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Yes, I can imagine that driving the car without ABC is a whole new experience. Because you won't have to ever worry about it again. Every time I drive my car, ABC is constantly in my mind, lol. It would be nice if it wasn't.
Anyways, I think I found the perfect solution to this hardline problem. Take a look:
Both are 9.5mm inside diameter, which I belive is enough to match the 10mm needed. They have multiple fittings available, you can customize which fitting is on which end, which I think is amazing. The difference between the two is the pressure rating. I don't think the ps pump puts out anywhere near 330 bar, so I'll go with the 180 bar hose. It is also thinner (17.4mm O.D.). The shortest length the hose comes with is 300mm, which is too long, so I think I'll need around a 100mm length hose. I'm sure it's not a problem If I contact them about it.
Since I haven't been down there yet to look at the gap between the tandem pump steering output and standard ps output, I'm still not entirely sure on which fitting I should use for either end for the best result. Also, do you think a 100mm hose is long enough? That's just less than 4 inches.
If you can get the fittings to match, I think these would work with a 90 degree fitting on each end. There is about 100mm of total distance to make up, and the 90s plus the crimps use up some of that, so you need to figure out how long to make the hose portion. If you jack up the engine and loosen the clamp bolt on the hardline, you can adjust the fit slightly by moving the hardline if needed. You should also specify that the 90's need to be able to spin, before they are tightened, so that they can be clocked properly.
Once the power steering hardline and fluid supply hose were attached, reassembly was otherwise normal. Since I aligned my pump spacers to the inside edge of the pulley on both pumps, I made sure to align the 6 rib belt leaving the rib closest to the radiator unused on all the other accessory pulleys.
After reassembly, I filled the PS reservoir to the top with Pentosin CHF11S, and jacked the front wheels off the ground before starting the engine. Immediately after engine start, I turned the wheel full left and full right and then shut the engine off. After this job, there will be a substantial amount of air in the PS system that must be bled. This needs to be done with no load on the wheels to avoid pump cavitation. After shutoff, I found the reservoir to be nearly empty again, so I refilled it once more. After this first time, it should monitored, but you won't likely suck any air. If you do suck air, you need to do it all over again.
After waiting awhile for air bubbles to settle out of the system, (A couple of hours, and this won't happen while the pump is running) I lowered the car and started her up. Everything works perfectly, just as it should. I've driven it about 200 miles before writing this up, just in case I screwed something up, or the idea didn't work out. From the driver's seat, you would never be able to tell any difference. The power steering functions exactly like it did when running the old tandem pump, the ratios and variable assist seem spot on. There are no odd noises, and the 6 rib belt drives the AC and charging system (the two highest load accessories) with no complaints. In short, it's a custom install that does not have any idiosyncracies or minor niggles to explain away. It works just as intended, and you'd never know unless you needed to replace a belt or something down the road. Result!
Since I've already done all the engineering work, this is actually not too difficult a mod to accomplish on your own V12 if you want to.
What you need:
1) Power steering pump off an air ride V8 car S430/500 (I got a pump off a 2001 S500, I don't know for sure if there are any variations in model years)
I recommend getting a used pump from Ebay or something. You will need the mounting bracket and pulley. New pumps I looked at didn't come with these pieces. My Ebay pump came with everything. Cost: $90 shipped
2) Custom fabricated hydraulic hose modification to original hardline. Cost: $65 + a 12 pack of beer for the shop. Use my pics so they know what you're talking about.
3) 4 spacers, machined from bar stock. I used steel, aluminum would work too, I guess. They are all .750" diameter, and two of them are 1.375" long. The two smaller ones are different thicknesses from each other. I'll edit this later when I find where I wrote the dimensions. All these are gun drilled with a .325" hole down the center to fit an 8mm bolt. You'll also need your version of my good friend Joe with a lathe to make these for you.
4) 3 new mounting bolts, 2x M8x70mm, and 1 M8x60mm, and a couple a washers. About $5 at Lowe's
(The metric hardware selection at Lowe's is way better than Home Depot)
5) Dayco belt part #5060923, about $35, in stock at Autozone.
With the spacers already made and in your hands, you can swap the pumps out fairly quickly. Getting the tandem pump out is the worst part of that job. The most time consuming part is extracting the hardline and having the custom line fabricated. Once you get that back in, easy.
Total cost: About $200, all in.
Hey I have a question about the spacers you did for the ps pump....I'm in the process of doing the exact same thing. Do you happen to have the dimensions of the 2 smaller ones as well?
There seems to be a lot of labor, custom fabrication, and time involved with the mod, however. Do you think it would be easier to get a reman tandem pump for $250 and recirc the abc portion back to the reservoir so the pump will last long only serving as a p/s pump?
