TIME TO COMPLAIN TO NHTSA-AIRMATIC!
07-09-2009, 11:06 AM
#26
ok. Guess what, suspension components wear out. Standard struts will need to be replaced as well. Most early cars can be fixed with a simple strut top seal replacement. The trouble is that people see the car drop, but when it comes up when they start it, they don't fix it, until it burns out the pump or until the strut is completely screwed.
Not to mention, at $400 a pop for replacement struts, who really cares. Thats cheap.
Not to mention, at $400 a pop for replacement struts, who really cares. Thats cheap.
07-09-2009, 11:22 AM
#27
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cars that burn gas
07-09-2009, 12:21 PM
#29
I dunno really, maybe an inch. I just notice the MB star emblem moving up from time to time when I start it. doesn't happen all the time though
07-09-2009, 02:12 PM
#30
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96 and 08 911 turbos
considering you have an 01, I'd take a look at the front strut top epoxy to check for cracks. If you see any, put some soapy water on them, and hit the airmatic raise button to check for leaks.
07-09-2009, 05:59 PM
#31
I have looked before and didn't see any signs of cracking, but I will re-check. Thanks
07-09-2009, 07:48 PM
#32
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S Class 220 & 126; 123
RE: Link posted above by hyperboost (MB Air System Replacement):
I looked at a cherry '01 S500 for sale; but the dealer "happened" to mention that that bad 'ol air system had been "replaced" with "real springs and struts" for only $2,000. Note it doesn't say Bilstein anywhere in the ad. Probably Chinese parts.
Well...one big reason I bought one of these cars is because Rolls Royce owners are fanatical about their air suspensions (but you can get parts for a Mercedes in less than 6 months at a fraction of the price).
I'm not buying the replacement spring/strut pitch...interesting to note it was invented by a goat farmer. It might be a good idea if you carry a lot of goats around, could be real hard on the air system.
I looked at a cherry '01 S500 for sale; but the dealer "happened" to mention that that bad 'ol air system had been "replaced" with "real springs and struts" for only $2,000. Note it doesn't say Bilstein anywhere in the ad. Probably Chinese parts.
Well...one big reason I bought one of these cars is because Rolls Royce owners are fanatical about their air suspensions (but you can get parts for a Mercedes in less than 6 months at a fraction of the price).
I'm not buying the replacement spring/strut pitch...interesting to note it was invented by a goat farmer. It might be a good idea if you carry a lot of goats around, could be real hard on the air system.
09-09-2009, 11:00 AM
#33
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E320 sport
Can you please let me know what the warning signs are of a failing airmatic system? I had the right side go out immediately after installing 4 tires, now my left side when out after geting my tires rotated.
09-09-2009, 08:21 PM
#34
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2005 S500 4-Matic, 1978 450SL
Welcome to the forum. The search tool is your friend.
See http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220...yes-again.html for starters, but there is a LOT more.
See http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220...yes-again.html for starters, but there is a LOT more.
12-28-2009, 09:03 PM
#35
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2001 S500
Airmatic question
ok. Guess what, suspension components wear out. Standard struts will need to be replaced as well. Most early cars can be fixed with a simple strut top seal replacement. The trouble is that people see the car drop, but when it comes up when they start it, they don't fix it, until it burns out the pump or until the strut is completely screwed.
Not to mention, at $400 a pop for replacement struts, who really cares. Thats cheap.
Not to mention, at $400 a pop for replacement struts, who really cares. Thats cheap.
Wait, I thought the car is supposed to lower when you come to a stop and raise as you drive. My car lowers when I shut it off. Isn't that normal? How do you tell and what is normal airmatic pre-failure symptoms?
12-29-2009, 09:24 AM
#36
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96 and 08 911 turbos
my car drops VERY little. In sleep mode or whatever its called, it drops no more than 1/2".
If the car is very low in the morning or after sitting for a while (i.e like 2+ inches lower than driving height), thats a problem. When you start the car and it says airmatic vehicle raising, thats a problem, and when you get red warnings while driving, thats a problem.
If the car is very low in the morning or after sitting for a while (i.e like 2+ inches lower than driving height), thats a problem. When you start the car and it says airmatic vehicle raising, thats a problem, and when you get red warnings while driving, thats a problem.
