Mercedes - quality & reliability problems
11-12-2014, 11:51 AM
#151
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^Exactly. Part of the beauty of an S is that it's loaded with tech that by design is invisible to the user, For example, there's a thread here by a guy who got a red "DRIVE TO WORKSHOP WITHOUT CHANGING GEARS" warning, and the car threw three fault codes. One for the master steering column controller, one for the ignition and key authorization controller, and one for the electronic servo that changes gears. Three (that he knows of) systems in the steering column alone, and that level of complexity runs through the entire car.
We look at the steering column for example and to us it doesn't look substantially different than a steering column in a Toyota, so we presume it's substantially the same and therefore should be similarly reliable. Some believe because of the cost and the fact it's built by Mercedes it will actually be more reliable. That is a fallacy.
It is true that virtually any mechanical issue can be fixed if you can throw enough money at it. The danger zone is when the cost of a repair would represent a large percentage of the car's total value, or even total it. Once an S depreciates out and is in that $20k to $25k value range, it doesn't take much to go upside down.
We look at the steering column for example and to us it doesn't look substantially different than a steering column in a Toyota, so we presume it's substantially the same and therefore should be similarly reliable. Some believe because of the cost and the fact it's built by Mercedes it will actually be more reliable. That is a fallacy.
It is true that virtually any mechanical issue can be fixed if you can throw enough money at it. The danger zone is when the cost of a repair would represent a large percentage of the car's total value, or even total it. Once an S depreciates out and is in that $20k to $25k value range, it doesn't take much to go upside down.
11-12-2014, 11:58 AM
#152
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96 and 08 911 turbos
It is true that virtually any mechanical issue can be fixed if you can throw enough money at it. The danger zone is when the cost of a repair would represent a large percentage of the car's total value, or even total it. Once an S depreciates out and is in that $20k to $25k value range, it doesn't take much to go upside down.
Sure, a $7,000 repair hurts pretty bad on a $25k w221, but realistically, going to a new/barely used 222 is going to cost you another $70k. And when repaired, it will drive nearly as nicely. Yes the new cars are better, but incrementally so.
Thats where I'm at with my w220. Its worth maybe $12k (low miles) and any major repair would be worth at least 20% of its value. But realistically, I'd rather pay that than spend another $30k to get into another car I feel is a serious step up (my w220 is a fully loaded designo car, so its hard to beat).
Given the cost to upgrade (include taxes too), sometimes it makes sense to spend a fair bit to repair the older car.
11-12-2014, 12:17 PM
#153
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W463 G550 / C190 GTC //prev: W204 C63 507 / R170
A Lexus ls460 is no less complex, make no mistake, and far more reliable.
But it won't drive as well or "feel" as great, nor will it look at good. Subjective, but these are the trade offs one must make.
The reliability is reflected in the used values. You can't pick up a low mileage late model ls460 for a reason.
But it won't drive as well or "feel" as great, nor will it look at good. Subjective, but these are the trade offs one must make.
The reliability is reflected in the used values. You can't pick up a low mileage late model ls460 for a reason.
11-12-2014, 12:25 PM
#154
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2007 S600
I totally agree. Until there is something drastically wrong with my 600. And I mean drastically - like a rod through the case, I will continue to maintain it. It's just part of my nature. I like the look of the vehicle. Until something really stirs me up to change, I'm perfectly happy.
My other Mercedes is a 1986 560SEL with 17,600 miles. Another amazing vehicle for its time (my opinion). I suspect in 20 years I will look at the 600 and still think it is an amazing vehicle for its time, gremlins and all. I enjoy driving them both.
My other Mercedes is a 1986 560SEL with 17,600 miles. Another amazing vehicle for its time (my opinion). I suspect in 20 years I will look at the 600 and still think it is an amazing vehicle for its time, gremlins and all. I enjoy driving them both.
11-12-2014, 12:55 PM
#155
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W463 G550 / C190 GTC //prev: W204 C63 507 / R170
Plus, in 20+ years, the S600 - if in good condition - will be worth a lot more than a Lexus LS460 (unless it's the first gen).
