Mach430

Stage I:

We recently completed r&d on our V6 and V8 Stage I Ignition upgrades for all 1998+ V6/V8 Mercedes-Benz Engines. Included in Stage I are Evosport 8mm Performance Ignition Wires and colder irdium/platinum spark plugs. Gains of better response, smoother acceleration, and up to 10hp at the wheels can be expected depending on the motor, modicifications, and mileage.

-Stage I Pricing-

V6 Models: $559
V8 Models: $729

**Introductory Special**

For the remainder of the month, our Stage I Ignition Upgrades will be on sale for $479 and $619 (V6/V8 respectively).

Stage II:

With Stage I completed, we are beginning testing on Stage II, which will include the integration of a multi-spark capable CDI Ignition box, able to produce sparks of over 50,000 volts--nearly 50 times greater than stock!

The increased power will allow us to use much greater gapped spark plugs, and thus increase engine responsiveness, efficiency, and power output.

Stage II will begin testing on my car in the coming month, and should be available by Summer '04. Those who purchase Stage I will be able to upgrade to Stage II through purchasing our upgrade package when available.

Thanks,

Ben

Richard Galing

What's the estimated install time for the V8 models?

CHB

What are the gains of Evosport 8mm Performance Ignition Wires with stock plugs? I just changed mine 2 weeks ago, and dont want them to go to waist :/

Mach430

Installation should take about 1.5 to 2 hours.

Mach430

I honestly do not know. Usually, one would change the plugs at the same time, as they are already working in the same location.

Without changing the plugs, should the wires increase performance? Sure. The question is just by how much. The answer of course varies with the car . Theoretically, new stock wires and plugs on a car with 40,000+ miles is beneficial (to a lesser degree of course), so adding our wires with your plugs should help as well. However, for the package value, I would recommend purchasing bothhh and either using the plugs or saving them for later.

Thanks,

Ben

levelr123g

i know this will start a war, but unless the engines current ignition system is inept then changing the wires and plugs will not give you any extra hp. the only way to create extra hp is to burn more fuel/air in a given amount of time per cycle. now if you free up drag on the engine (e.g. pullies) then you will see an increase. usually the only difference between an 8 mm wire and a 10 mm wire is the protective cover over the wire.

Also evosport guys, can you tell me what size belt to use on my v6 if i have the pullies installed. thanks

Mach430

The truth of the matter is that in any engine the necessary voltage that is required to jump the spark plug air gap at the plug will go up as cylinder pressure goes up. The more power you make the greater the cylinder pressure will be. If the minimum voltage is not achieved the plug will not fire and will result in a flame out condition (MISS FIRE)

With that being said the factors that will impede the required voltage from being achieved are:
-resistance between the center electrode and the ground electrode (newer, cleaner, sharper edges, less resistance vs. used and dull) (iridium and platinum are more wear resistant)
-heat of coils, wire's, plugs (any component that will carry current will be affected by heat as heat goes up so will resistance so a properly insulated wire will be less susceptible to radiated thermal energy)
-dwell time of the coils will also limit how much voltage will be achieved at the plug.
As the engine speed goes up the time required for the coils to energize fully goes down, this will result in less voltage available at the plug to fire the air gap and as the engines power output increases, the required voltage to jump the spark plug gap will go up while the time to achieve this goes down. The reason why aftermarket ignition systems work so much better is that they have the ability to not be bogged down with the compromising performance and costs of production that the OEM has to bear on such a large scale.

So in summation a plug that will require less voltage to jump the same air gap will have the ability to extract a greater operating range for fixed conditions, not to mention if they stay cleaner and sharper longer they will be consistently better performers. New wires that have less resistance and are better shielded will not hinder the voltage from making it to the plug. Lastly a good quality aftermarket ignition system will put more voltage to the plug consistently, and more importantly, will allow you to run a wider plug gap that will have the ability to catch a greater portion of the fuel/air charge by yielding a greater percentage of the charge to be used; which will in turn yield more power and better economy a win, win.

