They Treat You Wrong At The Dealer...Racism
Banned
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,640
Likes: 13
From: NYC
2014 S550
Funny thing is that anytime a minority is told NO - automatically, they assume it is because of racism.
Im Jewish and once, my MB Service Rep (who is Asian) wasnt able to get me a loaner since they were all out with other customers.... obviously he is a **** because of that! right?!
GROW UP! Besides..... I didnt realize Dominicans were allowed to Drive S Classes..........
Im Jewish and once, my MB Service Rep (who is Asian) wasnt able to get me a loaner since they were all out with other customers.... obviously he is a **** because of that! right?!
GROW UP! Besides..... I didnt realize Dominicans were allowed to Drive S Classes..........
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,063
Likes: 26
From: Tampa, FL
2005 S500 4-Matic, 1978 450SL
S500 Man,
Despite the nasty nature of some of the replies here - which should embarrass the folks who wrote them - I will say that you were off the beam about racism. I have spent the last 15 years in the field of law dealing specifically with illegal discrimination of all kinds, including racial discrimination. I am tempted to write out the legal analysis of your situation, even though its primary use for many would be bedtime reading to get to sleep quickly. The short answer is, your facts do not support a charge of racism, and a reasonable analysis on your part would prevent any feeling of it as well. But please read on - I have some thoughts that might help you for a long time to come.
First the legal stuff regarding discrimination (racism). You fail to establish that you were treated "differently" than anyone else. The contributors who responded were plainly not afforded their selection of cars - most didn't even get a Mercedes (and my own experience mirrors theirs). One simply doesn't have a legal right to walk onto a lot and choose from demonstrators for a loaner. So first, you have not established that you were treated differently from anyone else, especially (in your case) on the basis of your race or national origin. It's the first thing you'd have to establish (called in law the prima facie case). If you fail there in law, you lose. In life, it means you really didn't have anything to complain about.
Second, a dealer may choose to provide a demonstrator as a loaner - but he may wish to reserve his best for his best customers as determined by their purchase history (or anything else, as long as it is not one of the seven bases of illegal discrimination). The owner of a $300,000 Maybach is likely to get the better loaner. The dealer who has been talking to a customer about an upgrade trade may be aware the customer's car is coming in for service, and try to hold his best back to let him drive to encourage the trade. Alternatively, the dealer may have sold the car already on a "demonstrator" program to give a customer a good price, and has agreed not to use it as a loaner (a term I extracted when I bought my last Audi - had to leave it with the dealer for 90 days, but he lent it only as a demonstrator to his best customers - not as a loaner to whomever came in. The car had 386 miles when I picked it up at a $6,000 discount). As you can tell, a demonstrator (usually a car driven by company people, titled to the company, required to be sold as a used car at a predetermined mileage, usually at a discount with a contribution to price by the manufacturer) may or may not even be in the dealer's loaner program, and a car with 30 miles on it may be neither a demonstrator nor a loaner. Last, you are young - and in the group of drivers most likely to have an accident in the dealer's car. All of these and potentially many more reasons would provide a "nondiscriminatory basis" for the action the dealer took. If the dealer had such a reason, it would trump the prima facie case - again, you lose. To win after that, you'd have to show that the dealer was lying about the reasons, and you'd have to do it convincingly (called "demonstrating pretext"); that's often very hard to do. In life, it means listen to the other guy a little - he may actually have a good and valid reason for what he did.
All that is legal gobbledygook for the fact that the dealer didn't owe you your choice of loaners or other cars on his lot, and you had no business thinking he did. It's not discrimination - you simply didn't get what you wanted.
OK, so I wrote the brief legal analysis (a miracle for me to be brief). However, and here's the good stuff - the pattern of the analysis can serve you well in life. When you encounter discrimination, or think you do, it is far more likely to exact an emotional toll that drains and eats at you, than to cause you to run to a lawyer. But if you first look to see whether, indeed, you have been treated differently than others, you will more often than not find out you weren't. If you were treated differently, look first for the reason that may be valid - cultivating the wealthy customer who may buy his next Maybach from you is simply not illegal anywhere (and by the way, in Baltimore, DC and Tampa where I have lived recently, many of those wealthy customers are minority doctors, lawyers, executives, and business people as well as professional athletes). Risk avoidance because you are in a high risk category of drivers because of your age is also not illegal. The dealer has no way to judge how mature a driver you are. Don't forget - it is his car, his property, that you want to borrow.