11-12-2014, 02:00 PM
#156
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I loved my 05 500, loaded AMG Sport, Black/Java and I was prepared to pay to keep it up, in reasonable increments, but when it ate a $6000 tranny the love affair ended in a hurry. I get the other view, which is, "Could I replace what I love about the car with a newer car for what I would spend for the repair?" Typically "no". My kid brother and I own a speedboat jointly. It's an older boat with a big V8. It blew up, and we replaced the engine because the cost to replace that boat with one with similar performance was over $20k, and the engine was $5k. We got a couple more seasons out of it.
The problem, in the case of a thrown rod, for example is not only do you have a $12,000 car you've invested $20,000 in over the years...your $12,000 car/$20,000 investment is now essentially worthless with a blown engine. Your two choices are to replace the engine, spending four figures plus doubling down essentially against any other major failure, or to sell the car for scrap. Both suck.
I totally understand the mind set, but it's an emotional rather than truly practical approach and those can sometimes be very costly.
The problem, in the case of a thrown rod, for example is not only do you have a $12,000 car you've invested $20,000 in over the years...your $12,000 car/$20,000 investment is now essentially worthless with a blown engine. Your two choices are to replace the engine, spending four figures plus doubling down essentially against any other major failure, or to sell the car for scrap. Both suck.
I totally understand the mind set, but it's an emotional rather than truly practical approach and those can sometimes be very costly.
11-12-2014, 02:07 PM
#157
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A Lexus ls460 is no less complex, make no mistake, and far more reliable.
But it won't drive as well or "feel" as great, nor will it look at good. Subjective, but these are the trade offs one must make.
The reliability is reflected in the used values. You can't pick up a low mileage late model ls460 for a reason.
But it won't drive as well or "feel" as great, nor will it look at good. Subjective, but these are the trade offs one must make.
The reliability is reflected in the used values. You can't pick up a low mileage late model ls460 for a reason.
I drove a nice CPO LS460 when my 500 needed to go. The ride was wallowy and it drove like an old Buick. Nothing about that car was appealing coming from an S Class that was eight years older and three times the miles.
Last edited by Mike5215; 11-12-2014 at 02:09 PM.
11-12-2014, 11:18 PM
#158
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Agree reliability is reflected in the used car values. Not convinced the Lexus is actually as complex. I think Toyota is able to build and sell their car new for 2/3rds the price of an S Class is because they're very good at simulating an S Class experience, but they're not there yet and the reason I think is because of lower complexity. Also, those LS460s don't age well. The interior materials show wear and degradation quickly, and as silly as this sounds, they start to smell "cheap" inside.
I drove a nice CPO LS460 when my 500 needed to go. The ride was wallowy and it drove like an old Buick. Nothing about that car was appealing coming from an S Class that was eight years older and three times the miles.
I drove a nice CPO LS460 when my 500 needed to go. The ride was wallowy and it drove like an old Buick. Nothing about that car was appealing coming from an S Class that was eight years older and three times the miles.
11-17-2014, 11:12 PM
#159
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2005 Mercedes Benz W220 S400
W221
Hello Folks!
I just want to make a statement here.
Im a huge MB fan. I currently own a 2005 W220. Never have had issues of any kind with the car. Im also looking to upgrade to w221 in the near. I also own a 2014 Lexus GX460 and a 2009 Lexus RX350, I have also owned many vehicles from many brands, none of them are a lottery as a MB is. It may be very good or very bad.
Where I live a 2014 S550 is US$180k. No one pays that kind of many to take his car to the shop for anything. For the price your paying it should be flawless. Who cares about the tech if you cant use it?
Some of us just use the high tech failure features as an excuse for a car that should have been flawless. Not the poster boy for internet forums.
We just buy the car because we like it not because its good.
PS> I hate my RX and will sell it soon. Even though it has been flawless and has only been to the shop for service.
I just want to make a statement here.
Im a huge MB fan. I currently own a 2005 W220. Never have had issues of any kind with the car. Im also looking to upgrade to w221 in the near. I also own a 2014 Lexus GX460 and a 2009 Lexus RX350, I have also owned many vehicles from many brands, none of them are a lottery as a MB is. It may be very good or very bad.
