Evosport V6 and V8 Performance Ignition Stages I and II
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From: mercer island, seattle
Originally posted by nov0798
the only way to increase voltage to the plug is to introduce a higher primary voltage in the coil.
the only way to increase voltage to the plug is to introduce a higher primary voltage in the coil.
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From: mercer island, seattle
they are not ordinary wires but with built-in capacitor, I use them in my NSX for race purpose and they are the best, I cant find better one. and YES, the car r much faster than with stock wire.
Last edited by BryBenz; Mar 17, 2004 at 05:54 PM.
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
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From: Southern CA
If the plug is cleaner, there are no deposits on either electrode, making it easier to fire, as electrical current will always choose the path of the least resistance. Deposits will increase the resistance necessary to jump the air gap, especially if they build up on the sharp edges of the electrodes. Changing plugs and wires helps this. We have seen a reduction in as much of 3,000 ohms of resistance in 1 OEM wire vs an aftermarket wire.
As I have stated, we have seen consistant gains on our C32, as well as others who installed simliar upgrades in their C32 Stage II package. The fact of the matter is, they work; pure and simple. Virtually every car with plug wires has an aftermarket upgrade available for them. Why would it work on most cars, but not Mercedes? Again, we have seen firsthand that they do.
I will try to participate more in the technicalities of this debate later, however I currently do not have the time necessary.
Thanks,
Ben
**EDIT** Those are not our wires above. There is no capacitor, nor is their room for a capacitor, in our Mercedes wires.
As I have stated, we have seen consistant gains on our C32, as well as others who installed simliar upgrades in their C32 Stage II package. The fact of the matter is, they work; pure and simple. Virtually every car with plug wires has an aftermarket upgrade available for them. Why would it work on most cars, but not Mercedes? Again, we have seen firsthand that they do.
I will try to participate more in the technicalities of this debate later, however I currently do not have the time necessary.
Thanks,
Ben
**EDIT** Those are not our wires above. There is no capacitor, nor is their room for a capacitor, in our Mercedes wires.
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From: San Diego, CA
2006 Corvette Coupe
Again, the disclaimers in my original post apply, I'm not trying to criticize anyone, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the upgrade. That said, IMHO "until the voltage at the spark plug electrodes reaches the ionization point" is the key phrase.
The spark forms as a function of the gap distance and the properties of the air-fuel mixture within the gap. Introduction of a capacitor will accumulate charge on the capacitor while increasing the voltage difference across the plates of the capacitor, but when the capacitor is coupled to the spark plug, the spark forms as soon as the voltage between the two parts of the spark plug reaches the ionization point of the air-fuel mixture spanning the gap.
The spark might last longer due to the charge stored on the capacitor which will continue to flow so long as the voltage at the two parts of the plug remains at the ionization point.
The spark, which is hot plasma, will cause the air-fuel in the direct vincinity of the spark to combust, and then combustion radiate from the point of initial combusion based on the pressure of the air-fuel mixture in the between the cylinder and the head. So here's the question: what good is would be sustaining the spark any longer than the minimum amount of time required to start the initial combustion. True, the spark will radiate -some- heat, but I have to guess that the combusion speed of reaction radiating outward from the initial reaction is so fast that any additional heating from the extended spark would do nothing. Moreover, as the air-fuel in the direct area of the spark is already combusting, extending the spark would not seem to do any additional power generation there.
The spark forms as a function of the gap distance and the properties of the air-fuel mixture within the gap. Introduction of a capacitor will accumulate charge on the capacitor while increasing the voltage difference across the plates of the capacitor, but when the capacitor is coupled to the spark plug, the spark forms as soon as the voltage between the two parts of the spark plug reaches the ionization point of the air-fuel mixture spanning the gap.
The spark might last longer due to the charge stored on the capacitor which will continue to flow so long as the voltage at the two parts of the plug remains at the ionization point.
The spark, which is hot plasma, will cause the air-fuel in the direct vincinity of the spark to combust, and then combustion radiate from the point of initial combusion based on the pressure of the air-fuel mixture in the between the cylinder and the head. So here's the question: what good is would be sustaining the spark any longer than the minimum amount of time required to start the initial combustion. True, the spark will radiate -some- heat, but I have to guess that the combusion speed of reaction radiating outward from the initial reaction is so fast that any additional heating from the extended spark would do nothing. Moreover, as the air-fuel in the direct area of the spark is already combusting, extending the spark would not seem to do any additional power generation there.
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also, you only need high initial voltage to start the spark, once it is started the voltage requirements fall dramatically.
also I am NOT trying to flame evosport at all, i have their pullies on my c320 and love them.
if you read mach430's post you will clearly see where he continues to state improvements on a c32, A SUPERCHARGED CAR! of course you will probably see improvement s on a force induced car. as for the validity of this who knows. the only way to see improvements is if the voltage out of the coil is higher. since you havent changed the voltage in to the coil then you wont have any extra voltage out of the coil. so i dont see how you can have any improvemnets.
also I am NOT trying to flame evosport at all, i have their pullies on my c320 and love them.
if you read mach430's post you will clearly see where he continues to state improvements on a c32, A SUPERCHARGED CAR! of course you will probably see improvement s on a force induced car. as for the validity of this who knows. the only way to see improvements is if the voltage out of the coil is higher. since you havent changed the voltage in to the coil then you wont have any extra voltage out of the coil. so i dont see how you can have any improvemnets.