Thanks,

Ben

--Our pulley kits use a 6 Rib - 95"/2415mm belt.

levelr123g

if the car was having misfires, then the computer would pick this up. also why not just buy an msd and bolt it on, what is there to test at this point. also what size belt do you use on the v6 with your pullies.

vraa

Did you read past the first paragraph? The car from OEM direct has to be tuned so that's it's safe for every car that gets pushed out, it's similair to the reason why AMD has a special line of CPU's called MP (as opposed to XP) which are just XP chips that have been tested individually for multiprocesser situations. The factory at Mercedes doesn't have the ability to test every thing that goes out, but Evosport can sure tune it and squeeze more power out of it.

Mach430

You're right, if you try to push the stock system too far, the computer will detect a misfire, pull back timing, and lose power. This is one of the reasons why we are offering this upgrade. Remember, our objective in providing a performance upgrade is the opposite; to gain power.

Suggesting a MSD box is a step in the same direction, and acknowledgement that what we are doing works, however our system will improve upon many of its limitations.
Thanks,

Ben

AMG///Merc

From what I understand, combustion pressure drops dramatically as the combustion chamber gets bigger as the piston travels down. I read that pressure starts to drop after approxomately the first 25% of the pistons stroke. The fuel/air mixture continues to burn during the remaining 75% of the stroke, but it does little in the way of producing power. The piston continues the stroke more from flywheel momentum than actual cylinder pressure.

Assuming that what I read is correct, then I believe that it stands to logic that the more fuel and air that you can burn during that initial first of the stroke, the greater the peak pressure, and therefore power. It seems even more logical when you consider how little time there is during each power stroke. I think of it like this: the naturally aspirated 5439cc V8 makes peak torque at 4000 rpm. Since the power stroke only occurs at every other revolution, we have 2000 power strokes per minute. That equates to an ignition firing every .03 seconds. Once again, if my information is correct, it's vital to burn as much furl air as possible during that initial 25% of the stroke, that reduces combustion time even more, down to .0075 seconds. Obviously not much time there. If we calculate burn time at 6000 rpm, there's only .005 seconds to burn as much mixture as possible.

I have to think that having a signifigantly stronger spark has to go some way to helping to burn as much fuel/air as possible. I also suspect that while the twin plugs are mainly for emissions, (please correct me if I am wrong), modifying the ignition phasing between the plugs could help take advantage of this as well.

Does my logic seem practical? By no means am I trying to pass this off as gospel. It really is just my opinion based on what I have read. At the risk of coming across as a wise acre, I am a bit curious about the pricing for the Evosport ignition kits. Is it really $729 for plug wires and iridium plugs? Are the wires integrated with the coils to the point where you are including the coils as well? I understand that the price also reflects R&D costs, but it still seems awfully high regardless. I respect Evosport, and I believe in their reputation, so I apologize if more is included, and it is just my ignorance of the product in question. Let me know what you think...



Best regards,
Matt

Mach430

Matt,

At 6000 rpm that equates to 2,160,000 degrees of crank rotation per min which breaks down to 36,000 deg/sec or 36 deg/.001 sec thats one one-thousandth of a sec. The first 25% of the pistions travel equates to 45 deg which means that in .00125 of a sec the engine will travel 45 deg. That is how fast things happen.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing to your 25% theory, as there are too many factors to get into. However, the above numbers are correct for you to use in your theories.

Don't forget, based on the degrees of crank rotation at 6,000 rpm, each cylinder has a dwell time of .02 sec before having to fire again. This is one of my above mentioned reasons of why we are looking into ignition systems that can outperform the factory at high engine speed and increased cylinder pressures.

FYI, with factory replacement parts, you are spending about $500; $100 less than our current special with zero gains. Remember, Mercedes uses 2 plugs per cylinder; you're buying 16 plugs and wires, not 8.