Where I live a 2014 S550 is US$180k. No one pays that kind of many to take his car to the shop for anything. For the price your paying it should be flawless. Who cares about the tech if you cant use it?
Some of us just use the high tech failure features as an excuse for a car that should have been flawless. Not the poster boy for internet forums.
We just buy the car because we like it not because its good.
PS> I hate my RX and will sell it soon. Even though it has been flawless and has only been to the shop for service.
11-18-2014, 09:48 AM
#160
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The guy who's buying a 2014 S for $180k should expect his ownership to be trouble free. The guy buying that 2014 used in 2018 for $60k should expect some stuff to crop up.
11-18-2014, 10:24 AM
#161
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W463 G550 / C190 GTC //prev: W204 C63 507 / R170
The problem is - it's the same car. So that doesn't work - MB needs to make them with less variance on reliability, period, regardless of final selling price.
Did you know that in Australia a C63 costs almost $200K! Yes, that's right. In USD, it's about $175K. Crazy.
Now I don't know about you, but a C63 that costs $175K US better be pretty f-ing perfect.
Did you know that in Australia a C63 costs almost $200K! Yes, that's right. In USD, it's about $175K. Crazy.
Now I don't know about you, but a C63 that costs $175K US better be pretty f-ing perfect.
11-18-2014, 10:30 AM
#162
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2005 Mercedes Benz W220 S400
11-18-2014, 10:54 AM
#163
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Guys, if you buy a super-expensive Mercedes because you think that means it'll be super reliable, you're probably gonna be disappointed.
The cars aren't expensive because they're built simple and with very reliable parts...they're expensive because they're built complex with super expensive parts.
There is zero correlation between high MSRP and reliability. If anything there's an inverse relationship, where less complex cars with fewer systems, and less performance are the best bargains in terms of reliability.
Really, everything you need to know about what the used Mercedes ownership experience is like is right there in the depreciation. If you've ever wondered why you can buy a beautiful four year old S Class in perfect condition for half its original $100,000 price, feel free to stop wondering.
The cars aren't expensive because they're built simple and with very reliable parts...they're expensive because they're built complex with super expensive parts.
There is zero correlation between high MSRP and reliability. If anything there's an inverse relationship, where less complex cars with fewer systems, and less performance are the best bargains in terms of reliability.
Really, everything you need to know about what the used Mercedes ownership experience is like is right there in the depreciation. If you've ever wondered why you can buy a beautiful four year old S Class in perfect condition for half its original $100,000 price, feel free to stop wondering.
11-18-2014, 11:20 AM
#164
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2005 Mercedes Benz W220 S400
First car in the market with park assist was Lexus LS460 it has plenty of tech. It may be a boring car but it has as many goodies as an S Class.
Thats just an excuse that we use to feel better.
Range Rovers are even more expensive and are a piece of crap in reliability.
11-18-2014, 11:32 AM
#165
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Its not more complicated than a Lexus LX570.
First car in the market with park assist was Lexus LS460 it has plenty of tech. It may be a boring car but it has as many goodies as an S Class.
Thats just an excuse that we use to feel better.
Range Rovers are even more expensive and are a piece of crap in reliability.
First car in the market with park assist was Lexus LS460 it has plenty of tech. It may be a boring car but it has as many goodies as an S Class.
Thats just an excuse that we use to feel better.
Range Rovers are even more expensive and are a piece of crap in reliability.
I guess the question is, if in your opinion the Lexus is every bit the car as the Mercedes, but more reliable, why are you driving a Mercedes?
Last edited by Mike5215; 11-18-2014 at 12:08 PM.
11-18-2014, 12:16 PM
#166
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2005 Mercedes Benz W220 S400
Have you ever seen a Lexus owner trying to parallel park? They can barely see over the steering wheel. That's not tech. That's a pedestrian safety feature. I don't need to rationalize the S Class against the Lexus in order to feel better about the Mercedes. I just need to drive them both back-to-back (which i have). But there's nothing wrong with the Lexus if that does it for you.
I guess the question is, if in your opinion the Lexus is every bit the car as the Mercedes, but more reliable, why are you driving a Mercedes?
I guess the question is, if in your opinion the Lexus is every bit the car as the Mercedes, but more reliable, why are you driving a Mercedes?