Lastly, if you think the attitude of a clerk or service person toward you is bad, remember: It is that person's problem, not yours. You aren't the bad actor - they are. You'll probably do more to change their mind about whatever bothers them by acting maturely and not letting them get your goat. If the actions were bad or blatant, stay under control and take it up quietly with their supervisor. Most folks are in business to make money, and realize that the only color that counts is green. They aren't trying to chase customers off. And when you leave - shrug it off. You do the right thing, you win. It will help your sanity.
I am white. I have been married to a wonderful black woman for nearly 20 years. We have been through the mill together, and through the analysis above I am passing on her techniques for handling matters. She has a very high genius level IQ, and in a very technical field often has to deal with people who immediately assume she is inferior or merely got there as a "token." The initial response of some is to assume she couldn't know very much. Yes, it has bothered her - a lot. But she has used the techniques and analysis I mention, and it helps - a lot. Many times she has found that her initial belief of discrimination was wrong (sometimes it was exactly right). But it helped her to navigate the shoals, and determine who she could trust and rely on, or not. She has had a very successful military career, working as a unit commander, a Colonel on the staff of the Secretary of Defense, and as a highly paid civilian consultant working directly for an Undersecretary of Defense. She is working in matters of broader scope even today, and in very high demand for her skills - but often still has to overcome initial skepticism. She does it, though, by keeping her cool and applying the knowledge she is paid for - and lets the results do the talking. Today, her results speak to very high level people all over the country, and overseas. She has changed many minds along the way, sometimes not even being aware until later that she had. She couldn't always overcome another's bias - but again, it was the other person's problem, not hers. She focuses on the task at hand, puts the garbage aside, and gets the job done. That's how one does it.
Good luck to you. I hope this makes more sense than some of the other input.
Despite the nasty nature of some of the replies here - which should embarrass the folks who wrote them - I will say that you were off the beam about racism. I have spent the last 15 years in the field of law dealing specifically with illegal discrimination of all kinds, including racial discrimination. I am tempted to write out the legal analysis of your situation, even though its primary use for many would be bedtime reading to get to sleep quickly. The short answer is, your facts do not support a charge of racism, and a reasonable analysis on your part would prevent any feeling of it as well. But please read on - I have some thoughts that might help you for a long time to come.
First the legal stuff regarding discrimination (racism). You fail to establish that you were treated "differently" than anyone else. The contributors who responded were plainly not afforded their selection of cars - most didn't even get a Mercedes (and my own experience mirrors theirs). One simply doesn't have a legal right to walk onto a lot and choose from demonstrators for a loaner. So first, you have not established that you were treated differently from anyone else, especially (in your case) on the basis of your race or national origin. It's the first thing you'd have to establish (called in law the prima facie case). If you fail there in law, you lose. In life, it means you really didn't have anything to complain about.
Second, a dealer may choose to provide a demonstrator as a loaner - but he may wish to reserve his best for his best customers as determined by their purchase history (or anything else, as long as it is not one of the seven bases of illegal discrimination). The owner of a $300,000 Maybach is likely to get the better loaner. The dealer who has been talking to a customer about an upgrade trade may be aware the customer's car is coming in for service, and try to hold his best back to let him drive to encourage the trade. Alternatively, the dealer may have sold the car already on a "demonstrator" program to give a customer a good price, and has agreed not to use it as a loaner (a term I extracted when I bought my last Audi - had to leave it with the dealer for 90 days, but he lent it only as a demonstrator to his best customers - not as a loaner to whomever came in. The car had 386 miles when I picked it up at a $6,000 discount). As you can tell, a demonstrator (usually a car driven by company people, titled to the company, required to be sold as a used car at a predetermined mileage, usually at a discount with a contribution to price by the manufacturer) may or may not even be in the dealer's loaner program, and a car with 30 miles on it may be neither a demonstrator nor a loaner. Last, you are young - and in the group of drivers most likely to have an accident in the dealer's car. All of these and potentially many more reasons would provide a "nondiscriminatory basis" for the action the dealer took. If the dealer had such a reason, it would trump the prima facie case - again, you lose. To win after that, you'd have to show that the dealer was lying about the reasons, and you'd have to do it convincingly (called "demonstrating pretext"); that's often very hard to do. In life, it means listen to the other guy a little - he may actually have a good and valid reason for what he did.
