EV (& hybrid) discussion thread for W222 owners & potential owners
04-02-2018, 03:59 PM
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EV (& hybrid) discussion thread for W222 owners & potential owners
This thread is meant to consolidate some of the EV and hybrid discussion that had been taking place on this forum, usually in threads with "Tesla" in the title. It was suggested by Wolfman and okayed by MTrauman.
MB and its direct competitors are making major investments in this area, and it is just a matter of time imo before we have a better hybrid offering for the S-Class (meaning not using the old V6), and eventually an EV comparable in roominess and luxury to the ICE S-Class. What I have in mind is general discussion of EVs/hybrids, as might be of interest to W222 owners or potential owners. It isn't meant to be solely about any one or two car makes.
MB and its direct competitors are making major investments in this area, and it is just a matter of time imo before we have a better hybrid offering for the S-Class (meaning not using the old V6), and eventually an EV comparable in roominess and luxury to the ICE S-Class. What I have in mind is general discussion of EVs/hybrids, as might be of interest to W222 owners or potential owners. It isn't meant to be solely about any one or two car makes.
Last edited by syswei; 04-02-2018 at 04:06 PM.
04-02-2018, 05:13 PM
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A number of advantages come to mind for EVs:
1. Lower total cost of ownership for comparable performance, when factoring in initial purchase, fuel, and maintenance. (On a Tesla btw, maintenance is optional…if you don’t do any, it doesn’t void the warranty! For all EVs and full hybrids, brake pads and rotors tend to last a long time, due to regenerative braking.)
2. Potentially higher reliability due to far fewer moving parts. (For example, in most cases there is no transmission, not to mention the myriad parts that go into an ICE.)
3. Quiet, at least with equivalent sound insulation and tires
4. Instant torque, better general performance for the same price.
5. Lower emissions, including of CO2. (In my case, this isn’t a big factor, but is an added bonus)
6. A relatively minor benefit…being able to pre-heat or pre-cool your car’s interior, when it is indoors, because there is no ICE spewing carbon monoxide.
7. Space efficiency...a bonus front trunk where normally you'd have an ICE...and no tunnel cutting into your rear seat floorspace.
8. EV technology is improving at a faster clip imo than it is for ICE. Eventually imo new R&D into further ICE improvement will come to a halt.
Disadvantages (and some responses):
1. Lack of re-charging infrastructure. This will be the case for a long time to come, and is the reason that for multi-car families that make the occaisional long trip, or trip to a remote area, I think that having one hybrid or ICE makes the utmost sense.
2. Slow re-charging. For home situations, this imo isn’t much of an issue, as long as one puts in a 40A 240V circuit (it cost me a few hundred bucks), because the EV can charge overnight. For travel, it is a big issue, but the technology is improving. For the Mission E, Porsche is designing around 800V, which means a suitable charger will add 250 miles of range in just 15 minutes (compared to 60 minutes or so for a Tesla). 15 min. isn’t bad, and technology is apt improve beyond this in time.
3. Heavy. This disadvantage is somewhat offset by the fact that the weight can be positioned very low, yielding a lower center of gravity than in an ICE. Notably, Porsche has indicated that eventually (meaning maybe as late as 2030) their most sporty offering will be an EV, not ICE or hybrid.
4. In SOME designs, performance is best in short, drag-race type scenarios, rather than sustained laps. That is the case with Tesla. But it is NOT an inherent requirement of EVs, and with the appropriate design elements, such as better battery cooling systems, an EV becomes “trackable”. Porsche has said clearly that their forthcoming Mission E (coming in 2020) will be more about sustained performance, rather than a drag race.
5. Lack of fun engine sounds in current designs. But, it doesn’t have to be this way. EV companies could offer the ability to use the car’s sound system to simulate engine noise at the push of a button, when that is what the driver wants. There could even be a choice of different sounds…911, S650, Formula 1, whatever. Of course, the better the sound system, the better the result. Subwoofer suggested.
1. Lower total cost of ownership for comparable performance, when factoring in initial purchase, fuel, and maintenance. (On a Tesla btw, maintenance is optional…if you don’t do any, it doesn’t void the warranty! For all EVs and full hybrids, brake pads and rotors tend to last a long time, due to regenerative braking.)