12-29-2009, 10:53 AM
#37
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2001 S500
Airmatic riddle
my car drops VERY little. In sleep mode or whatever its called, it drops no more than 1/2".
If the car is very low in the morning or after sitting for a while (i.e like 2+ inches lower than driving height), thats a problem. When you start the car and it says airmatic vehicle raising, thats a problem, and when you get red warnings while driving, thats a problem.
If the car is very low in the morning or after sitting for a while (i.e like 2+ inches lower than driving height), thats a problem. When you start the car and it says airmatic vehicle raising, thats a problem, and when you get red warnings while driving, thats a problem.
It seemed like my car rose @2 inches this morning - So I guess that's a problem. What now?
1. Go to the dealer and get it diagnosed?
2. If confirmed that my Airmatic has a "leak -- I do the seal "patch" kit for @500 bucks? (And replace the relay to the Hella one)
Thanks!
Last edited by SWEETS500; 12-29-2009 at 10:54 AM. Reason: Forgot to finish the third sentance.
12-31-2009, 11:51 AM
#39
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2001 S500
Took to an INDY who specializes in Benz's and has the full Star Diagnositc machine. Checked the Airmatic out fully and was told there is no sign of a leak and everything checks out. No Airmatic faults stored in the system either.
Guess I'm ok afterall? But still not sure why my car rises more then it should. could it just be the really cold NJ winter? Any other thoughts?
01-01-2010, 09:23 AM
#40
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2005 S500 4-Matic, 1978 450SL
Two inches is WAY too much of a drop for there not to be a leak, even with wide temperature swings. My car will be about 1/4" lower with a 20 degree drop in temperature, if I park it warm and at normal height. The drop in temperature is more important than the absolute temperature.
Assume this as an hypothetical: You start the car cold, and allow it to rise. Then shut it down. It may release some pressure when you exit (because it rises slightly when you exit, and then adjusts back down to normal height). If you do this at 20 degrees and it stays 20 degrees overnight, there should be almost no drop. Same if you park it at zero. But of you did this at 40 degrees and it went to zero overnight, you could easily expect to see it a half inch lower.
The reason is that at a given pressure, colder air will occupy less volume than warmer air. That's the situation in your airmatic system. The volume in the bags that are part of your struts decreases. When you start it, the ride height sensors will determine that the car is low, and will raise it - usually front first, then the rear will catch up.
Do you drive your car in the "raised" position, using the dashboard switch? That will raise the car nearly 3/4 of an inch, and is not the normal driving position. If you drive it "raised" it will lower to normal height when you park it. If you then experience a large temperature drop (and as the car cools after driving), you will experience more drop - that MAY explain what you are seeing.
Otherwise it sounds like a leak.
Assume this as an hypothetical: You start the car cold, and allow it to rise. Then shut it down. It may release some pressure when you exit (because it rises slightly when you exit, and then adjusts back down to normal height). If you do this at 20 degrees and it stays 20 degrees overnight, there should be almost no drop. Same if you park it at zero. But of you did this at 40 degrees and it went to zero overnight, you could easily expect to see it a half inch lower.
The reason is that at a given pressure, colder air will occupy less volume than warmer air. That's the situation in your airmatic system. The volume in the bags that are part of your struts decreases. When you start it, the ride height sensors will determine that the car is low, and will raise it - usually front first, then the rear will catch up.
Do you drive your car in the "raised" position, using the dashboard switch? That will raise the car nearly 3/4 of an inch, and is not the normal driving position. If you drive it "raised" it will lower to normal height when you park it. If you then experience a large temperature drop (and as the car cools after driving), you will experience more drop - that MAY explain what you are seeing.
Otherwise it sounds like a leak.
Last edited by Skylaw; 01-01-2010 at 08:52 PM.
01-01-2010, 10:13 AM
#41
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2001 S500
Two inches is WAY too much of a drop for there not to be a leak, even with wide temperature swings. My car will be about 1/4" lower with a 20 degree drop in temperature, if I park it warm and at normal height. The drop in temperature is more important than the absolute temperature.