See my summary above. If you go with a reman pump, the pump costs $250 (at the minimum) and you still need to engineer and fabricate a recirc line, so you need to add that cost as well. One member here (Cowboy, I think) did it that way, and seems happy with it, so I'm not gonna knock it.
Some reasons I chose to tackle the problem the way I did:
1) Ease of maintenance. Now that the conversion is done, the V8 pump is a piece of cake to change out if necessary at some point in the future. 3 accessible bolts, no jacking the motor, no weird tools or contortions, tons of room to work. I can probably have the pump out of the car in less than 10 minutes. The V8 pump also makes the AC compressor and hoses more accessible if needed. These cars aren't getting younger, and that ABC pump just sucks to work on, always.
2) Cost: I'm in this for around $200 turn key. If I have to fix the power steering again in the future, a brand new V8 pump with a lifetime warranty is much cheaper and easier to find than even the cheapest reman ABC pump. (less than $150 for a life time warranty PS only pump from a V8). I chose to start this project with a used pump, because I wanted all the brackets, reservoir and hoses that came with it to see what I needed to make it all work. Also, I didn't want to spend a lot in case it didn't work.
3) Reliability: Even if you run an ABC pump on recirc, you are still running 2 pumps instead of 1, so you have twice the failure potential, plus the added risk with reman pump quality. The ABC pumps are a known weak point, whereas the regular pumps don't really seem to ever be problematic.
*This could be offset by the possible reduction in service life of the 6 rib belt setup, but that's unknown at this point. It runs all the accessories without complaint so far; I highly doubt it will be an issue.
4) Performance: By going to the V8 pump, you are reducing the accessory drive parasitic load on the engine by a total of one pump. How much is that worth? I have no idea, as I never dyno'd my car before and after. But? Getting rid of a whole pumps worth of drag has to be a good thing.
5) Easy: I already did all the measuring and figuring to engineer this, which took most of the time. To duplicate it, all you have to do is follow my instructions in this thread, and I think it would be cheaper and easier than the recirc option. The only custom stuff is the line mod (which you'd have to do with a recirc anyway), and the spacers. [/QUOTE]
Were you able to provide us all the measurements on the spacers or did I miss it...you said you "had them written down somewhere?"
There seems to be a lot of labor, custom fabrication, and time involved with the mod, however. Do you think it would be easier to get a reman tandem pump for $250 and recirc the abc portion back to the reservoir so the pump will last long only serving as a p/s pump?
See my summary above. If you go with a reman pump, the pump costs $250 (at the minimum) and you still need to engineer and fabricate a recirc line, so you need to add that cost as well. One member here (Cowboy, I think) did it that way, and seems happy with it, so I'm not gonna knock it.
Some reasons I chose to tackle the problem the way I did:
1) Ease of maintenance. Now that the conversion is done, the V8 pump is a piece of cake to change out if necessary at some point in the future. 3 accessible bolts, no jacking the motor, no weird tools or contortions, tons of room to work. I can probably have the pump out of the car in less than 10 minutes. The V8 pump also makes the AC compressor and hoses more accessible if needed. These cars aren't getting younger, and that ABC pump just sucks to work on, always.
2) Cost: I'm in this for around $200 turn key. If I have to fix the power steering again in the future, a brand new V8 pump with a lifetime warranty is much cheaper and easier to find than even the cheapest reman ABC pump. (less than $150 for a life time warranty PS only pump from a V8). I chose to start this project with a used pump, because I wanted all the brackets, reservoir and hoses that came with it to see what I needed to make it all work. Also, I didn't want to spend a lot in case it didn't work.
3) Reliability: Even if you run an ABC pump on recirc, you are still running 2 pumps instead of 1, so you have twice the failure potential, plus the added risk with reman pump quality. The ABC pumps are a known weak point, whereas the regular pumps don't really seem to ever be problematic.
*This could be offset by the possible reduction in service life of the 6 rib belt setup, but that's unknown at this point. It runs all the accessories without complaint so far; I highly doubt it will be an issue.
4) Performance: By going to the V8 pump, you are reducing the accessory drive parasitic load on the engine by a total of one pump. How much is that worth? I have no idea, as I never dyno'd my car before and after. But? Getting rid of a whole pumps worth of drag has to be a good thing.
5) Easy: I already did all the measuring and figuring to engineer this, which took most of the time. To duplicate it, all you have to do is follow my instructions in this thread, and I think it would be cheaper and easier than the recirc option. The only custom stuff is the line mod (which you'd have to do with a recirc anyway), and the spacers. [/QUOTE]
Do you or anyone know how much pressure that new PS pump makes...just wondering if the fabricated extension piece needs to be so sturdy? Wondering if a prefabricated hydraulic line that may be able to bend a little with the right fitting ends would work.