2. Potentially higher reliability due to far fewer moving parts. (For example, in most cases there is no transmission, not to mention the myriad parts that go into an ICE.)
3. Quiet, at least with equivalent sound insulation and tires
4. Instant torque, better general performance for the same price.
5. Lower emissions, including of CO2. (In my case, this isn’t a big factor, but is an added bonus)
6. A relatively minor benefit…being able to pre-heat or pre-cool your car’s interior, when it is indoors, because there is no ICE spewing carbon monoxide.
7. Space efficiency...a bonus front trunk where normally you'd have an ICE...and no tunnel cutting into your rear seat floorspace.
8. EV technology is improving at a faster clip imo than it is for ICE. Eventually imo new R&D into further ICE improvement will come to a halt.
Disadvantages (and some responses):
1. Lack of re-charging infrastructure. This will be the case for a long time to come, and is the reason that for multi-car families that make the occaisional long trip, or trip to a remote area, I think that having one hybrid or ICE makes the utmost sense.
2. Slow re-charging. For home situations, this imo isn’t much of an issue, as long as one puts in a 40A 240V circuit (it cost me a few hundred bucks), because the EV can charge overnight. For travel, it is a big issue, but the technology is improving. For the Mission E, Porsche is designing around 800V, which means a suitable charger will add 250 miles of range in just 15 minutes (compared to 60 minutes or so for a Tesla). 15 min. isn’t bad, and technology is apt improve beyond this in time.
3. Heavy. This disadvantage is somewhat offset by the fact that the weight can be positioned very low, yielding a lower center of gravity than in an ICE. Notably, Porsche has indicated that eventually (meaning maybe as late as 2030) their most sporty offering will be an EV, not ICE or hybrid.
4. In SOME designs, performance is best in short, drag-race type scenarios, rather than sustained laps. That is the case with Tesla. But it is NOT an inherent requirement of EVs, and with the appropriate design elements, such as better battery cooling systems, an EV becomes “trackable”. Porsche has said clearly that their forthcoming Mission E (coming in 2020) will be more about sustained performance, rather than a drag race.
5. Lack of fun engine sounds in current designs. But, it doesn’t have to be this way. EV companies could offer the ability to use the car’s sound system to simulate engine noise at the push of a button, when that is what the driver wants. There could even be a choice of different sounds…911, S650, Formula 1, whatever. Of course, the better the sound system, the better the result. Subwoofer suggested.
Last edited by syswei; 04-03-2018 at 05:37 AM.
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04-02-2018, 05:18 PM
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Personally, I have a 2015 S550, and may replace it with a 2019 S560. Not an EV because I want (at least until public charging infrastructure is FAR better than today's) a hybrid or ICE, for long trips. Not a 2019 hybrid because I don't want to replace a 2015 with a hybrid that has the old-tech V6. I'm assuming that the W223 will offer a better hybrid option. Preferably a full hybrid based on the S560 engine, or the higher performance of the 2 variants of the I6 (as used in the European S500), but if that isn't available in the requisite timeframe, hopefully there will be a mild hybrid at least.
Our other car is a Tesla Model S. We’ve had it since mid-2016, and while I’ve soured on Tesla a bit, it was the right choice at the time and is still a reasonable car to own. I’m likely to replace it with the Audi EV coming in 2019, or the MB EV coming in 2020, or possibly the Jaguar coming in late 2018. Replacing it with another Tesla remains a possibility, if we end up living part-year in a high-rise that does not have charging stations; in that situation, having Tesla’s supercharger network available is a big deal, if the competitors lack something similar.
Our other car is a Tesla Model S. We’ve had it since mid-2016, and while I’ve soured on Tesla a bit, it was the right choice at the time and is still a reasonable car to own. I’m likely to replace it with the Audi EV coming in 2019, or the MB EV coming in 2020, or possibly the Jaguar coming in late 2018. Replacing it with another Tesla remains a possibility, if we end up living part-year in a high-rise that does not have charging stations; in that situation, having Tesla’s supercharger network available is a big deal, if the competitors lack something similar.
04-03-2018, 11:50 AM
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Excellent!
I look forward to reading this thread and contributing to it.
Am certainly leaning towards an offering from MB but am also intrigued by the Mission E.
Am certainly leaning towards an offering from MB but am also intrigued by the Mission E.
