iwantone

I you could only have one tuner to tune your one Mercedes that'll you have for the rest of your life, which tuner would you prefer?

NEA-4311

AMG, dont ask why, I really like it.

Ted Baldwin

.............page 144 of current Motor Trend magazine. CLS55 AMG vs Brabus modified CLS 55 (AKA K8 package). I'll spare you the suspense. The stock AMG car is faster to the quatermile than the Brabus K8. Only area the K8 was better was in braking distance. Talk about a total waste of money. It is quite possible that the folks at AMG actually know what they are doing. I like Brabus, but I find it confusing why those that favor Brabus are unintersted in objective performance data. Yes I know about the EV12. Now name something else from Brabus that actually outperforms the competition and include the performance data and the source. I here.........silence.

Ted

SL BRABUS

you know what I like.........

art@kronen

Brabus for sure.

Ted Baldwin

..........understood. Likes and dislikes are subjective, so no problem. To add some objectivity to it, those not yet completely sold on Brabus will like to see some objective performance data. If its was HPS that took the CLS55 and made it slower, everyone on this board will be complaining about HPS.

Ted

SL BRABUS

Brabus leading so far...... ... ........

vraa

I like my warranty that always works, no questions asked.

SL BRABUS

you vote for AMG......... Go away and drive your BMW.......... Just joking........

knifegun

iwantone....Do you also post on the s2ki boards?

Daez_Nutz

Brabus-tuned cars aren't known for having the quickest 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, as that has never been their focus. The real difference is at Autobahn speeds and passing power. I haven't read the test you've referenced, but a few things come to mind. For one thing, it's probably an anomaly. If you're suggesting that Brabus cars make less power than an unmodified car, that's a bit much. It could very well be that the 0-60 sprint and 1/4 mile are simply not enough to gauge the difference between these cars. Perhaps the K8 was having more traction issues, which could skew the times in favor of the AMG. I would love to see a standing mile race between the two, or in-gear acceleration comparison.

Here is an article comparing the SL55 with its K8 counterpart. The writer notes that 0-60 time only improved by a tenth, but that the car was significantly faster in passing situations and beyond 50mph. He does not doubt for a second that the Brabus car is more powerful.

That said, I prefer Brabus for more than just performance figures. Their products are also about exclusivity, prestige, and quality--the same virtues that characterize the Mercedes brand (or used to anyway). I have nothing against AMG, I am in love with their cars. But I see them literally everyday. Every time I turn around, I see another C32, C55, E55, CLS55, SL55, etc. Today, on my lunchbreak, I pulled up next to a full Brabus CL 5.8 at a light. Now that made me do a double take. The 5.8, as you know, is slower than a stock '03+ CL55. But it still grabbed my attention faster than any CL55, which I see all the time. I had never seen a full Brabus-spec 5.8 on the road before, and this was a treat for me.

Short version, my vote for Brabus goes beyond the numbers. There's something about their products that appeals to me on another level altogether. AMGs, while fantastic cars indeed, are becoming more commonplace everyday. Brabus cars are, IMHO, something special.

Ted Baldwin

.............you have reduced your argument for Brabus to two key issues. According to you Brabus vehicles are visually appealing and they are also exclusive. I will simply ignore the visually appealing argument because that is so subjective that there is not much point in it in my opinion. If you want a visually attractive car that is not for performance driving, get an Aston Martin. If you are going to compare another tuner to AMG, you have to talk about how fast it goes and how well it corners etc. Don't step into the ring of a boxing match and claim you worn because your make-up is more pretty.

..............AS far has power goes, it is not very difficult to make a car more powerful. You can slap on nuclear power plant in the engine bay if you wish. Getting the power to the ground is key issue. To the extend that the Brabus car failed in that respect is not a trivial point.

..........secondly, the magazine should be comparing a Brabus tuned CLS 500 to a CLS 55AMG. For a company to take an AMG car and tune it and then turn around and compare the tuned car to the stock AMG is not really a reasonable comparison. Any tuner will have a better performing vehicle compared to the stock vehicle they tuned. But for the tuned vehicle to loose to the stock one is in the minds of many quite significant.

..........the term exclusivity needs to be used correctly. There are very few Yugos on the road. Are Yugos exclusive? As you can see from this board a good many enthusiasts simply opt not to go with Brabus because performance wise, brabus tuned vehicles do not measure up to their other counterparts. I think Brabus has done a good job of convincing their clientele that the only reason others don't choose brabus is because they can't afford it. So many Brabus owners incorrectly carry this as a badge of honor. From a marketting standpoint, this is awesome for Brabus but from a reality standpoint this is not correct. I just finished a full Kleemann conversion on my W210 E55 and I am ashamed to admit that the cost was at least twice what I was quoated at Brabus. I chose Kleemann because for the W210, Kleemann offers the best products.

...........Finally, we are all car enthusiasts, and to each his own.

