S400 BlueHYBRID
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
From: Charlotte, NC
'16 528i MSport
S400 BlueHYBRID
Excerpt from MB of Princeton, NJ newsletter -
"...Even today’s technologically advanced S-Class will bow in admiration of the hybrid drive system arriving in the form of the 2009 Mercedes-Benz S400 BlueHYBRID. The car marks the first patented integration of a lithium-ion battery into a series-produced passenger car. Mercedes-Benz is calling this development a “crucial breakthrough in battery technology” that significantly reduces the size and weight of the battery while greatly boosting power storage when compared to conventional nickel-metal hydride batteries. Until now, the heat generated by the lithium-ion battery was a concern, but Mercedes-Benz engineers found a way to keep the battery at its optimum operating temperature using the S400’s climate control system. The S400 is said to employ 25 new Mercedes-Benz patents for specific new automotive technologies.
The S400 uses a Mercedes-Benz 3.5-liter V6 gas engine combined with the 15kw electric motor/generator, something M-B calls a “mild hybrid.” Off-the-record sources say the 2009 S400 will offer nearly 30 mpg on the highway and be capable of reaching 60 mph in around seven seconds, thus making the S400 BlueHYBRID the world's most economical luxury sedan - unrivaled by any gasoline, diesel or hybrid drive system offered by any competitor.
The S400 BlueHYBRID arrives in 2009 along with the ML450 hybrid that also uses the 3.5-liter V6 but in a two-mode hybrid system. More Mercedes-Benz models using the mild hybrid will be launched eventually including diesel hybrids..."
What do we think?
"...Even today’s technologically advanced S-Class will bow in admiration of the hybrid drive system arriving in the form of the 2009 Mercedes-Benz S400 BlueHYBRID. The car marks the first patented integration of a lithium-ion battery into a series-produced passenger car. Mercedes-Benz is calling this development a “crucial breakthrough in battery technology” that significantly reduces the size and weight of the battery while greatly boosting power storage when compared to conventional nickel-metal hydride batteries. Until now, the heat generated by the lithium-ion battery was a concern, but Mercedes-Benz engineers found a way to keep the battery at its optimum operating temperature using the S400’s climate control system. The S400 is said to employ 25 new Mercedes-Benz patents for specific new automotive technologies.
The S400 uses a Mercedes-Benz 3.5-liter V6 gas engine combined with the 15kw electric motor/generator, something M-B calls a “mild hybrid.” Off-the-record sources say the 2009 S400 will offer nearly 30 mpg on the highway and be capable of reaching 60 mph in around seven seconds, thus making the S400 BlueHYBRID the world's most economical luxury sedan - unrivaled by any gasoline, diesel or hybrid drive system offered by any competitor.
The S400 BlueHYBRID arrives in 2009 along with the ML450 hybrid that also uses the 3.5-liter V6 but in a two-mode hybrid system. More Mercedes-Benz models using the mild hybrid will be launched eventually including diesel hybrids..."
What do we think?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 3
Excerpt from MB of Princeton, NJ newsletter -
"...Even today’s technologically advanced S-Class will bow in admiration of the hybrid drive system arriving in the form of the 2009 Mercedes-Benz S400 BlueHYBRID. The car marks the first patented integration of a lithium-ion battery into a series-produced passenger car. Mercedes-Benz is calling this development a “crucial breakthrough in battery technology” that significantly reduces the size and weight of the battery while greatly boosting power storage when compared to conventional nickel-metal hydride batteries. Until now, the heat generated by the lithium-ion battery was a concern, but Mercedes-Benz engineers found a way to keep the battery at its optimum operating temperature using the S400’s climate control system. The S400 is said to employ 25 new Mercedes-Benz patents for specific new automotive technologies.
The S400 uses a Mercedes-Benz 3.5-liter V6 gas engine combined with the 15kw electric motor/generator, something M-B calls a “mild hybrid.” Off-the-record sources say the 2009 S400 will offer nearly 30 mpg on the highway and be capable of reaching 60 mph in around seven seconds, thus making the S400 BlueHYBRID the world's most economical luxury sedan - unrivaled by any gasoline, diesel or hybrid drive system offered by any competitor.