04-06-2018, 01:51 PM
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MB EV "at the level of the S-Class" could come to market as early as 2020!
AutoCar's interview with MB's Michael Kelz
...could be as late as 2022, but even that is a bit earlier than I had assumed for an S-equivalent EV.
AutoCar's interview with MB's Michael Kelz
...could be as late as 2022, but even that is a bit earlier than I had assumed for an S-equivalent EV.
04-06-2018, 08:13 PM
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The launch of these cars will be driven by the timing of primary competitors (BMW, Audi, Porsche). The focus will not to be the first, but to be better than anything on the market at launch.
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04-06-2018, 08:33 PM
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What will be interesting is how new ownership/lease/subscription models will influence the EV adoption.
Mercedes es is launching its subscription model in Europe now with US intro as early as the end of the year. I think likely next year, but the Mercedes Me Flexperience as they call it would be attractive for people switch to an EV as one of their car choices. Keep as long as you want, switch as often as you want. Get it delivered to your door step.
Mercedes es is launching its subscription model in Europe now with US intro as early as the end of the year. I think likely next year, but the Mercedes Me Flexperience as they call it would be attractive for people switch to an EV as one of their car choices. Keep as long as you want, switch as often as you want. Get it delivered to your door step.
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04-07-2018, 11:17 AM
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What will be interesting is how new ownership/lease/subscription models will influence the EV adoption.
Mercedes es is launching its subscription model in Europe now with US intro as early as the end of the year. I think likely next year, but the Mercedes Me Flexperience as they call it would be attractive for people switch to an EV as one of their car choices. Keep as long as you want, switch as often as you want. Get it delivered to your door step.
Mercedes es is launching its subscription model in Europe now with US intro as early as the end of the year. I think likely next year, but the Mercedes Me Flexperience as they call it would be attractive for people switch to an EV as one of their car choices. Keep as long as you want, switch as often as you want. Get it delivered to your door step.
That's a good point. It would let a customer try out an EV for a month, and be able to switch to an ICE if he/she found it not to their liking. Or to switch based on needs...for instance if the customer was planning a camping trip or something to an area that didn't offer charging en route, just switch from EV to ICE for a month.
04-07-2018, 03:30 PM
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That's a good point. It would let a customer try out an EV for a month, and be able to switch to an ICE if he/she found it not to their liking. Or to switch based on needs...for instance if the customer was planning a camping trip or something to an area that didn't offer charging en route, just switch from EV to ICE for a month.
04-14-2018, 07:05 AM
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AMG "63" to go hybrid, and apparently 6-cylinder according to AMG head Tobias Moers:
“I think the [C63] formula is perfect for now, but for sure we need to have a close look at viable alternatives, because we have to be creative and I’m chasing performance and that’s not strictly linked to the number of cylinders....If you apply proper intelligent hybridisation or electrification to a car which is capable of having an always-on strategy regarding the battery and the whole system, then it’s amazing what you can get out of them....Which means for sure the next-generation Mercedes-AMG C63 will be a hybrid – that’s now a given,” he said. source article
From what he is saying, I'd expect some iteration of the M256 inline-6, in a full-hybrid, probably plug-in, setup, with a meatier electric motor or motors than in the S560e.
People who want a V8 hybrid may still be able to get one in the GT and other product lines that see AMG "73" versions. An 800hp full-hybrid GT 4-door 73 has been rumored. Perhaps 73s will come to market earlier than hybrid 63s.
For the S-Class, I'd expect to see full-hybrid S63 and S73 versions eventually introduced.
“I think the [C63] formula is perfect for now, but for sure we need to have a close look at viable alternatives, because we have to be creative and I’m chasing performance and that’s not strictly linked to the number of cylinders....If you apply proper intelligent hybridisation or electrification to a car which is capable of having an always-on strategy regarding the battery and the whole system, then it’s amazing what you can get out of them....Which means for sure the next-generation Mercedes-AMG C63 will be a hybrid – that’s now a given,” he said. source article
From what he is saying, I'd expect some iteration of the M256 inline-6, in a full-hybrid, probably plug-in, setup, with a meatier electric motor or motors than in the S560e.
People who want a V8 hybrid may still be able to get one in the GT and other product lines that see AMG "73" versions. An 800hp full-hybrid GT 4-door 73 has been rumored. Perhaps 73s will come to market earlier than hybrid 63s.