Assume this as an hypothetical: You start the car cold, and allow it to rise. Then shut it down. It may release some pressure when you exit (because it rises slightly when you exit, and it adjusts back down to normal height). If you do this at 20 degrees and it stays 20 degrees overnight, there should be almost no drop. Same if you park it at zero. But of you did this at 40 degrees and it went to zero overnight, you could easily expect to see it a half inch lower.
The reason is that at a given pressure, colder air will occupy less volume than warmer air. That's the situation in your airmatic system. The volume in the bags that are part of your struts decreases. When you start it, the ride height sensors will determine that the car is low, and will raise it - usually front first, then the rear will catch up.
Do you drive your car in the "raised" position, using the dashboard switch? That will raise the car nearly 3/4 of an inch, and is not the normal driving position. If you drive it "raised" it will lower to normal height when you park it. If you then experience a large temperature drop (and as the car cols after driving), you will experience more drop - that MAY explain what you are seeing.
Otherwise it sounds like a leak.
Assume this as an hypothetical: You start the car cold, and allow it to rise. Then shut it down. It may release some pressure when you exit (because it rises slightly when you exit, and it adjusts back down to normal height). If you do this at 20 degrees and it stays 20 degrees overnight, there should be almost no drop. Same if you park it at zero. But of you did this at 40 degrees and it went to zero overnight, you could easily expect to see it a half inch lower.
The reason is that at a given pressure, colder air will occupy less volume than warmer air. That's the situation in your airmatic system. The volume in the bags that are part of your struts decreases. When you start it, the ride height sensors will determine that the car is low, and will raise it - usually front first, then the rear will catch up.
Do you drive your car in the "raised" position, using the dashboard switch? That will raise the car nearly 3/4 of an inch, and is not the normal driving position. If you drive it "raised" it will lower to normal height when you park it. If you then experience a large temperature drop (and as the car cols after driving), you will experience more drop - that MAY explain what you are seeing.
Otherwise it sounds like a leak.
I don't drive in the "raised poition". Car is garage kept. Could be a big difference from outside to inside temp, but then the air would be going from very cold to 20 degrees warmer.
INDY did the soapy bubbles and found nothing. He measured the system using the star diagnositc. He said he could find no leak or voltage irregularities. So now what?
Any idea on how to fix a leak I can't find?
PS. Car had the seal "patch" kit done 10k and two years ago by the PO.
01-01-2010, 10:27 AM
#42
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2001 S500
PSS, I just went into the garage and fabricated a measuring stick with tape and a broom stick. Wouldn't you know that the car has sat for 20+ hours and didn't move a bit...not even a 1mm rise. So now it seems I have a potential random or intermittent "issue". Any ideas?
01-01-2010, 10:31 AM
#43
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2005 S500 4-Matic, 1978 450SL
Two things come to mind:
1) The bubble test was not done in enough places. Did he check the rear struts? The connections at the valve block and at the reservoir? The pneumatic lines to the front and rear struts?
2) A failing airmatic relay (possibly a long shot).
The car just does not lower two inches without something being wrong.
1) The bubble test was not done in enough places. Did he check the rear struts? The connections at the valve block and at the reservoir? The pneumatic lines to the front and rear struts?
2) A failing airmatic relay (possibly a long shot).
The car just does not lower two inches without something being wrong.
01-01-2010, 10:42 AM
#44
there may be nothing wrong... the car will try to level itself and that is sometimes the reason for the drop after shutoff
If he measured with a ruler and it stayed up, there def is no leak, leaks do not come and go, it sounds fine to me
If he measured with a ruler and it stayed up, there def is no leak, leaks do not come and go, it sounds fine to me
01-01-2010, 11:27 AM
#46
in the other thread he created, he said it raised 2 inches, but then dropped an inch to level out. seems like the 2inches commoent is the max raising all the way before leveling.
anyway, there cant be a leak if he measured and it stayed the same since leaks do not come and go, they are always there
anyway, there cant be a leak if he measured and it stayed the same since leaks do not come and go, they are always there
01-01-2010, 12:24 PM
#47
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2005 S500 4-Matic, 1978 450SL
I do recall responding to a thread and discussing that the front will rise first, then seem to lower - and what is actually happening is that the front is rising to a normal level first, then the rear rises and makes the ANGLE of the front decrease - which may look like it is lowering, when it is just leveling out. Perhaps that was his other thread.
