amb9800

I can tell you that you'd be quite in the minority among buyers who consider an S350 for budget reasons. If money is important, then obviously they're not going to waste $10-20k in depreciation figures for a new car off the lot versus one with <5k miles on it.

The point is that yes, you might have some people who want a short wheelbase S-Class, but the large cost difference between a comparable E-Class and the S350 will deter most people who are considering the financial aspect of it. That it gets worse gas mileage than even an S430 is embarrassing, but it's even worse when you look at the E-Class. The E350 is not only more fuel efficient but also faster than the S430, and costs nearly $30K less. The E320 CDI is also a very good option, given its far better fuel efficiency and the nice torque figures (more than even the 5.0L gas V8).

The other thing to consider is that you're looking at people who are fixed on buying only an MB. How many people are you going to find who want an S-Class but don't want it long, who like fuel efficiency but don't care about the fact that the 350 in the S is actually less fuel efficient than V8 offerings, added to its slower performance throughout, who don't mind the large price step over an E-Class and higher running costs, and who are not willing to buy anything but an MB? With Lexus' LS430 available for less than the cost of a new S350, with much better performance (0-60 5.9 sec (vs. 7.6), matching figures throughout), better fuel efficiency (18/25), more space in the rear (yet shorter wheelbase and overall length), longer warranty, lower maintenance costs, and better reliability, in addition to other factors (such as far better dealers, at least here in NY), why would a typical buyer in that market even consider an S350?

I know it's probably not a good idea to say this in an S-Class forum, but if you sit in an LS and drive it, most would tend to agree that the overall experience is much richer -- the interior has much better materials throughout, with a higher-quality feel, and for the money you get a lot more than with the S-Class. I was recently checking out an S600, and while the performance is quite nice (to say the least ), these things are applicable there too. While I prefer the exterior design of the S-Class over the LS (basically W140 derivative with a bit of a Lexus look), everything else is subjectively and objectively quite strong in the LS in a comparison versus the W220. Yes, one factor certainly is that the 220 is an old design and that it'll take MB a new generation to match the rest of the market (LS, A8, perhaps even the 7), but the fact is that if you're looking at the current S-Class (and especially now this SWB S350), all of these issues are there.

amb9800

Sure, I can understand that there will be some niche buyers who want a shorter S-Class and are willing to pay the price premium for that (over an E-Class or a Lexus LS), but my point is that not many people in the market would do that. If they're going to spend $80K on an S-Class, they might as well get the full car, not the smaller, slower, and less fuel-efficent model...

braverichard

And what evidence do you have to support that they are only niche buyers? I know two people who would fit that audience, and we already have one more person on this forum who would. That's three without even searching. Hey, during my college years I worked as a sales man for a Ford dealership. I know it was just Ford, but still it was a car dealership. You'll be surprised with the huge amounts of compromises people make when they purchase cars. "Oh... it rides nice... but it's too long... I guess that's my best option so I'll take it." I know I heard these sorts of statements millions of times over and over again. We had many people walk away because of some car configuration they wanted which wasn't being produced. These people aren't few. Human beings make compromises all the time, but having sold cars I know the steps they take before they make those compromises.

Sorry but your posts obviously are based purely on theory. I have the experience of selling cars and I can't tell you that you're looking at the entire picture incorrectly. You just have no idea of how many sales myself and my colleagues lost as salesmen due to your so-called "niche" buyers. I'd really be surprised if you say you've sold cars and still think that way.

amb9800

That's not very meaningful -- a couple friends of yours and people on an S-Class forum who are reading a thread on the S350 who have decided to post here...

You're only taking into account one factor there - the length of the car, which is the physical difference between the SWB S350 and the rest of the models. But what I'm saying is that there are many other factors involved - the less powerful and less efficient drivetrain, the cost, lack of options flexibility (e.g. no 4Matic), etc. will make the S350 a less attractive option than an E or regular S-Class for mainstream buyers. People certainly make compromises when buying a car, but the key is that it's not like they're just saying - Oh, I want my S500 to be a bit shorter - and getting that. Going with the S350, they're compromising quite a bit. Sure, people will do that, but my point is that the numbers will not reach anywhere close to the number who would, in that situation (looking for something a bit smaller), go for a loaded E-Class (E500 or maybe a 350 / 320 CDI) or just go ahead with the regular S-Classes. And for buyers doing it for other reasons (e.g. purchase cost), they again just fall into the two categories I mentioned previously.

mbman002

We drive a facelift S320 CDI, what's the problem with that ?

We are faster than 80-90% of the fellow car-owners in Belgium.

did you know you can buy a S280 in the UK ?

edit: SWB S-classes in Europe are already lengthy cars to park in the parking lots. LWB is the exception.

braverichard

Not only did you not answer my question, but you're stating stuff again you can't prove. You've heard the last from me on this subject.

Cheers,

Richard

Incendiary

Maybe we should just wait for the sales figures to start coming in before making any unfounded conclusions...

amb9800

I don't know what you're talking about. The car is not out on the market in full force (though it may never be, given the factors I mentioned), so neither of us has any quantitative "proof." But I have stated many reasons for what I have said. A couple of your friends being interested in an S350 or a couple people interested in one here in this thread are no proof of what you're saying.