Ted

Daez_Nutz

When comparing two elite tuner outfits at this echelon, subjective aesthetics absolutely come into play. After all, we're discussing Mercedes Benz in the first place, so uncompromised performance was never the focus from the get-go. If you want mind-blowing acceleration and skidpad figures, buy a Z06 and call it a day. I think we can agree that Mercedes (and transitively AMG and Brabus) are simply more than 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. We love them because they are complete cars, a symphony of all the traits we seek out in our automobiles. Furthermore, let's not forget where this particular debate is taking place. This is a poll of personal preference at the end of the day, not a head-to-head showdown of dragstrip prowess.

What would be gained by comparing a Brabus-tuned CLS500 and an AMG-tuned CLS55? If Brabus tunes it the way it traditionally does (6.1L N/A), there is simply no way it can pump out the same output as a supercharged motor. In fact, nobody can, within reason. That's an apples-to-oranges comparison. If Brabus takes the 500 engine and builds it for forced induction, they would essentially be repeating the process that goes into an AMG 55 motor and end up with a K8, and we're back at square one.

Even so, such examples do exist. An AMG 65 is their take on the factory 600 biturbo V12, correct? Brabus also uses the 600 as the base for their V12S motor. So, at least in this case, both tuners started with the same canvas and Brabus built the bigger monster. Naturally, AMG is mandated by its corporate masters not to flirt too closely with the edge of the performance envelope--what with the reliability requirements of a production vehicle and such. However, from a purely objective standpoint, excuses aside, a V12S is a more powerful and aggressive build than a 65.

If I had simply said that Brabus cars are more rare than AMGs, then you would be somewhat legitimate in making your oft-used Yugo argument. But exclusivity, as it exists in our vernacular, implies desirability in addition to scarcity. When I say that Brabus cars are exclusive, I insinuate that they are not only few in number, but also esoteric treasures that are enigmas to those ignorant of their cadre and sought-after prizes to those in the know. It's not a cut and dry matter of affordability. When I see a Brabus car, I'm not impressed by the owner's financial security so much as I am by his/her refined taste and shared appreciation for my personal tuner of choice.

I happen to think that your car is amazing. I have a lot of respect for Kleemann and the gaudy performance figures that they have routinely attained for years. Interestingly enough, I admire your car for many of the same reasons I stated above. After all, you have to admit that it was not a cheap conversion. In fact, you probably could've traded in for a W211 E55, used the already blown AMG motor as a base, and ended up with higher output and a lower pricetag. But it doesn't stand out to me solely because it is an unquestionably fast vehicle. I like it because it's unique, one-of-a-kind, build to personal specification, and (dare I say it?) exclusive. Anyone with the fiscal means can purchase an E55K, slap on an ECU and pulley of their choice, and have themselves an absurd rocket of a sedan. It takes someone with more discerning needs and meticulous attention to detail to be willing to offer the time, effort, and expenditure for something truly different. Chances are, most people have no idea what a Kleemann S7 is. But for the savvy, it's the mark of a truly dedicated enthusiast who has gone the extra mile to make his/her car a masterpiece.

I feel the same way about Brabus cars.

The bottom line is, whether you go with AMG, Brabus, Kleemann, RENNtech, Carlsson, Lorinser, etc., you really can't lose. (Well, if you go with Lorinser, you might be losing your vision.) We're dealing with the 99th percentile here, and at this level it ultimately comes down to pure, unsubstantiated, perhaps arbitrary personal preference.

SL BRABUS

If AMG is good enough why do I see people with AMG car take it to Brabus..... Oh yeah, Brabus are known around the world........

SL BRABUS

This is one of the customer who thinking of getting Brabus or Kleemann....... He end up getting Brabus..... This is his qoute...... ....

The simple answer to your question of "why" did I go to BRABUS is because I decided what my goals were, did my homework, and - in the end - because I felt like it. I never said that BRABUS has any special secrets. I went to three shops that install Kleemann parts - all referred to me by Kleemann HQ. I spent hours in those shops negotiating and talking about my options. All three were absolute hole-in-the-wall grease pits that I wouldn't leave my SLK55 in if the work were free - no matter what the performance gains. There are so many considerations other than price in this equation. The proof is in the pudding - I own a BRABUS B55 and I love it. I have never ONCE bad-mouthed Kleemann or any other tuner. I went to BRABUS because they are classy, offer top of the line stuff and are a local company for me. They treated me well and just look at my car - you can't argue with results.

rlee02135

AMG is too stock.

i would go with a company that you dont see a lot of.

Ted Baldwin

..............Try this. Go on ebay, type in Kleemann, Lorinser Brabus, Renntech. Brabus stuff everywhere both fake and real. So for Lorinser, less for Renntech and no Kleemann car or trinklets on sale. Actually, when was the last time you saw a car with A Kleemann badge on the road? Those that favor Brabus may wish to rethink the dogma that Brabus is rare.