I like Mercedes better as a vehicle but its not as reliable as Lexus. And currently MB reliability is not bad, they are very good cars.
I just think that when you make this type of investment your car should not be in the shop for anything less than regular maintenance.
11-18-2014, 12:20 PM
#167
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W463 G550 / C190 GTC //prev: W204 C63 507 / R170
Its not more complicated than a Lexus LX570.
First car in the market with park assist was Lexus LS460 it has plenty of tech. It may be a boring car but it has as many goodies as an S Class.
Thats just an excuse that we use to feel better.
Range Rovers are even more expensive and are a piece of crap in reliability.
First car in the market with park assist was Lexus LS460 it has plenty of tech. It may be a boring car but it has as many goodies as an S Class.
Thats just an excuse that we use to feel better.
Range Rovers are even more expensive and are a piece of crap in reliability.
I spent years as a manufacturing engineer in the auto industry, where I worked for several OEMs.
A Mercedes is not more complex and does not have more expensive parts than a Lexus!
The difference is that Toyota spends years training and working with their suppliers to improve reliability, and is obsessive about it.
11-18-2014, 12:30 PM
#168
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2005 Mercedes Benz W220 S400
100% Correct.
I spent years as a manufacturing engineer in the auto industry, where I worked for several OEMs.
A Mercedes is not more complex and does not have more expensive parts than a Lexus!
The difference is that Toyota spends years training and working with their suppliers to improve reliability, and is obsessive about it.
I spent years as a manufacturing engineer in the auto industry, where I worked for several OEMs.
A Mercedes is not more complex and does not have more expensive parts than a Lexus!
The difference is that Toyota spends years training and working with their suppliers to improve reliability, and is obsessive about it.
11-18-2014, 12:33 PM
#169
MBWorld Fanatic!
100% Correct.
I spent years as a manufacturing engineer in the auto industry, where I worked for several OEMs.
A Mercedes is not more complex and does not have more expensive parts than a Lexus!
The difference is that Toyota spends years training and working with their suppliers to improve reliability, and is obsessive about it.
I spent years as a manufacturing engineer in the auto industry, where I worked for several OEMs.
A Mercedes is not more complex and does not have more expensive parts than a Lexus!
The difference is that Toyota spends years training and working with their suppliers to improve reliability, and is obsessive about it.
11-18-2014, 12:35 PM
#170
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W463 G550 / C190 GTC //prev: W204 C63 507 / R170
I guess Lexus isn't what it sued to be either.
But it's still more reliable than MB.
Look - I'm selling my Lexus and getting a C63 507… so what does that say?
But it's still more reliable than MB.
Look - I'm selling my Lexus and getting a C63 507… so what does that say?
11-18-2014, 01:18 PM
#171
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I'd say Lexus as a luxury brand is probably a little better than average on reliability, but any luxury car with some miles on the clock is going to have issues. It makes sense to drive what you like and get an extended warranty on it.
11-18-2014, 02:28 PM
#172
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2005 Mercedes Benz W220 S400
Even though I dont care about the warranty that much more than the fact that I cant drive my car because its in the shop, you dont do anything with reliability if youre driving a car that you dont like.
11-18-2014, 06:57 PM
#173
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So now, i REALLY care about the warranty.
Last edited by Mike5215; 11-18-2014 at 07:01 PM.
11-19-2014, 06:15 PM
#175
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2005 Mercedes Benz W220 S400
I definitely miss mine when its in the shop. The 221 so far hasn't been in for anything other than an A and a B service. They found some other minor stuff under warranty each time, and it needed a battery and front brakes last time so it was there for a couple of days. It hasn't had anything that would make it non drivable yet. Both 220's had the usual failures, Airmatic on both, a tranny on the 06, motor mounts, transmission mounts, rear main seal, a lot of small stuff. I added it up and the 2006 S500 had $13,000 in warranty repairs in a little over two years and then another $6000 for the tranny outside of warranty (by 3k miles). The 04 S430 had around $4500 before the warranty expired and I dumped it.
So now, i REALLY care about the warranty.
So now, i REALLY care about the warranty.
Every part was original and sent by MB from Germany