TiMerc

Its just a bit of market segmentation. All the fuss is very amusing. Over here you can get the same engine in the SL... the SL350 (you'll never see one badged as such though!!!!!) which is actually very popular.

superflysocal

You are missing the boat here. The S350 is 66k + tax. Even without any options, it comes pretty loaded including Nav, sunroof, rear sunscreen, etc. If you load up a E500, it will be at least 63k + tax (I know because that's what I almost did). 3k more to go from middle of road sedan chassis to flagship model chassis. Yes you can talk about mechanics (5.0 vs. 3.7 L, etc.) all you want but one of the main reason people buy MB is status, and there are people who will pay 3-5k more to go from E to S regardless of engine.

Honestly, as nice as an E class is, there is just something about seeing an S class pulling up, no matter if you know it will be discontinued next year, or it's a SWB, or it's 3.7L instead of 5.0L....it's still an S class.

I can see the husband wife scenario: "Wife: That S is so nice but it's too long honey and too expensive. Oh they make a shorter version now? And it's only a little more than the E we were thinking of getting?....oooh."

amb9800

We don't get the SL350 in the US - because MB thinks it'll cannibalize sales from the SLK and perhaps CLK as well, plus the potential for the lower performance to damage the image of the SL, etc. It is interesting, though, because MBUSA used to sell the SL320 (R129) right up through '96-'97. I guess things have changed quite a bit since then.

amb9800

I wouldn't necessarily compare an S350 to an E500 (given the vast difference in performance). The new E350 is a better counterpart in the E-Class range -- with a lower cost - you're at $50k to start, option it out, and it'll be quite a bit under what an S350 would be -- not just $3-5k. If you go for an E500, yes, the price is closer to that of an S350, but for that you get the V8 -- it's a different matter altogether.

As for buying an MB as a status symbol, yes, that's one reason to buy an MB, but the question is how many people are going to look at only the status part of it or some other single aspect and not the price, performance, efficiency, etc. disadvantages that you get by going for the S350?

I can see what you're saying, but at least IMO, the S-Class is looking very outdated nowadays. While I guess the exterior design is still elegant, it doesn't really stand out anymore, and it really doesn't have much more road presence than an E-Class. Even cars like the Lexus LS have nearly the same presence. The W140, on the other hand, has much more road presence. The 140 is precisely what came to my mind when you mentioned "there is just something about seeing an S class pulling up."

Yes, but at some point they would have to consider all of the other things that come along with the S350. And if they were thinking about an E-Class, chances are they would be looking at an E350, and not a 500 (being that the only major difference between the two is the engine, and if they're looking at the S350 then performance doesn't really matter to them), so the price difference is not so small.

Anyway, most of this is purely subjective. It just really depends on what you're looking for and why you're getting an S-Class. Based on that, the SWB 350 may be something that some people might want. All I'm saying is that I don't think that's going to be a large number of people sales-wise. That's what I've said above as well.

superflysocal

You were the one comparing the S350 vs. an mid or upper range E-class, which to me would be an E500, not the V6.

Definitely subjective. An E-class (no matter what generation) having more presence than an S-class? You do remember you are in the S-class forum, right? As outdated as you might think an w220 is, it has the road presence because it is the most current model of there flagship sedan. I honestly liked the w211 when it first came out, but it seems evryone and there mothers and daughters have one. I see it more on the road than the W220, despite the latter being a much older design.

I am not suggesting by any means the S350 will take over the E in sales, nor does MB mean to achieve this. I am sure they are only producing a limited number of these, but I definitely see where MB is going with this and I am sure they will achieve there goal.

btw, my dealer (supposedly the biggest dealer in Texas) says they have only 2 of the S350 in stock..don't know how many they had in the first place, though. So they are either not making a lot of these or they are selling.

Last thing to consider, there will only be one year of release of a SWB w220 (at least in the States) which could translate to semi-collector status like the E class coupe and convertible of the 90's (talking about road presence)...probably not but just a thought.

amb9800

That would also include a loaded 350 (the 'mid' part of it ).

Yeah, as I mentioned above, this whole topic is quite subjective - depends on personal needs and what you're looking at an S-Class for.

Well I wouldn't say it has more presence than the S, it's just that the S doesn't have all that much more than it. Both are kind of unconspicuous - the E because of its relatively plain look (at least the 320 without any appearance options) and the S due to its old design.

Well my dealer (Rallye) has a couple in. They might have a couple more (given that they've been mailing out these cards for people to come see the car), but if so, they're all probably in the very very back somewhere -- the front space is taken up by the cars they want people to see and actually end up buying -- the AMG's, Maybachs, SLR, etc. lol.

I guess due to the numbers, but for other reasons that would be kind of hard to imagine. The E-class coupe was unique in a lot of other ways -- e.g. besides the S-class coupe / later CL, it was MB's only 2+2 type sports car at the time, and it looked pretty good too.