All that is legal gobbledygook for the fact that the dealer didn't owe you your choice of loaners or other cars on his lot, and you had no business thinking he did. It's not discrimination - you simply didn't get what you wanted.
OK, so I wrote the brief legal analysis (a miracle for me to be brief). However, and here's the good stuff - the pattern of the analysis can serve you well in life. When you encounter discrimination, or think you do, it is far more likely to exact an emotional toll that drains and eats at you, than to cause you to run to a lawyer. But if you first look to see whether, indeed, you have been treated differently than others, you will more often than not find out you weren't. If you were treated differently, look first for the reason that may be valid - cultivating the wealthy customer who may buy his next Maybach from you is simply not illegal anywhere (and by the way, in Baltimore, DC and Tampa where I have lived recently, many of those wealthy customers are minority doctors, lawyers, executives, and business people as well as professional athletes). Risk avoidance because you are in a high risk category of drivers because of your age is also not illegal. The dealer has no way to judge how mature a driver you are. Don't forget - it is his car, his property, that you want to borrow.
Lastly, if you think the attitude of a clerk or service person toward you is bad, remember: It is that person's problem, not yours. You aren't the bad actor - they are. You'll probably do more to change their mind about whatever bothers them by acting maturely and not letting them get your goat. If the actions were bad or blatant, stay under control and take it up quietly with their supervisor. Most folks are in business to make money, and realize that the only color that counts is green. They aren't trying to chase customers off. And when you leave - shrug it off. You do the right thing, you win. It will help your sanity.
I am white. I have been married to a wonderful black woman for nearly 20 years. We have been through the mill together, and through the analysis above I am passing on her techniques for handling matters. She has a very high genius level IQ, and in a very technical field often has to deal with people who immediately assume she is inferior or merely got there as a "token." The initial response of some is to assume she couldn't know very much. Yes, it has bothered her - a lot. But she has used the techniques and analysis I mention, and it helps - a lot. Many times she has found that her initial belief of discrimination was wrong (sometimes it was exactly right). But it helped her to navigate the shoals, and determine who she could trust and rely on, or not. She has had a very successful military career, working as a unit commander, a Colonel on the staff of the Secretary of Defense, and as a highly paid civilian consultant working directly for an Undersecretary of Defense. She is working in matters of broader scope even today, and in very high demand for her skills - but often still has to overcome initial skepticism. She does it, though, by keeping her cool and applying the knowledge she is paid for - and lets the results do the talking. Today, her results speak to very high level people all over the country, and overseas. She has changed many minds along the way, sometimes not even being aware until later that she had. She couldn't always overcome another's bias - but again, it was the other person's problem, not hers. She focuses on the task at hand, puts the garbage aside, and gets the job done. That's how one does it.
Good luck to you. I hope this makes more sense than some of the other input.
Last edited by Skylaw; Mar 15, 2007 at 03:47 PM.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Chicopee Ma
White S63 AMG W/Designo Interior
Thanks, that definitely made a lot more sense....The Reason why i felt i was treated wrong was because, I Was there for 10 minutes, and another lady walked in with her 2000 ML430, and was treated in a better manner, i might not have explained the whole situation correctly though. Its over now, and i will defnitely take your advice, thanks a lot.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,063
Likes: 26
From: Tampa, FL
2005 S500 4-Matic, 1978 450SL
Glad it's over. You'll be better for it.
To follow up on and cement what I said - some considerations concerning the woman who was treated better (let's accept at face value that she was treated better). What do you know about her? Was she a long term customer? A personal friend of the person you dealt with? Wife of the owner? Someone looking to trade in the near future for a car like that black car you wanted? The wife of that hypothetical Maybach owner? (Maybe her other car was the Maybach). Or was she someone who was happy to have a free Mercedes loaner at all, rather than one of a specific color, and who had been so in the past?