Ted

SL BRABUS

ok......good point....... I want it to be rare but not rare to the point like Renntech or Kleemann that no one know or heard about those company...... For example if you go to Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand and etc....... everyone know Lorinser or Brabus..... but Renntech or Kleemann they be like WTF is that....... For example Rolex they are not rare and there are real and fake.....why people spent so much money on those watche...... why not get something rare like Audemars Piguet........ Why........ ?? Why do I buy Nike.... Nike shoe fall apart on me after 3 week....... Why not buy LA Gear shoe like my friend and last him for years....... LA Gear shoe are rare...... I guess it all about the Brand Name........
Just my 2 cents.......

Fifth Ring

People bring AMGs to Brabus because AMG is not really a tuner anymore and you can't "take your car" to AMG the way you take it to Brabus.

AMG has access to Benz technology from day one, and as a result, their efforts will generally be more reliable and integrated. Moreover, Brabus has to start with a customer's car, and try to use as much of the existing hardware as possible. So a C320 tweeked by Brabus cannot include some of the engine internals you find in a C32 due to price consideration.

Renn 208

I'd like to bring a different sort of counterpoint to this debate...given that the case for Brabus has been articulated quite well by Daez.

It seems that for the purpose of this argument, "better" can be based off of the following:
1. Coachwork (fit and finish of exterior and interior ammenities)
2. Performance
3. Exclusivity (more than simple rarity of numbers, but augmented by desirability)

1. Coachwork
Personally, I would choose AMG as my tuner, and more specifically, HWA. Versus, Brabus, perhaps this is not a fair comparison to make, as HWA cars and AMG Manufaktur services are generally unavailable in the US, but if we're really comparing the "best of the best" examples, I'd have to give my vote to AMG and HWA. I've seen fantastic examples of both Brabus and AMG, and the fit and finish of some of the custom AMG coach work I've seen makes the Brabus coachwork simply look "aftermarket". Mastik, while a fine material, certainly changes the character of the car. It's a subtle difference, but if I had to pigeon hole the two, Brabus's strength is in that their work screams out different (not in the way that Lorinser does, thank God, but it's different), while AMG Manufaktur's work always looks like it was meant to be that way.

2. Coachwork cont. + Performance
As for body work, sure it's mostly a matter of personal taste as both "tuners", and I use that term loosely since both are full auto manufactures, have access to wind tunnels, and carbon production facilities. I'd say that the difference here is that HWA is a continuously functioning racing team, and with it's "from the first line on paper to the finish line" design philosophy it gets the edge on design. Also, that they use the F1 and DTM safety car programs as guinea pigs for designs and components later integrated into series models another reason for getting my vote.

3. Exclusivity and a note on US perception
Yes, living in California, we certainly see far more AMG series cars than Brabus cars. But if you want to talk exclusive, there are AMGs running around that are far more rare, and I’d go so far as to say carry even more provenance than their Brabus counterparts. On familiar internet example would be the ex-Toni Designo Orange w202 C55. Just based on my observations of how many times pictures of his car have cycled through the net, I’d say that should at least hint as to its desirability. Another example, and a bit closer to home, would be the ex-Piodoty w210 E60 6.3. What makes the latter car even more interesting to me is the subtle detail…three lock trunk, sunroof delete, mysterious paint, rare wheels, unique interior, (and a build date of 11/1996). This was the car that made me realize that AMG does things in the shadows that most of us wouldn’t even dream about. If that isn’t exclusivity, I don’t know what is. Sure I’m using slightly older examples…but it’s more to illustrate that often times certain ideas are tired out by AMG long before they become full series options. (cf. F1 Safety Car program and the recently available 030 performance packages).

Yes, Brabus makes the occasional EV12-type car, reaching for the upper echelons of performance. But what has AMG/HWA produced? They seem to come up with “wild” cars at a seemingly regular pace….and not just outright numbers cars, but interesting exercises in engineering that push a specific theme. You end up with diverse offerings such as the A38 bi-moto, G60 long wheelbase, S60 pullman, C30 Diesel…all the way to the CLK-GTR and CLK-DTM street…

The short of it is…just because just anyone can walk into your local Benz dealership and buy the latest AMG, doesn’t mean that that’s the best AMG’s got. Information on such cars is pretty limited in the US, and so I can understand why AMG is being seen as say common compared to the Brabus cars available in the US.

In the end though, the tuner that fulfils the customer’s needs best is the best. Whether it’s enveloping yourself in a Brabus Business sedan, or sitting in a factory fit AMG creation, or dare I even say it…a 310 Motoring “pimp my ride” SL, Mercedes owners are not all the same, thank god, and have several options when making their tuning dreams come true. I’ve included my observations and opinion, since that’s what the OP asked for, but I’ve no delusions of settling the issue once and for all.

Daez_Nutz

Renn, how dare you disagree with me?

S-Clusiv

AMG allll the way....








lol

SL BRABUS

look at your sig........ ......lol just kidding........

Renn 208

ShervSL500AMG

I am down for an AMG car with a Brabus upgrade. I am a driver not a fighter