Hey Sebmel123, in response to you PM.
Unfortunately I didn't get any info from cowboyt. Not sure about how to accomplish the ABC tandem pump recirculation fix. I decided to use tenzero's power steering only pump from a S500 solution, and I'm very happy with the result. All his specs were right on and the modification was straight forward. Only difficult thing was removing the PS supply line from the steering rack so I could extend it.
I tried to reply to your PM but the system will not allow me to reply to PM's until I have 10 posts
Hey Sebmel123, in response to you PM.
Unfortunately I didn't get any info from cowboyt. Not sure about how to accomplish the ABC tandem pump recirculation fix. I decided to use tenzero's power steering only pump from a S500 solution, and I'm very happy with the result. All his specs were right on and the modification was straight forward. Only difficult thing was removing the PS supply line from the steering rack so I could extend it.
I tried to reply to your PM but the system will not allow me to reply to PM's until I have 10 posts
I appreciate the response...I too am thinking of going with tenzero's method. And I also was wondering about the hose extension as opposed to removing a portion and having a custom fabrication. So, did you find a piece that you just added to the existing output hose? Also, which struts/coilovers did you go with? What did you use for spacers...would washers stacked up work? Lastly, can you send a few pics of the pump work youu did?
Yes, I can imagine that driving the car without ABC is a whole new experience. Because you won't have to ever worry about it again. Every time I drive my car, ABC is constantly in my mind, lol. It would be nice if it wasn't.
Anyways, I think I found the perfect solution to this hardline problem. Take a look:
Both are 9.5mm inside diameter, which I belive is enough to match the 10mm needed. They have multiple fittings available, you can customize which fitting is on which end, which I think is amazing. The difference between the two is the pressure rating. I don't think the ps pump puts out anywhere near 330 bar, so I'll go with the 180 bar hose. It is also thinner (17.4mm O.D.). The shortest length the hose comes with is 300mm, which is too long, so I think I'll need around a 100mm length hose. I'm sure it's not a problem If I contact them about it.
Since I haven't been down there yet to look at the gap between the tandem pump steering output and standard ps output, I'm still not entirely sure on which fitting I should use for either end for the best result. Also, do you think a 100mm hose is long enough? That's just less than 4 inches.
Did you end up using the hydraulic any of the lines you mentioned .and did they work? If so, do you have couple of pics to share?
If you can get the fittings to match, I think these would work with a 90 degree fitting on each end. There is about 100mm of total distance to make up, and the 90s plus the crimps use up some of that, so you need to figure out how long to make the hose portion. If you jack up the engine and loosen the clamp bolt on the hardline, you can adjust the fit slightly by moving the hardline if needed. You should also specify that the 90's need to be able to spin, before they are tightened, so that they can be clocked properly.
In your pics it looks like a 90 degree on the pump end and a straight fitting on the end that is attached to the existing line...both female...can you clarify why you said "
"with a 90 degree fitting on each end?'
I appreciate the response...I too am thinking of going with tenzero's method. And I also was wondering about the hose extension as opposed to removing a portion and having a custom fabrication. So, did you find a piece that you just added to the existing output hose? Also, which struts/coilovers did you go with? What did you use for spacers...would washers stacked up work? Lastly, can you send a few pics of the pump work youu did?
First of all I have a 2001 S600, so I believe there are subtle differences. Tenzero has a 2004 S600 so I think his procedure would be closer for your 2003 S600 than mine. I would follow his post and use his pictures. I can post some pics for the 2001-2002 S600 guys, but I'm not sure they will be the same for your 2003, the power Steering lines are different I think. Mine didn't look the same as ten zero's. I followed tenzero's post and with a few small modifications, didn't have a problem. It's really not a difficult conversion, mostly because tenzero has doe all the ground work. The most difficult part is getting the old tandem pump out and removing the PS supply line from the rack.
Differences for my 2001:
1. When I mounted the new PS Pump, I didn't need the 3rd spacer split in half, my S600 took 3 spacers ALL the same size. I did't have the bracket tenzero had that causes the need for the 3rd spacer to be split.