The S400 BlueHYBRID arrives in 2009 along with the ML450 hybrid that also uses the 3.5-liter V6 but in a two-mode hybrid system. More Mercedes-Benz models using the mild hybrid will be launched eventually including diesel hybrids..."
What do we think?
"...Even today’s technologically advanced S-Class will bow in admiration of the hybrid drive system arriving in the form of the 2009 Mercedes-Benz S400 BlueHYBRID. The car marks the first patented integration of a lithium-ion battery into a series-produced passenger car. Mercedes-Benz is calling this development a “crucial breakthrough in battery technology” that significantly reduces the size and weight of the battery while greatly boosting power storage when compared to conventional nickel-metal hydride batteries. Until now, the heat generated by the lithium-ion battery was a concern, but Mercedes-Benz engineers found a way to keep the battery at its optimum operating temperature using the S400’s climate control system. The S400 is said to employ 25 new Mercedes-Benz patents for specific new automotive technologies.
The S400 uses a Mercedes-Benz 3.5-liter V6 gas engine combined with the 15kw electric motor/generator, something M-B calls a “mild hybrid.” Off-the-record sources say the 2009 S400 will offer nearly 30 mpg on the highway and be capable of reaching 60 mph in around seven seconds, thus making the S400 BlueHYBRID the world's most economical luxury sedan - unrivaled by any gasoline, diesel or hybrid drive system offered by any competitor.
The S400 BlueHYBRID arrives in 2009 along with the ML450 hybrid that also uses the 3.5-liter V6 but in a two-mode hybrid system. More Mercedes-Benz models using the mild hybrid will be launched eventually including diesel hybrids..."
What do we think?
Sadly 30 MPG is nothing special in this category, only in the US where the selection is limited.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 3
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,278
Likes: 377
From: San Jose area
'19 E63S sedan
Why is that surprising? The only power source is still the internal combustion of gasoline. The difference is the the gasoline-provided energy that's normally wasted, heat generated from braking, is replaced with captured and stored energy reused by a motor. If you never braked, a hybrid would just lower overall efficiency due to increased weight. I'm impressed by how much they manage to save anyway.
Trending Topics
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 672
Likes: 0
From: Northern California
MBs
Here are a couple of estimates to compare. They are for combined city and highway driving in the NEDC cycle often used by MB developers, and taken from http://www.mercedes-benz.de and converted to US MPG figures using http://www.whnet.com/4x4/convert.html
S600 16 MPG
S550 20 MPG
S420 25 MPG
S400 30 MPG
S600 16 MPG
S550 20 MPG
S420 25 MPG
S400 30 MPG
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 3
Here are a couple of estimates to compare. They are for combined city and highway driving in the NEDC cycle often used by MB developers, and taken from http://www.mercedes-benz.de and converted to US MPG figures using http://www.whnet.com/4x4/convert.html
S600 16 MPG
S550 20 MPG
S420 25 MPG
S400 30 MPG
S600 16 MPG
S550 20 MPG
S420 25 MPG
S400 30 MPG
Sorry, but there is a very large innacuracy there, you are using the highway rating for the S400, but the combined rating for everything else.
Here is a comparison of highway fuel economy:
S420CDI 33mpg highway 0-100km/hr 6.6 seconds
S600 24 mpg
S550 27 mpg
S400 30 mpg
Diesel FTW by far in my book. Much more power, better acceleration and top speed, more efficient, literally better in every possible respect.
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 672
Likes: 0
From: Northern California
MBs
But the S350, onto which the S400 HYRBID is based, is rated at 7.7 to 7.9 liters per 100 kilometers on the highway, which would mean the S400 has no fuel economy advantge over the S350.
Since you are such a diesel fan:
One can also combine hybrid and diesel, like in the S300 BlueTEC HYBRID expected in 2010, for which Mercedes published 5.4 liters per 100 kilometer, to yield 44 MPG in US numbers.
PS. If you dont have MB published hybrid specs handy, just click on the picture below and scroll down a bit on the page.