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Southern CA
Unfortunately, while automobile engineers have been doing this for 30+ years, there will never be a 100% agreement w/ any modiciation. I think our reputation should speak for itself, in that we don't produce, or even carry, performance upgrades that do not perform as we state; it's just not our philosophy.
Will an ignition upgrade work better on a forced-induction car? Yes.
Please understand, this is not some new technological break-through that we are trying to sell to the world. We have merely released a product, that has been proven on virtually any other car where performance upgrades can be found, into the Mercedes market--just as we did with our underdrive pulleys.
A highly tuned car WILL BENEFIT MORE from our ignition upgrade than a stock car. The reason we havenot provided dyno numbers on stock cars is because we believe in selling & purchasing items at the greatest value first. A naturally-aspirated motor will stand to benefit more from our underdrive pulleys and software than just our ignition upgrade. Therefore, in my opinion, it would be wrong of us to recommend that they spend more on our ignition upgrade prior to those. BUT, all cars stand to benefit from this upgrade; stock, street, or track. These are not F1 motors we are working with. There are plenty of inefficienes in the system that can be modified and benefited by reducing.
As I previously stated, the degree of benefit varies depending on the motor, modifications, octane, etc... If you are not sure whether this is the upgrade that you should choose next for your car, ask!
Thanks,
Ben
Will an ignition upgrade work better on a forced-induction car? Yes.
Please understand, this is not some new technological break-through that we are trying to sell to the world. We have merely released a product, that has been proven on virtually any other car where performance upgrades can be found, into the Mercedes market--just as we did with our underdrive pulleys.
A highly tuned car WILL BENEFIT MORE from our ignition upgrade than a stock car. The reason we havenot provided dyno numbers on stock cars is because we believe in selling & purchasing items at the greatest value first. A naturally-aspirated motor will stand to benefit more from our underdrive pulleys and software than just our ignition upgrade. Therefore, in my opinion, it would be wrong of us to recommend that they spend more on our ignition upgrade prior to those. BUT, all cars stand to benefit from this upgrade; stock, street, or track. These are not F1 motors we are working with. There are plenty of inefficienes in the system that can be modified and benefited by reducing.
As I previously stated, the degree of benefit varies depending on the motor, modifications, octane, etc... If you are not sure whether this is the upgrade that you should choose next for your car, ask!
Thanks,
Ben
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Originally posted by Mach430
Will an ignition upgrade work better on a forced-induction car? Yes.
Will an ignition upgrade work better on a forced-induction car? Yes.
One would put 2 heat rang cooler plugs in to help out with the war with heat.
The point of veiw that compression wants to put the candle out is true.
I am also impressed that this system on a C32 could make 9HP. I am impressed because the intercooler under that charger could be better and the one under the 55 motors needs to be a lot better. If one wants to flame me because of my last statement. Create a new thread. Your are not the only one that has intercooler problems lets see here WRX. Just thank God that Mercedes dumped Eaton.
To sum up my crazy run of thought. A hotter spark could be a war for a cooler result. LOL
Last edited by audi 1.8t; Mar 18, 2004 at 10:47 PM.
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MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,012
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From: Abingdon, MD
Could you email me what numbers you need?
Off the spark plug wires themselves?
Kleemann alloy pulley
LTW flywheel + 7 HP over stock
Upsolute tuning
What could I expect to see gain wise? Just looking for an estimate.
Also, do you have the ltw accessory pulley kit for the '02 cl203?
Also, what the cost of 264 shricks? Want to keep it streetable.
You never returned my emails about the Koni's, and Brad never got back to me, etc. Please follow up Ben. Thank you!
Off the spark plug wires themselves?
Kleemann alloy pulley
LTW flywheel + 7 HP over stock
Upsolute tuning
What could I expect to see gain wise? Just looking for an estimate.
Also, do you have the ltw accessory pulley kit for the '02 cl203?
Also, what the cost of 264 shricks? Want to keep it streetable.
You never returned my emails about the Koni's, and Brad never got back to me, etc. Please follow up Ben. Thank you!
thank you sir!
Senior Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 458
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From: Oxford, Pa
03 CLK55
Since there are some experts here on ignition...
I'd be curious as to what you think of this idea... (By the way, my post introduction was 100% genuine, and not sarcastic at all!) From what I've read, part of the problem with early flame propogation is the spark plug"ground" (For lack of the proper terminology) that "blocks" some of the air/fuel mixture. I would assume that if this is true, the problem must be worse with these newer twin, and even quadruple ground spark plugs. If this IS true, I have an idea that would eliminate this problem entirely. My idea, is to have a very hard wearing "ground" embedded in the piston itself. As the piston nears top dead center, and the ground approaches the plug, the plug would fire, and there would be a true 360 degree flame kernel. This is assuming of course that the ground would be both long enough to close the necessary gap, yet short enough not to contact the cylinder head. Obviously the problem would be worse with the more ignition advance there is, as the piston would be further away from TDC, and the gap would obviously be greater. I figure that durability and fouling really shouldn't be a problem. If 100,000 mile spark plugs are the norm now, surely they could incorporate a 300,000 mile "piston". My guess is that it's either just not enough of a benefit to justify the cost, and/orthe problem with ignition advance. All the same, any thoughts or input would be appreciated!!