Sounds like we need a more accurate problem description.
It is true that a leak won't go away; but the appearance of it can be affected by temperature changes and whether the ride height sensors have recently activated the airmatic pump.
Sounds like we need a more accurate problem description.
It is true that a leak won't go away; but the appearance of it can be affected by temperature changes and whether the ride height sensors have recently activated the airmatic pump.
01-01-2010, 12:54 PM
#48
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2001 S500
First, Thanks to you guys for you help trying to troubleshoot this with me.
Skylaw, the INDY said he did check all four shock(s) individually and measured voltage on each shock too. Not sure about " The connections at the valve block and at the reservoir. The pneumatic lines to the front and rear struts", But from the decription on my receipt - doesn't seem like he went that far based on the charge and time spent. I will follow up with him next week to double check and report back here. Question, are leaks in those components a "easy" or shall I say minor $$$ repair? (I hope so)
Update. I just went back into my garage and tried again. Low and behold the front end now rose. I measured exactly 0.50 of an inch. However, it did seem like the front did NOT go up as much as other times - since this issue has come to my attention. I still think at random times over the past few days the front has seemed to go up as much as two inches (as viewed from the driver seat against the wall through the MB star). However, I'm not satisfied with my "estimate" unless I can get a precise measurement from my measuring stick. So stay tuned.
Any thoughts on the fact that the car didn't raise at all after 20 hours and then raised 0.50 inch after an hour and a half?
Skylaw, the INDY said he did check all four shock(s) individually and measured voltage on each shock too. Not sure about " The connections at the valve block and at the reservoir. The pneumatic lines to the front and rear struts", But from the decription on my receipt - doesn't seem like he went that far based on the charge and time spent. I will follow up with him next week to double check and report back here. Question, are leaks in those components a "easy" or shall I say minor $$$ repair? (I hope so)
Update. I just went back into my garage and tried again. Low and behold the front end now rose. I measured exactly 0.50 of an inch. However, it did seem like the front did NOT go up as much as other times - since this issue has come to my attention. I still think at random times over the past few days the front has seemed to go up as much as two inches (as viewed from the driver seat against the wall through the MB star). However, I'm not satisfied with my "estimate" unless I can get a precise measurement from my measuring stick. So stay tuned.
Any thoughts on the fact that the car didn't raise at all after 20 hours and then raised 0.50 inch after an hour and a half?
01-01-2010, 01:02 PM
#49
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2001 S500
[quote=Skylaw;3877214]Two things come to mind:
2) A failing airmatic relay (possibly a long shot).
Skylaw, I checked my passenger side fuse panel and I do NOT have the Hella relay. It's still the stock OEM (original) unit.
Is #2 above the #0 relay that is well discussed in this forum?
A. Should I consider to troubleshoot with a Hella relay swap?
B. Wouldn't/Shouldn't a failing relay show some fault in the Star Diagnostic evaluation?
C. I've surmised from this forum, that a failing relay will burn out the pump, if there is a Airmatic leak. What does a failing relay (potentially) do if there is no leak?
2) A failing airmatic relay (possibly a long shot).
Skylaw, I checked my passenger side fuse panel and I do NOT have the Hella relay. It's still the stock OEM (original) unit.
Is #2 above the #0 relay that is well discussed in this forum?
A. Should I consider to troubleshoot with a Hella relay swap?
B. Wouldn't/Shouldn't a failing relay show some fault in the Star Diagnostic evaluation?
C. I've surmised from this forum, that a failing relay will burn out the pump, if there is a Airmatic leak. What does a failing relay (potentially) do if there is no leak?
01-01-2010, 08:34 PM
#50
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2005 S500 4-Matic, 1978 450SL
The Airmatic relay IS the "O" relay in the fuse diagram for your car. The "N" relay is for a secondary air pump, which is not the airmatic pump. It is in the passenger side fuse box in the engine compartment. Your fuse diagram is probably wrapped around a tool (perhaps the screwdriver blade) in the spare tire compartment. See http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220...e-diagram.html if you don't have it.