Last edited by Wolfgang; Sep 9, 2008 at 08:38 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 3
The number used for the S400 BlueHYBRID is 7.9 liters per 100 kilometers, as published by Mercedes-Benz at the introduction on September 11, 2007 at the IAA 2007.
But the S350, onto which the S400 HYRBID is based, is rated at 7.7 to 7.9 liters per 100 kilometers on the highway, which would mean the S400 has no fuel economy advantge over the S350.
Since you are such a diesel fan:
One can also combine hybrid and diesel, like in the S300 BlueTEC HYBRID expected in 2010, for which Mercedes published 5.4 liters per 100 kilometer, to yield 44 MPG in US numbers.
PS. If you dont have MB published hybrid specs handy, just click on the picture below and scroll down a bit on the page.
But the S350, onto which the S400 HYRBID is based, is rated at 7.7 to 7.9 liters per 100 kilometers on the highway, which would mean the S400 has no fuel economy advantge over the S350.
Since you are such a diesel fan:
One can also combine hybrid and diesel, like in the S300 BlueTEC HYBRID expected in 2010, for which Mercedes published 5.4 liters per 100 kilometer, to yield 44 MPG in US numbers.
PS. If you dont have MB published hybrid specs handy, just click on the picture below and scroll down a bit on the page.
I still do not see the appeal of the S400BlueHybrid, it is slower, thirstier, more complicated and less powerful than the S420CDI.
It just seems MB is making these hybrids to jump on the hype bandwagon with everyone else, I wish they would stick to this diesel heritage (which is where they have the advantage anyway) and provide real options to the US.
I just fell completely in love with that car when I drove it, and have wanted one ever since.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,497
Likes: 335
From: Europe
223.168 & 213.012 & 906.633 & 214.005
Isn't there a diesel hybrid following (not the V8, it appears as the V8 is going to be discontinued at some point when the V6 engines gain the same power as the V8 currently). But I doubt these would do too many miles with the battery only, aren't this like "mild hybrids"?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,755
Likes: 797
From: FL & CT
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
You guys need to be very careful in taking liter per km claims coming out of Germany, or Europe generally, and mathematically converting them to mpg. The reason is that the fuel consumption test cycle in Europe is simply not the same as the test cycle used by in the US by the EPA.
Case in point:
Go to the UK MB website and look at the mpg data for the S500L (same as S550 here): http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/cont...tech_data.html
13.0 / 28.2 / 19.8 mpg
whereas in the US we see:
14 / 21 / 16 mpg
The combined mpg difference can probably be explained by the difference between US and Imperial gallons (the website doesn't say if it is using Imperial gallons, but I'm assuming). But the individual city and highway differences can't be explained that way; the remaining difference is due to different test cycles. The UK tests show highway mpg about 2.2x city mpg; the EPA tests show 1.5x. So it appears that the EPA test regime yields relatively higher city and lower highway mpg than does the UK test regime. I don't know if German and UK test regimes are the same or not, btw.
Case in point:
Go to the UK MB website and look at the mpg data for the S500L (same as S550 here): http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/cont...tech_data.html
13.0 / 28.2 / 19.8 mpg
whereas in the US we see:
14 / 21 / 16 mpg
The combined mpg difference can probably be explained by the difference between US and Imperial gallons (the website doesn't say if it is using Imperial gallons, but I'm assuming). But the individual city and highway differences can't be explained that way; the remaining difference is due to different test cycles. The UK tests show highway mpg about 2.2x city mpg; the EPA tests show 1.5x. So it appears that the EPA test regime yields relatively higher city and lower highway mpg than does the UK test regime. I don't know if German and UK test regimes are the same or not, btw.
Last edited by syswei; Sep 10, 2008 at 09:58 AM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 1
From: CA
2010 CL65
IMO, huge waste of R&D resources for US mkt to develop some transgender eco-motor for S-Class, as opposed to advancing a new-tech V12, to sell more high-margin $200K 65s in US....
Houses in Greenwich/Woodside are 50% cheaper than houses in London....cars and fuel are 50% cheaper in US than in EU....US consumers have far different preferences/higher std of living/greater disposable income than our pals in London/Munich/Frankfurt....
