially at this price point.
An owner doesn't have to run in EV mode. Done right, a hybrid can offer better performance, or better economy, or a bit of both. Some high end cars are hybrid for performance reasons...LaFerrari, Porsche 918, McLaren P1, and others.
I think that if MB did a hybrid based on the I6 in the euro-spec S500, it would perform better than, AND get better MPG, than an S560. If it were also 4matic, I'd sign up now, despite losing a little trunk space.
I think that the vast majority buying an s class is not concerned with gas mileage. the amount of these sold would be very little and the resale would be even worse than a standard model.
2020 S560 Sedan, 2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, '24 BMW I7 on order...
I completely agree. If you can afford a $120K car, $4.00 gas—or even $5.00 gas—isn’t an issue. We want silky smooth, utterly quiet, ultra safe, reliable, luxurious transportation, at least I do.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Again, MPG isn't the only benefit to hybrid technology, when it's done right. Since the intro of the new-generation Panamera hybrid, 60 percent of Porsche's Panamera sales in Europe have been of the hybrid version. Hybrid need not sell in very small numbers, if done right. IMO "right" in the W222's case means that they should use the I6 from the eurospec S500 rather than the old V6.
Again, MPG isn't the only benefit to hybrid technology, when it's done right. Since the intro of the new-generation Panamera hybrid, 60 percent of Porsche's Panamera sales in Europe have been of the hybrid version. Hybrid need not sell in very small numbers, if done right. IMO "right" in the W222's case means that they should use the I6 from the eurospec S500 rather than the old V6.
I don't understand your logic. Just because 60% of a certain type auto sells in Europe it automatically makes it a benefit to me? What exactly is the benefit? Sounds like circular thinking.
I don't understand your logic. Just because 60% of a certain type auto sells in Europe it automatically makes it a benefit to me? What exactly is the benefit? Sounds like circular thinking.
While I agree with Syswei that the S560e should have the inline 6 instead of the V6, the direct electrical range is really of no relevance. It's a hybrid, not an EV. Key in a hybrid is the interaction of the two engine designs to benefit fuel consumption and lower emissions, along with the lack of range anxiety.
Cars are designed for global sales, not US sales; as such, laws and regulations, tax implications (engine size), even the ability to enter a city (based on the cars particle emissions) are critical. More important is the lack of charging infrastructure. Modern plug-in hybrids make sense for a number of reasons...
That said, if that doesn't matter to you, the car isn't for you anyways
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by Utopia Texas
What exactly is the benefit?
As I posted earlier, "Done right, a hybrid can offer better performance, or better economy, or a bit of both. Some high end cars are hybrid for performance reasons." Anyone who thinks that hybrid technology is only about MPG gains is poorly informed at best.
Did you think that the $1,420,000 LaFerrari that I also mentioned in the earlier post was designed as a hybrid for fuel economy reasons?
The best-performing of the Panamera drivetrains is hybrid, not pure ICE.
Within the MB product line, the S450 is 0-60 in 5.4s. The S560e hybrid (which unfortunately is built on the very same 362hp ICE unit) is 0-60 in 4.9s. Is that performance advantage of any benefit to you or anyone else who might care zero about MPG?
I can guarantee that if MB built a hybrid around the 4.0L V8 that is in the current S560, it would out-perform the S560.
There are some downsides...cost, weight, cargo capacity, so hybrid even "done right" isn't going to be everyone's first choice. But the performance benefit is there, on top of any fuel economy benefit, for those who care.
My prediction: 10 years from now, most if not all AMG offerings will be either hybrid or pure EV.
As I posted earlier, "Done right, a hybrid can offer better performance, or better economy, or a bit of both. Some high end cars are hybrid for performance reasons." Anyone who thinks that hybrid technology is only about MPG gains is poorly informed at best.
Did you think that the $1,420,000 LaFerrari that I also mentioned in the earlier post was designed as a hybrid for fuel economy reasons?
The best-performing of the Panamera drivetrains is hybrid, not pure ICE.
Within the MB product line, the S450 is 0-60 in 5.4s. The S560e hybrid (which unfortunately is built on the very same 362hp ICE unit) is 0-60 in 4.9s. Is that performance advantage of any benefit to you or anyone else who might care zero about MPG?
I can guarantee that if MB built a hybrid around the 4.0L V8 that is in the current S560, it would out-perform the S560.
There are some downsides...cost, weight, cargo capacity, so hybrid even "done right" isn't going to be everyone's first choice. But the performance benefit is there, on top of any fuel economy benefit, for those who care.
My prediction: 10 years from now, most if not all AMG offerings will be either hybrid or pure EV.
While you are correct, the reason for MB offering the S560e has NOT been performance
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by Wolfman
While you are correct, the reason for MB offering the S560e has NOT been performance
I don't know MB's motivations but yes performance presumably was only one consideration or perhaps not a consideration at all and the main motivation was green marketing and having a W222 offering for city centers that ban (or will ban) tailpipe emissions.
Nonetheless, it is the case that the S hybrid outperforms the S450 by 0.5s to 60, while using the same ICE unit, which is a far from trivial difference imo. If they had called it S450Plus or something like that instead of S560e, it would be clearer to people what is on offer. Calling it S560e gives the uninformed the false impression that they are getting the same engine as the S560.
I don't know MB's motivations but yes performance presumably was only one consideration or perhaps not a consideration at all and the main motivation was green marketing and having a W222 offering for city centers that ban (or will ban) tailpipe emissions.
Nonetheless, it is the case that the S hybrid outperforms the S450 by 0.5s to 60, while using the same ICE unit, which is a far from trivial difference imo. If they had called it S450Plus or something like that instead of S560e, it would be clearer to people what is on offer. Calling it S560e gives the uninformed the false impression that they are getting the same engine as the S560.
No need to repeat. Of course performance improves. 2 motors deliver more power than one. It is exactly for that reason the ICE is scaled down. Same with BMW. Have to look but I thought that's the same on the Panamera as well. Numbers like the 450 or 560 doesn't mean anything anyways as it's not related to engine size anymore. They call it a 560 because they are marketing the car as a 560 (greener) equivalent. Options/pricing and even the performance are set that way. That there is a smaller V6 in there matters to virtually no S-Class buyer except the technically curious
Porsche of course also offers a lower-performance hybrid based on the base ICE that is also in their base-ICE Panamera.
I wish MB would take the Porsche approach...offer hybridization with mid and/or high performance ICE units, not just with its low-performance ICE unit. Ultimately I think they will, at least in the AMG lineup.
IMO hybridization has alot to offer customers, even those who put no value on fuel economy. I remember that for awhile, before the W222 was introduced, there was a rumor that the W222 would come ONLY in hybrid.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by Jason B
So what's the main difference between this and the w221 S400 Hybrid that was a failure?
That's a good question and maybe someone who owns a pre-FL W222 S550e would be able to answer it.
IMO, the S560e in the U.S. at least may sell in OK numbers but probably won't be a huge sales success, unlike Panamera hybrids in Europe so far. If MB had put the engine from the euro-spec S500 in it and called it an S570e, or used the 4.0 liter V8 from the S560 and called at an S580e, that might be a different story.
01-08-2018, 02:46 PM