2. My PS supply line (steel tubing & hydraulic hose) looked different. I had plenty of hydraulic hose laying down the inside of the fender well to work with, but not much metal tubing to work with at the end of my PS line. I removed the entire Powersteering supply line/hose that goes from the PS Pump to the Rack & Pinion. I then had a hydraulic shop modify the hydraulic hose portion of the line so I could gain 4" of length, 1.5" of hight, and angle the input to better line up with the new pump's input port. The hydraulic shop cut the hydraulic hose portion and "Pressed-On" 2 - 45 degree fittings, one on each side of the place where it was cut. I connected the two coupling fittings together which gave me the additional length, hight, and flexibility I needed to reach the new pump and adjust the angle of the input.
I used a local machine shop to get he spacers made. Just gave them tenzero's specs and they made them for me. $20
Strutmasters conversion i think
So here is my solution to the power steering hard line mismatch. You can see in the photo that I needed to make up about 4 inches between the end of the hard line and the pump output. The hard line has numerous bends and angles in it that carefully route around the turbo and exhaust plumbing, so you can't just pull it up to close the distance. Luckily, I found that there is a joint in the line where the hard line can be separated. This means that I didn't have to remove the whole supply line to the rack (a huge job). The fitting is on the drivers side, just at the end of the heat shield jacket. Using a a nice 3/4" piece of plywood under the oilpan, I jacked the engine up about 2" or so, and removed the hardline. It has to be finagled out, and there is a bracket holding it to the motor that has be removed (1 bolt) but it comes out the top. By the way, there is no room at all to be able to use a flex line to replace this. Hydraulic hose with the correct ID for the fluid flow is just too fat to fit and make the intricate bends the hard line does.
The end closest to the pump has a 90 deg bend where it enters the pump. Basically, I cut the 90 corner out, and was left with about a 1" piece with the Mercedes fitting that screws into the pump, and about 2" of straight line on the end before the next bend. The hydraulic shop brazed a 90 deg fitting to the 1" piece, and a straight fitting on the end of the hard line. In between, they made a 3" piece of hose with corresponding fittings on each end. Since we were operating off of cell phone pics, and weren't exactly sure about the length, they also added extension fittings so I could make it a little longer. (These weren't needed, it fit perfectly) The fittings are loose, so everything can be rotated and clocked just right during install. I finagled the hardline back in, then I plugged the new line into the pump, bent the flex into position on the hardline, and then tightened everything up.
My power steering pump is off an air ride S500, and it came with a pump mounted reservoir. (Bought on Ebay for 90 bucks) On the V12, the S500 reservoir can't be used because the left coilpack is in the way. I had hoped to be able to ditch the giant ABC tank, but I reinstalled it to use the original PS reservoir. I will probably go back and get rid of the ABC tank later. I then found that the supply hose from the V12 reservoir is bent the wrong way to match up to the pump and not interfere with the pulley. After I stared at it for a while, I took the hose off the tank, reversed it, installed it backwards, and it fits perfectly with plenty of clearance for the pulley. Now, all the custom stuff is done, and it's ready for reassembly and shakedown testing. I really think this is going to work!
I have followed your clear instructions and was amazed that I was able to remove the original ABC tandem pump. I have a dedicated PS off a v8, as you do purchased from ebay. My questions are: is it safe to lift the engine up 2" by supporting it from the oil pan? Also, how far down is the existing hard hydraulic line joint...I can't really see where it goes looking at it from the top. Lastly, did you separate it from underneath the car...sounds cramped. I have everything I need, pump, new 6 rib belt, spacers, and re reservoir...just need to extend the existing hard hydraulic line so it reaches the new pump output section...as you said just about 4".
It would be nice if there is a solution to that pesky hardline problem without having to remove, modify, and reinstall it. Sadly no US hardware stores carry metric equipment from my experience, so you can't make something that will be plug and play locally. So our best bet to solve the issue without having to even touch that power steering hardline is to get a custom fabricated extension from an online store that carries and modifies metric equipment that would attach to the end of the current hardline and reach the pump, covering the missing distance. Like TenZero said, two metric 90 degree fittings attached to both the pump and existing hardline with a custom hose in between would work perfectly, but the 90 degree fittings need to be able to rotate before tightened to position them correctly.
It would be nice if there is a solution to that pesky hardline problem without having to remove, modify, and reinstall it. Sadly no US hardware stores carry metric equipment from my experience, so you can't make something that will be plug and play locally. So our best bet to solve the issue without having to even touch that power steering hardline is to get a custom fabricated extension from an online store that carries and modifies metric equipment that would attach to the end of the current hardline and reach the pump, covering the missing distance. Like TenZero said, two metric 90 degree fittings attached to both the pump and existing hardline with a custom hose in between would work perfectly, but the 90 degree fittings need to be able to rotate before tightened to position them correctly.