For the S-Class, I'd expect to see full-hybrid S63 and S73 versions eventually introduced.
Last edited by syswei; 04-14-2018 at 07:24 AM.
04-23-2018, 03:47 PM
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An article in C&D has info on the Audi e-tron Quattro, reportedly going on sale in Europe this year, and in the U.S. in 1Q19.
04-24-2018, 09:08 PM
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04-25-2018, 01:07 PM
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Lamborghini Aventador and Huracan Replacements Will Be Plug-in Hybrids...with full electrics coming from Lambo ~2026.
Last edited by syswei; 04-25-2018 at 01:14 PM.
04-25-2018, 01:30 PM
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article ...Ferrari plug-in hybrid in testing. "The hybrid engine will soon be an option on all new models, and from 2020 the carmaker will use it as the sole drivetrain for its first sport-utility vehicle." Full EVs 2022 or later.
04-25-2018, 07:32 PM
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Some more coverage.
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04-30-2018, 05:13 PM
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Porsche Doubles Target for Deliveries of Electric Cars by 2025 ..."the vehicles will make up as many as half of its deliveries by 2025 in a sign the shift to electric models is speeding up"
05-09-2018, 10:16 PM
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05-11-2018, 01:22 PM
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Below is a 20 min. Mercedes EQC "first ride" review / interview with chief engineer Michael Keltz:
In it, Keltz describes it as having a wheelbase similar to an E sedan or GLC, comfort like an E-Class, and sportiness like a CLS.
The reviewer says it feels like an existing MB model, just quieter and with more immediate acceleration.
The pre-production model already has a quieter drivetrain that a Tesla (where you can hear electric motor whine at times), and they are working to make it quieter still. I'd expect the final product to exhibit zero to very minimal drivetrain noise.
In it, Keltz describes it as having a wheelbase similar to an E sedan or GLC, comfort like an E-Class, and sportiness like a CLS.
The reviewer says it feels like an existing MB model, just quieter and with more immediate acceleration.
The pre-production model already has a quieter drivetrain that a Tesla (where you can hear electric motor whine at times), and they are working to make it quieter still. I'd expect the final product to exhibit zero to very minimal drivetrain noise.
Last edited by syswei; 05-12-2018 at 07:07 AM.
05-16-2018, 12:58 PM
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I knew the BMW i3 has been a sales flop, but jeez...
How to Lease a $50,000 BMW for Less Than a Subway Pass
How to Lease a $50,000 BMW for Less Than a Subway Pass
05-17-2018, 12:50 PM
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Daimler Files Tsunami of Trademarks in Advance of 'EQ' EV Debut
Of course I doubt we'll see 9 powertrain variants of the EQS, even on a worldwide basis. The trademark filings are likely meant to just cover all the bases.
Hoping to see an EQS around 2021. Not clear what their strategy is going to be when it comes to sedans vs SUVs/crossovers. The EQC is a crossover; what will a C-Class EV be named? Or is one even planned?
Of course I doubt we'll see 9 powertrain variants of the EQS, even on a worldwide basis. The trademark filings are likely meant to just cover all the bases.
Hoping to see an EQS around 2021. Not clear what their strategy is going to be when it comes to sedans vs SUVs/crossovers. The EQC is a crossover; what will a C-Class EV be named? Or is one even planned?
05-17-2018, 01:13 PM
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Daimler Files Tsunami of Trademarks in Advance of 'EQ' EV Debut
Of course I doubt we'll see 9 powertrain variants of the EQS, even on a worldwide basis. The trademark filings are likely meant to just cover all the bases.
Hoping to see an EQS around 2021. Not clear what their strategy is going to be when it comes to sedans vs SUVs/crossovers. The EQC is a crossover; what will a C-Class EV be named? Or is one even planned?
Of course I doubt we'll see 9 powertrain variants of the EQS, even on a worldwide basis. The trademark filings are likely meant to just cover all the bases.
Hoping to see an EQS around 2021. Not clear what their strategy is going to be when it comes to sedans vs SUVs/crossovers. The EQC is a crossover; what will a C-Class EV be named? Or is one even planned?
It is Mercedes-Benz... They make a new engine it seems nearly everyday so I would not be surprised if they did the same with a battery powertrain lol.