In key office pkg lots in SiliconValley, one routinely sees more new S65s than underpowered, underbraked, plasticky S550s....
Marketers need to better understand socio-economics (and commute patterns) of likely buyers of highly profitable $200K commuter cars, esp in major mkts like SF/LA/NYC....
Houses in Greenwich/Woodside are 50% cheaper than houses in London....cars and fuel are 50% cheaper in US than in EU....US consumers have far different preferences/higher std of living/greater disposable income than our pals in London/Munich/Frankfurt....
In key office pkg lots in SiliconValley, one routinely sees more new S65s than underpowered, underbraked, plasticky S550s....
Marketers need to better understand socio-economics (and commute patterns) of likely buyers of highly profitable $200K commuter cars, esp in major mkts like SF/LA/NYC....
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,497
Likes: 335
From: Europe
223.168 & 213.012 & 906.633 & 214.005
You guys need to be very careful in taking liter per km claims coming out of Germany, or Europe generally, and mathematically converting them to mpg. The reason is that the fuel consumption test cycle in Europe is simply not the same as the test cycle used by in the US by the EPA.
Case in point:
Go to the UK MB website and look at the mpg data for the S500L (same as S550 here): http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/cont...tech_data.html
13.0 / 28.2 / 19.8 mpg
whereas in the US we see:
14 / 21 / 16 mpg
The combined mpg difference can probably be explained by the difference between US and Imperial gallons (the website doesn't say if it is using Imperial gallons, but I'm assuming). But the individual city and highway differences can't be explained that way; the remaining difference is due to different test cycles. The UK tests show highway mpg about 2.2x city mpg; the EPA tests show 1.5x. So it appears that the EPA test regime yields relatively higher city and lower highway mpg than does the UK test regime. I don't know if German and UK test regimes are the same or not, btw.
Case in point:
Go to the UK MB website and look at the mpg data for the S500L (same as S550 here): http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/cont...tech_data.html
13.0 / 28.2 / 19.8 mpg
whereas in the US we see:
14 / 21 / 16 mpg
The combined mpg difference can probably be explained by the difference between US and Imperial gallons (the website doesn't say if it is using Imperial gallons, but I'm assuming). But the individual city and highway differences can't be explained that way; the remaining difference is due to different test cycles. The UK tests show highway mpg about 2.2x city mpg; the EPA tests show 1.5x. So it appears that the EPA test regime yields relatively higher city and lower highway mpg than does the UK test regime. I don't know if German and UK test regimes are the same or not, btw.
I don't find the combined figure from MBUSA but the S550 figures are 14 for city and 22 for highway.
The UK figures after direct conversion are 19.3 mpg and 26.4 mpg. These cars have the same tranny and rear differential ratio which is good for comparison (the US cars often have shorter rear differential).
In any case, you are right about the fuel consumption measurement standard being different and resulting to different figures for the same car.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,755
Likes: 797
From: FL & CT
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Some kind of a mistake above. The S500L EU figures (urban, extra-urban, combined) are 16.1, 32.8, 23.9 miles per Imperial gallon. I'm afraid you had picked up the S600L figures.
I don't find the combined figure from MBUSA but the S550 figures are 14 for city and 22 for highway.
The UK figures after direct conversion are 19.3 mpg and 26.4 mpg. These cars have the same tranny and rear differential ratio which is good for comparison (the US cars often have shorter rear differential).
In any case, you are right about the fuel consumption measurement standard being different and resulting to different figures for the same car.
I don't find the combined figure from MBUSA but the S550 figures are 14 for city and 22 for highway.
The UK figures after direct conversion are 19.3 mpg and 26.4 mpg. These cars have the same tranny and rear differential ratio which is good for comparison (the US cars often have shorter rear differential).