So, I just had a chance to look further at the hard hydraulic line that falls short when swapping out the abc tandem pump with a v8 PS pump. Much to my surprise, I did not find it difficult to disconnect it from under the car without raising the engine. There was plenty of room...just remove two scews holding it to the frame and disconnect it from the rest of the hose connected to the rack and pinion. Then slowly but surely pull it out from the top. Again, I have an 03 S600.
"Not being hampered by facts, I can discuss the subject freely."
Will the unmodified hard line hook up to the pump if you disconnected it from the hose and moved it further forward? If so, could you take the hose to a hydraulic shop and have a new longer hose section installed between the end fittings?
"Not being hampered by facts, I can discuss the subject freely."
Will the unmodified hard line hook up to the pump if you disconnected it from the hose and moved it further forward? If so, could you take the hose to a hydraulic shop and have a new longer hose section installed between the end fittings?
Once the hard line is disconnect, due to the bends in it and the angle of the end piece, it will not fit without some modification...you would need to bend it quite a bit... possibly beyond the integrity of the tubing for it to work without an extension. If you read Tenzero's section above and look at his pics, it will describe exactly what needs to be done. I found a hydraulic shop near me that can do the extension for $70.
Can you please post pictures of where you disconnected the hardline from under the car? It would be of much help to the rest of us who may tackle this in the future
Also, what were the measurements of the last spacer that TenZero didn't get a change to write down?
Last edited by AlexMercedes; 08-14-2018 at 07:31 PM.
I didn't take pictures when I removed that line. However, I'll try to take some pictures when I reinstall it. As far as the measurements for the spacers are concerned, I haven't actually measured them I have I bawled them I end I will try to measure them before I install the pump
I have a question about this as I'm going through the same conversion on my 2001 s600....so I got the non abc pump...took the old one out...got the spacers made but I'm having a hard time understanding how to get around this hardline...looking at TenZeros pictures and a couple other posts I found...this line is not there. Can someone help me understand what this is and how I go about getting it out of the way/installing this pump properly? i can't seem to find enough info to get around this issue.
I have a question about this as I'm going through the same conversion on my 2001 s600....so I got the non abc pump...took the old one out...got the spacers made but I'm having a hard time understanding how to get around this hardline...looking at TenZeros pictures and a couple other posts I found...this line is not there. Can someone help me understand what this is and how I go about getting it out of the way/installing this pump properly? i can't seem to find enough info to get around this issue.
Not sure, my 03 s600 did not have that. Even so, I remember seeing someone doing the same thing which had taken it out...he had a pic if it. Keep looking through this forum...you'll find something similar.
Well this is the part...I can't seem to find any info on it...its clearly in the way when I put in the new pump. It's a single line I have no idea if its part of the steering system I need to somehow keep or if its a part of ABC that I can just put it aside if I can't take it all out...
Based on the fact the it seems to be connected to a damper or an accumulator, I would say it is part of the ABC system and could be removed.
I think it is. It seems to be a single line going around the transmission, so removing it as one piece without lifting the engine isn't gonna work. I just want to be 100% before I go ahead and cut the hard line...because I can't fit the p/s only pump without it.
I think it is. It seems to be a single line going around the transmission, so removing it as one piece without lifting the engine isn't gonna work. I just want to be 100% before I go ahead and cut the hard line...because I can't fit the p/s only pump without it.
Sorry, was not able to take any pics of that hard PS line. While, I may still get a chance to take a few, it may be a few more days as I need to work out some minor issues.
So, as I mentioned above, I completed my YSR coilover conversion about two weeks ago now. I ordered the 20kg spring rate for the rear coilovers but, I'm discovering that they are a little too stiff for what I'm looking for. I'll be replacing them with 14kg springs in a few days but thought I would see if someone on the forum would be interested in a set of 20kg springs. BTW, these are on a 03 s600. Please PM me if anyone is interested.
I completed my YSR coilover conversion about two weeks ago now. I ordered the 20kg spring rate for the rear coilovers but, I'm discovering that they are a little too stiff for what I'm looking for. I'll be replacing them with 14kg springs in a few days but thought I would see if someone on the forum would be interested in a set of 20kg springs. BTW, these are on a 03 s600. Please PM me if anyone is interested.
I think you should post this one more time, ..... 3 times is most likley not enough!!!!!!!
07-22-2017, 01:31 AM
From the driver's seat, you would never be able to tell any difference. The power steering functions exactly like it did when running the old tandem pump, the ratios and variable assist seem spot on. There are no odd noises, and the 6 rib belt drives the AC and charging system (the two highest load accessories) with no complaints. In short, it's a custom install that does not have any idiosyncracies or minor niggles to explain away. It works just as intended, and you'd never know unless you needed to replace a belt or something down the road. Result!