Or did you see the dealer rep treat two successive black or foreign born customers badly for no apparent reason, then welcome a white person with open arms?
There are a lot of things to consider before one defaults to a conclusion of racial discrimination, and that could be true even if they did treat her differently than you. That's what the more rational of the prior responses were driving at.
I was at my dealership in Baltimore one day when a recent new Maybach purchaser came in. My S500 was in the shop, and I was browsing the showroom while waiting for it. The difference in the way he was greeted and the way I was, was immense - but all of us there at the time were white guys. I was in the dealership in Arlington, VA for the same reason some years later. The black dude in hip hop jeans and a sweat shirt looking at the McLaren on display got a LOT more solicitous attention than I did, both in the showroom and at the service desk. He was a past and frequent customer, a member of the Washington Redskins. Chances were far greater that he, rather than I, would buy that $500,000 McLaren, and the staff responded accordingly.
As I said - the color that counts is green.
To follow up on and cement what I said - some considerations concerning the woman who was treated better (let's accept at face value that she was treated better). What do you know about her? Was she a long term customer? A personal friend of the person you dealt with? Wife of the owner? Someone looking to trade in the near future for a car like that black car you wanted? The wife of that hypothetical Maybach owner? (Maybe her other car was the Maybach). Or was she someone who was happy to have a free Mercedes loaner at all, rather than one of a specific color, and who had been so in the past?
Or did you see the dealer rep treat two successive black or foreign born customers badly for no apparent reason, then welcome a white person with open arms?
There are a lot of things to consider before one defaults to a conclusion of racial discrimination, and that could be true even if they did treat her differently than you. That's what the more rational of the prior responses were driving at.
I was at my dealership in Baltimore one day when a recent new Maybach purchaser came in. My S500 was in the shop, and I was browsing the showroom while waiting for it. The difference in the way he was greeted and the way I was, was immense - but all of us there at the time were white guys. I was in the dealership in Arlington, VA for the same reason some years later. The black dude in hip hop jeans and a sweat shirt looking at the McLaren on display got a LOT more solicitous attention than I did, both in the showroom and at the service desk. He was a past and frequent customer, a member of the Washington Redskins. Chances were far greater that he, rather than I, would buy that $500,000 McLaren, and the staff responded accordingly.
As I said - the color that counts is green.
Last edited by Skylaw; Mar 15, 2007 at 04:01 PM.
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Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 18,414
Likes: 6
From: West Michigan
2007 E63
Thanks, that definitely made a lot more sense....The Reason why i felt i was treated wrong was because, I Was there for 10 minutes, and another lady walked in with her 2000 ML430, and was treated in a better manner, i might not have explained the whole situation correctly though. Its over now, and i will defnitely take your advice, thanks a lot.
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
From: Florida
Don't have a Mercedes right now...
Also, you should know that 'in general' many people in many situation are getting mistreated, if you are 'white' you get mad and call the guy 'a$$hole' if you are black, you always assume that he is a racist.
Junior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
09 e63s, 12 FF
This is all pretty funny stuff. Amazing this thread is still going.
To have some real fun with testing out dealership behavior, drive a real heap next time you go in to test drive a high-line. I love doing that.
I have the "ultimate redneck truck", since we're talking about stereotypes, racism, etc. Its an old Chevy Diesel Long Bed complete with peeling black window tint, HD springs in the back so the ***-end is cranked up in the air, a good deep body-long key mark on the passenger side, and ... chrome rear bumper, and its originally from Texas! Its great.
I drive it, always, to highline dealers. It gets me to the truly good sales people I think. The people that might half care. (Note I said : Half-we're still talking about car salespeople here.)
I did this when I bought my new E-Class last year. Pulling up in the diesel truck scared all of the sales people away, the person that I spoke to over the phone actually told me that I she hoped I would call in to make an appointment with her first. One older guy was there and was interested in talking with me. We test drive the car he had, I was really pleased (still am - love the little car) and after a few minutes we were looking for the same car in another color from their available inventory. We were done and wrapped up in perhaps 30 minutes. I came back to pick up the car, again in my truck. I think it really freaked out the salespeople that someone driving a beat down redneck truck actually bought something - let along a new MB - but in doing all that I probably ended up working with the best salesperson at the dealership.