Thanks,

Ben

PS -- None of these are new ideas, they've been used on other cars for decades. The gains are no longer as extreme as before, but the end story boils down to, no car comes perfectly tuned from the factory.

ronnie0738

any approximate pricing info on stage II ignition?

hubert

Hi Ben how are You. My question to You is, will this ignition kit work with Kleemann S/C that I recently insstalled on My 99 E430.
HUBERT

Mach430

Ronnie,

Pricing is TBD, however I expect it to be a great value when complete.

Hubert,

Yes, not only does it work, but it works better, as some of the inefficiencies in the stock ignition system are worked out. I have it on my car! Stage II will really benefit your highly-modified 430. Feel free to call me tomorrow for more info.

Thanks,

Ben

AMG///Merc

And my method was totally screwed up, as you pointed out. A big part of my mistake was using rpm versus degrees of rotation. Secondly, and even dumber was dividing rpm by two. Sure, the plugs only fire at every other rpm, but the crank is still spinning which of course means that even with my goofy method, I was doubling the times. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Now in my defense I did try to simplify everything in order to make it easier to get my point across. All in all, my math was horribly incorrect, and I appreciate the clarification. You're obviously also correct about there being 16 wires and plugs. I know that they are twin plug heads, as I stated in my post, so that makes my goof even worse, lol. I guess I must have taken stupid pills this morning, lol. (Actually, I'm exhausted from being on the computer aaalll day long...) Now does my logic of a stronger spark helping early combustion make sense, regardless of where or when peak cylinder pressures drop? I assume that these wires are more beneficial with the supercharged motors, but that there should be some benefit to the NA 113's as well, is that also correct?

I can definitely say this much. I had a 1991 Suzuki GSX-R1100 that had 1216cc, a port, polished, and bead-blasted head, 38mm flat-slide Mikuni carbs, a Yoshimura intake cam and exhaust system, and lastly, Dyna coils and Accel plug wires that supposedly had considrerably less resistance than the stock wires (They were much thicker). I did the coils and wires seperately, and while I'm not 100% of whether or not it gained power, it sure as heck revved a whole lot faster. It really was a pretty signifigant difference, and I know my mind wasn't playing tricks on me, because at the time, I didn't know that an upgraded ignition would make the motor rev faster. Throttle response was signifigantly improved. It also seemed to run much cleaner too. Not as much black smoke at w.o.t., and it lost some of it's intake-reversion-from-valve-overlap dip. It just revved right through it. I didn't expect really much of a change at all, and I was very happy with the results, so i'm sure that we can expect at some improvement from the Evosport kit as well. Thanks again for all the information!



Best regards,
Matt

Mach430

Matt,

Hey, no worries! I commend you for putting that much thought into your post; regardless of the outcome. It's healthy questioning like yours that helps us all to learn, and even better -improve upon, new ideas.

A stronger/faster spark can allow the engine to be more productive, as there are less inefficiencies (delays) keeping ignition from occurring at the most precise moment. Anytime you remove an inefficiency in a car, you stand to improve upon it. Whether it is brakes, intake, exhaust, motor, or whatever, nothing comes perfectly tuned from the factory--these aren't Enzos we're driving.

You are correct in your assumption that supercharged cars, or any highly-tuned motor, will benefit more than most stock motors. However, as you said, all motors stand to benefit.

Thanks,

Ben

smgC32

Nice technical debate. Do you have Dyno numbers on this new upgrade? Just out of curiosity, why don't wires have any beneficial results on a BMW E36, but do on the E30? Something to do with the computer compensating for the current fluctuation, similar to a computer line conditioner.

ronnie0738

Ben,

Let us know how CDI works out. I wish the price was a little lower considering denso plugs can be had under $200 for a dozen which means a dozen wires cost almost $300.

theine

Ben, will your stage 1 be of any benefit on a chipped car or the gains will be less.?
Thanks

Mach430

smgC32,

We have seen 9hp at the wheels on a C32 w/ our Stage I upgrade. I have noticed gains on my car, but have yet to dyno them.

The reason why e36 plug wires provide no gains is because the coil sits directly on the spark plug--there are no wires. Whereas the e30 had a distributor which powered all plug wires directly.

ronnie0738,

As soon as we have the CDI wired to my car, I will post results.