A relay can fail in one of two ways: Open, which will cause your airmatic pump not to operate at all; and Closed, which will cause the pump to run full time and burn out. It can also fail intermittently in either position. I would seriously consider the Hella swap; you need the 4-prong relay, and can get an excellent price right now at http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...nation%20Relay
A failing relay may show during diagnostics only if it is improperly positioned at the time the diagnostics were run. Your problem really doesn't seem consistent; I'd replace the relay.
I check my car's rise the same way you do - against a mark on the garage wall. Be aware though that the initial rise will appear greater than it is, because the front rises first and the front of the hood is forward of the front axle and angled upward; when the rear rises, the front of the hood will seem to lower; it seems to because it is ahead of the pivot point (the front axles) - but the height of the car above the axles actually does not lower. All that is happening is that the angle of the front hood is decreasing. If you really want to measure rise or height, measure from the ground on a vertical line through the center of the wheel.
The measurements for my car are at post #7, http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220...-workshop.html - I measured from the center of the star to minimize any differences due to different tire/wheel combinations. It doesn't matter if your measurements differ slightly from mine - it matters that they are consistent for your car on different days.
Also be sure you are at the same distance from the wall if you use the mark from day to day; the rise may seem different at different distances. My garage is tiny, and I have a laser marking device to help us get my wife's very long Town Car into the garage during severe weather. I have gotten into the habit of using it for my car too, so I am always at the same distance - within an eighth of an inch or so. That's not something I would do just to track my airmatic system - I just use it because it's already there.
Once you have assured yourself that your car is behaving consistently, quit worrying about it - just watch for significant departures from normal, after that. You can see those with the naked eyeball. Once every 6 months to a year, check the upper front struts for cracks in the mastic (post #9, http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220...nt-struts.html). Such cracks could indicate a failing upper seal beneath the mastic. If your upper struts do not have the mastic, look for cracks in the paint in the concentric rings in the sunken portion of the strut mount (around the brass valve). The oldest mounts used to get metal fatigue, which caused the cracks in the paint and ultimately in the metal, causing a leak. As you already know, there are upper seal kits to fix that.
A relay can fail in one of two ways: Open, which will cause your airmatic pump not to operate at all; and Closed, which will cause the pump to run full time and burn out. It can also fail intermittently in either position. I would seriously consider the Hella swap; you need the 4-prong relay, and can get an excellent price right now at http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...nation%20Relay
A failing relay may show during diagnostics only if it is improperly positioned at the time the diagnostics were run. Your problem really doesn't seem consistent; I'd replace the relay.
I check my car's rise the same way you do - against a mark on the garage wall. Be aware though that the initial rise will appear greater than it is, because the front rises first and the front of the hood is forward of the front axle and angled upward; when the rear rises, the front of the hood will seem to lower; it seems to because it is ahead of the pivot point (the front axles) - but the height of the car above the axles actually does not lower. All that is happening is that the angle of the front hood is decreasing. If you really want to measure rise or height, measure from the ground on a vertical line through the center of the wheel.
The measurements for my car are at post #7, http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220...-workshop.html - I measured from the center of the star to minimize any differences due to different tire/wheel combinations. It doesn't matter if your measurements differ slightly from mine - it matters that they are consistent for your car on different days.
Also be sure you are at the same distance from the wall if you use the mark from day to day; the rise may seem different at different distances. My garage is tiny, and I have a laser marking device to help us get my wife's very long Town Car into the garage during severe weather. I have gotten into the habit of using it for my car too, so I am always at the same distance - within an eighth of an inch or so. That's not something I would do just to track my airmatic system - I just use it because it's already there.
Once you have assured yourself that your car is behaving consistently, quit worrying about it - just watch for significant departures from normal, after that. You can see those with the naked eyeball. Once every 6 months to a year, check the upper front struts for cracks in the mastic (post #9, http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220...nt-struts.html). Such cracks could indicate a failing upper seal beneath the mastic. If your upper struts do not have the mastic, look for cracks in the paint in the concentric rings in the sunken portion of the strut mount (around the brass valve). The oldest mounts used to get metal fatigue, which caused the cracks in the paint and ultimately in the metal, causing a leak. As you already know, there are upper seal kits to fix that.
Last edited by Skylaw; 01-02-2010 at 07:22 AM.