Stereotypes, racism, even judging a potential customer by the car their driving can and does happen. Though I believe they will judge more harshly on what you drive in, than what you look like
.
I love my truck!
Oh, by the way, the only way I can get a loaner out of my MB dealer generally is to *****. It's just a royal pain in the ***! Why that is, I don't know. There are plenty of lower-line car dealers that provide loaners without issue. When I do get a loaner, it is almost always an older BMW 3 Series coupe.
To have some real fun with testing out dealership behavior, drive a real heap next time you go in to test drive a high-line. I love doing that.
I have the "ultimate redneck truck", since we're talking about stereotypes, racism, etc. Its an old Chevy Diesel Long Bed complete with peeling black window tint, HD springs in the back so the ***-end is cranked up in the air, a good deep body-long key mark on the passenger side, and ... chrome rear bumper, and its originally from Texas! Its great.
I drive it, always, to highline dealers. It gets me to the truly good sales people I think. The people that might half care. (Note I said : Half-we're still talking about car salespeople here.)
I did this when I bought my new E-Class last year. Pulling up in the diesel truck scared all of the sales people away, the person that I spoke to over the phone actually told me that I she hoped I would call in to make an appointment with her first. One older guy was there and was interested in talking with me. We test drive the car he had, I was really pleased (still am - love the little car) and after a few minutes we were looking for the same car in another color from their available inventory. We were done and wrapped up in perhaps 30 minutes. I came back to pick up the car, again in my truck. I think it really freaked out the salespeople that someone driving a beat down redneck truck actually bought something - let along a new MB - but in doing all that I probably ended up working with the best salesperson at the dealership.
Stereotypes, racism, even judging a potential customer by the car their driving can and does happen. Though I believe they will judge more harshly on what you drive in, than what you look like
.I love my truck!
Oh, by the way, the only way I can get a loaner out of my MB dealer generally is to *****. It's just a royal pain in the ***! Why that is, I don't know. There are plenty of lower-line car dealers that provide loaners without issue. When I do get a loaner, it is almost always an older BMW 3 Series coupe.
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From: NYC/FT Lauderdale
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: Tampa, FL
2005 S500 4-Matic, 1978 450SL
Good insights, Luke. I do note that in some areas, salespeople are a little less inclined to judge folks by their jeans or age - there are plenty of folks who "dress down" when car shopping, who can pay cash for that Benz - and the better sales people have caught on. The teen may have Dad right behind him, too. In addition, when my wife and I are car shopping, the salesman who ignores her and greets me is dead meat.
With respect to what you drive up in, the reverse can work in the right situation. I had leased a 1997 Audi A4, and at lease end was turning it in to purchase an A6 twin turbo. The A4 had developed a problem I recognized as a failing CV joint on the "propeller shaft" (one of the drive shafts of the Quattro drive system). I had the same thing happen to me in a 5000S Quattro because of a bad engine mount - twice - so knew the sound. I had reported the problem at every service since 25000 miles, but the dealer could find nothing even though I told them exactly what it was. The service writer was upset that I would come in and pinpoint a problem on the initial complaint (I didn't do flight test in my USAF career for nothing). We didn't get along. I didn't like her, she didn't like me (and she always greeted other customers much more nicely; and I'm sure my demeanor was also better with the other service writer). Finally, one mechanic heard the sound I was talking about when we passed under a series of overpasses, windows open, and admittted in the record and before warranty expiration that there was a noise and it sounded drive train related (why they never stethoscoped it on a rack escapes me).
A week before turning the just out-of-warranty A4 in, the CV joint failed completely - loud clunking, etc. I took the car in, they said it couldn't be driven, gave me a "beater" loaner. Then they tried to nick me for $1300 in repairs. I protested vigorously. Audi of America requested the service records - and the "writer" sent electronic ones without including my reports of the problem or its confirmation! Audi insisted I had to pay. However, I had the paper records.