Although we have used and recommended Denso's in the past, we found a new solution that has provided a significant improvement. The plug we are currently recommending added 3 whp across the powerband on our race car on back to back dyno runs. It is also better suited for the stresses of a tuned motor and longevity. I have nothing against the Denso plug, however to put it in perspective by comparing it to the NGK we are using now, the closest Denso plug is about $35 per plug.

It is our never-ending quest to bring you the most current and up-to-date products. If we had a brand allegiance, we would only be pushing one brand, and stayed with Denso. But then we would be standardizing, not customizing.


Theine,

The more modifications your engine has, the more these upgrades will help. They will work great on a stock motor, but they will work greater on a modified motor.

Thanks,

Ben

BryBenz

They work! I used that nology ignition module and hotwires in my comptech supercharged race NSX so they should gain big acceleration too on benz. they worth every penny IMO.

cschow

I'm going to have to agree with nov0798 about this. I have not seen any compelling evidence that there is an issue with the stock ignition system. The below statements are my opinions only and I am not a mechanical engineer. If I am wrong I welcome a well reasoned technical debate, and especially cites to test data and/or references when applicable. Alternatively, before/after dyno charts, if available, would also be helpful.

The above statement is true, however, the upgrades should yeild additional power -ONLY IF- the stock ignition system is incapable of generating a spark across the gap. If that were true, you'd have a very rough running engine and emissions issues which would be readily apparent. I doubt any tuner would sell a package which would put a stock engine in such a condition unless that package also -mandated- some sort of upgrade to the ignition system as a prerequsite for installation.


As I recall from physics, the voltage required to jump an air gap is based on the span of the air gap and the dielectric break-down of the material within the span. Moreover, I'm not sure what this has to do with the cleaniness of the plugs.

As wires are made from conductors, resistance between different wires would primarily be based on the ability of the wire to conduct current, which would be controlled in the first order by the diameter of the wire. Secondary orders of contribution would come from the conductivity differences between different conductors and length of the wire. Unless the existing wires are corroded, I doubt there would be much of a difference in resistance or impedance between stock and upgraded wires.

I will agree that if you supply a greater voltage to the plug and you increase the gap size you will start the combustion over a larger volume of the air-fuel mixture and that could lead to some increase in power. I have no clue how much that would increase performance however, the amount of air-fuel directly set off by the spark is likely not that much and the effect of a small increase in that amount by lengthening the spark is questionable, given that the chemical reaction thereafter should be primariliy dictated by the pressure of the atomsphere inside the cylinder.

Further, if the voltage were increased without increasing gap size, not much would change as the spark will still form at the same voltage and once formed, the spark will ensure the voltage will be at the breakdown threshold voltage dictated by the gap size and material content of the air-fuel mixture.

ronnie0738

Ben,

Which ngk plug do you use in stage I?

levelr123g

the onlt way to increase voltage to the plug is to introduce a higher primary voltage in the coil. since i am assuming that the computer has some control over voltage supplied to the coil then you would have no direct control of it, unless you change the coils to a higher output coil. the other issue is the rise/collapse time of the coil. i assume that the cpu also MIGHT control this? as for hp improvement by changing plugs, yes any engine will show an improvement if you put new plugs in it. to be accurate i would challenge you to run the new plugs say 10000 miles and take your dyno run. then put in new plugs run them 10000 miles and take your dyno run, most likely the runs will be extremely close in terms of hp/torque. the only reason you would need more voltage at the plug is if you increase cylinder pressures (e.g. supercharger,turbocharger,nitrous) since you are not increasing cylinder pressures in a N/A engine, and the original configuration is not having any problems igniting the air/fuel mixture then you should not see any significant results. heck if you were going to do this upgrade, then go buy a good set of wires and cut them to length and terminate them yourself. then go buy some iridium plugs and install them. you should be able to reproduce the same effect of evosport for alot less money.

just my opinion.