Best regards,
Matt
Best regards,
Matt
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Matt-
What you are talking about was pioneered and introduced by SAAB in 1995 in the 9.3, and continues is some degree with SAABs SCC concept engines with Orbital. I dont know if you are really suggesting an over the counter upgrade or not- but it would be nearly impossible to retrofit the technology to a MB. The pistons in a variable spark engine are very unique in shape and are typically seen with a centralized plug location. Forget the fact that the engine management would have to change as well.
Nukblazi-
M111 does not have spark plug wires. Individual coils are mounted over each plug which resides in a deep well due to the twin cam 16 valve design of the head. The "wire" is essentially the plug boot which is directly mounted to the coil pack.
What you are talking about was pioneered and introduced by SAAB in 1995 in the 9.3, and continues is some degree with SAABs SCC concept engines with Orbital. I dont know if you are really suggesting an over the counter upgrade or not- but it would be nearly impossible to retrofit the technology to a MB. The pistons in a variable spark engine are very unique in shape and are typically seen with a centralized plug location. Forget the fact that the engine management would have to change as well.
Nukblazi-
M111 does not have spark plug wires. Individual coils are mounted over each plug which resides in a deep well due to the twin cam 16 valve design of the head. The "wire" is essentially the plug boot which is directly mounted to the coil pack.
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Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Helsinki, Finland
W211 E55AMG
http://www.magnecor.co.uk/ look in here. especially FAQ 
Senior Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 458
Likes: 1
From: Oxford, Pa
03 CLK55
Oh no, I definitely meant that as OEM and not as a retrofit...
Originally posted by KLEEMANN
Matt-
What you are talking about was pioneered and introduced by SAAB in 1995 in the 9.3, and continues is some degree with SAABs SCC concept engines with Orbital. I dont know if you are really suggesting an over the counter upgrade or not- but it would be nearly impossible to retrofit the technology to a MB. The pistons in a variable spark engine are very unique in shape and are typically seen with a centralized plug location. Forget the fact that the engine management would have to change as well.
Nukblazi-
M111 does not have spark plug wires. Individual coils are mounted over each plug which resides in a deep well due to the twin cam 16 valve design of the head. The "wire" is essentially the plug boot which is directly mounted to the coil pack.
Matt-
What you are talking about was pioneered and introduced by SAAB in 1995 in the 9.3, and continues is some degree with SAABs SCC concept engines with Orbital. I dont know if you are really suggesting an over the counter upgrade or not- but it would be nearly impossible to retrofit the technology to a MB. The pistons in a variable spark engine are very unique in shape and are typically seen with a centralized plug location. Forget the fact that the engine management would have to change as well.
Nukblazi-
M111 does not have spark plug wires. Individual coils are mounted over each plug which resides in a deep well due to the twin cam 16 valve design of the head. The "wire" is essentially the plug boot which is directly mounted to the coil pack.
Disc valves... I got the idea from a parmaesan (sp?) cheese can. I figured that you could allow much higher rpm because of no reciprocating valves. I figured that two overlapping discs would allow variations in duration...
"Afterburner" turbochargers... squirting a little bit of fuel into the exhaust ports to speed up the exhaust turbine at low-boost/off throttle applications (Mainly for a race car)
Forced induction by compressed air created from regenerative braking (Experimented with by McLaren F1, and I still think there's allot of potential there, as well as other regenerative braking concepts)
Anyway, I'm not trying to brag or anything, but having no engineering background or college education, I was a little proud to read that these ideas have all been tried before...
Best regards,
Matt
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 538
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From: Silicon valley
Audi C7.5 S6
Racers, for years, have indexed spark plugs, marking them and using shims, to make sure the ground terminal is not shielding the spark. It gives a little power increase, but not worth the effort for most srtreet cars.
Most spark plug wire should be replaced at 40k-60k, for best performance. The question is, taking out the old wires and replacing with stock vs aftermarket wires, how much difference is there.
For maximum performance and timming advance, when adding boost to an engine, the plugs should be one step colder.
For best performance replace the plugs, every 6k to 10k miles, it may give a small boost, usually not worth it.
Most spark plug wire should be replaced at 40k-60k, for best performance. The question is, taking out the old wires and replacing with stock vs aftermarket wires, how much difference is there.
For maximum performance and timming advance, when adding boost to an engine, the plugs should be one step colder.
For best performance replace the plugs, every 6k to 10k miles, it may give a small boost, usually not worth it.
Last edited by m444; Apr 25, 2004 at 03:51 PM.
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most likely the results arent that great thats why they disappeared when i challenged them. If you want larger wires, contact magnecor and go to your autoparts store and buy plugs from them. the 2 together would be cheaper then evilsports mega buck upgrade.