I asked to speak to the General Manager - he was out, and so was my salesman. Furious, I went to a nearby MB dealership - I was very serious about cancelling the deal on the A6 (which was on the lot - the demo I referred to in the prior post above - had a week to go before its 90 day demo status was up) if they didn't do the right thing. I picked up a loaded CLK Cab for a test drive - and finishing the test, drove it to the Audi dealership. My salesman saw me drive up in it, as I knew he would - and he came over immediately. We got right to the GM, and I laid it out - he had the service department manager (not the writer, who had caused this problem) look at my A4's records. They immediately called Audi of America, which then took care of the A4 repair. Meantime, as I took the CLK back, they got my new A6 ready a week earlier than planned, and I picked it up that afternoon - as a "demonstrator" - they actually didn't want me to pay for it until the 90 days were up.
Unique circumstances - but the car I drove up in during the dispute certainly motivated some of that. It cost a bit more than the A6, but was a competitive car. I don't think I stiffed the MB dealer - I'd have bought the CLK. And when I traded the A6, it was for my first S500.
With respect to what you drive up in, the reverse can work in the right situation. I had leased a 1997 Audi A4, and at lease end was turning it in to purchase an A6 twin turbo. The A4 had developed a problem I recognized as a failing CV joint on the "propeller shaft" (one of the drive shafts of the Quattro drive system). I had the same thing happen to me in a 5000S Quattro because of a bad engine mount - twice - so knew the sound. I had reported the problem at every service since 25000 miles, but the dealer could find nothing even though I told them exactly what it was. The service writer was upset that I would come in and pinpoint a problem on the initial complaint (I didn't do flight test in my USAF career for nothing). We didn't get along. I didn't like her, she didn't like me (and she always greeted other customers much more nicely; and I'm sure my demeanor was also better with the other service writer). Finally, one mechanic heard the sound I was talking about when we passed under a series of overpasses, windows open, and admittted in the record and before warranty expiration that there was a noise and it sounded drive train related (why they never stethoscoped it on a rack escapes me).
A week before turning the just out-of-warranty A4 in, the CV joint failed completely - loud clunking, etc. I took the car in, they said it couldn't be driven, gave me a "beater" loaner. Then they tried to nick me for $1300 in repairs. I protested vigorously. Audi of America requested the service records - and the "writer" sent electronic ones without including my reports of the problem or its confirmation! Audi insisted I had to pay. However, I had the paper records.
I asked to speak to the General Manager - he was out, and so was my salesman. Furious, I went to a nearby MB dealership - I was very serious about cancelling the deal on the A6 (which was on the lot - the demo I referred to in the prior post above - had a week to go before its 90 day demo status was up) if they didn't do the right thing. I picked up a loaded CLK Cab for a test drive - and finishing the test, drove it to the Audi dealership. My salesman saw me drive up in it, as I knew he would - and he came over immediately. We got right to the GM, and I laid it out - he had the service department manager (not the writer, who had caused this problem) look at my A4's records. They immediately called Audi of America, which then took care of the A4 repair. Meantime, as I took the CLK back, they got my new A6 ready a week earlier than planned, and I picked it up that afternoon - as a "demonstrator" - they actually didn't want me to pay for it until the 90 days were up.
Unique circumstances - but the car I drove up in during the dispute certainly motivated some of that. It cost a bit more than the A6, but was a competitive car. I don't think I stiffed the MB dealer - I'd have bought the CLK. And when I traded the A6, it was for my first S500.
Last edited by Skylaw; Mar 17, 2007 at 08:47 AM.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 277
Likes: 1
From: MI
2011 Hyundai Elantra GLS
Since when have people come to expect courtesy from a Mercedes Dealer? Those people are the most pompous POS'es around. Too bad the product is what it is, that's what keeps them in business, not their demeanor.
I remember those times when I also used to think that the car you drive should determine the level of respect you get from others. I am glad I have grown up (a bit) since then. Eve though I bought my car out of pure enthusiasm for MBs and not for status, I still am uncomfortable at times when I pull up somewhere and I get stares that expect me or perceive me to be some kind of cocky individual demanding an entitlement of respect due to my ride
I remember those times when I also used to think that the car you drive should determine the level of respect you get from others. I am glad I have grown up (a bit) since then. Eve though I bought my car out of pure enthusiasm for MBs and not for status, I still am uncomfortable at times when I pull up somewhere and I get stares that expect me or perceive me to be some kind of cocky individual demanding an entitlement of respect due to my ride