In any case, you are right about the fuel consumption measurement standard being different and resulting to different figures for the same car.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 3
Thanks, I stand corrected on the EU numbers. The US numbers I used are from the EPA site, fueleconomy.gov, for the 2008 S550. Now that I check, the 2009 numbers from the same site are indeed 14 / 22 / 17 rather than 14 / 21 / 16 for the 2008. I wonder what would account for the difference.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 3
IMO, huge waste of R&D resources for US mkt to develop some transgender eco-motor for S-Class, as opposed to advancing a new-tech V12, to sell more high-margin $200K 65s in US....
Houses in Greenwich/Woodside are 50% cheaper than houses in London....cars and fuel are 50% cheaper in US than in EU....US consumers have far different preferences/higher std of living/greater disposable income than our pals in London/Munich/Frankfurt....
In key office pkg lots in SiliconValley, one routinely sees more new S65s than underpowered, underbraked, plasticky S550s....
Marketers need to better understand socio-economics (and commute patterns) of likely buyers of highly profitable $200K commuter cars, esp in major mkts like SF/LA/NYC....
Houses in Greenwich/Woodside are 50% cheaper than houses in London....cars and fuel are 50% cheaper in US than in EU....US consumers have far different preferences/higher std of living/greater disposable income than our pals in London/Munich/Frankfurt....
In key office pkg lots in SiliconValley, one routinely sees more new S65s than underpowered, underbraked, plasticky S550s....
Marketers need to better understand socio-economics (and commute patterns) of likely buyers of highly profitable $200K commuter cars, esp in major mkts like SF/LA/NYC....
Just because some people are more prudent with their spending does not mean they could not have purchased a more expensive model, but if they derive no benefit from it, the argument is a difficult one to make.
Even so, there are so many people who will over extend themselves to buy something they cannot afford that any judgment drawn from someone's car is highly dubious.
Nobody is doubting your accomplishments, but there are a number of people who have grown up comfortably and come from a long line of assets who do not feel the need to advertise their holdings or spend money needlessly. Those are usually the most important ones anyway, families who have had it for so long that the drive to preserve the assets for future generations outweighs the frivolities of the present.
All that being said, I do not advocate cheapness in any way, I find under-equipped (anything less than all the options) to be far more offensive than buying a smaller engine. I can see how somone might not want to pay for 500hp to sit in traffic when they already have 400 and can burn far less fuel, but there is no excuse for forgoing upgraded leather and fantastic features.
Last edited by Untertürkheim; Sep 12, 2008 at 01:48 AM.
Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 244
Likes: 2
From: Hunterdon County
'06 E 350 4matic wagon; '05 E 500 4matic sedan; '09 S550 4matic
I'm with you Unterman. I hope MB brings the S diesel here and if they one day combine it with a battery so-be-it. The diesel performs as well or better than most hybrids for MPG in this class and you don't need the batteries.
I'm glad for the poster whose world is NYC, LA, SF, Woodside, Greenwhich, Silicon Valley where roads and key parking spaces are choked with S65's. He should be proud of the success that he obviously enjoys. However, I doubt that MB could stay in business if the S65's were its key focus. As one plots the market size for $200K cars to $100K cars to $50K cars the drop off is not linear. The reasons are mostly economic (affordability) but as Unterman says, there may be some "worth what paid for" drop off as well. I don't care how big the S65 margins may be, they can't overcome the volume advantage of selling orders of magnitude more of <$200K cars at more modest margin levels. Neither an S diesel nor an S hybrid will likely peel away many S65 buyers but would impact those Luddites looking at the plasticky and under powered/under braked S550's.
I'm glad for the poster whose world is NYC, LA, SF, Woodside, Greenwhich, Silicon Valley where roads and key parking spaces are choked with S65's. He should be proud of the success that he obviously enjoys. However, I doubt that MB could stay in business if the S65's were its key focus. As one plots the market size for $200K cars to $100K cars to $50K cars the drop off is not linear. The reasons are mostly economic (affordability) but as Unterman says, there may be some "worth what paid for" drop off as well. I don't care how big the S65 margins may be, they can't overcome the volume advantage of selling orders of magnitude more of <$200K cars at more modest margin levels. Neither an S diesel nor an S hybrid will likely peel away many S65 buyers but would impact those Luddites looking at the plasticky and under powered/under braked S550's.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,755
Likes: 797
From: FL & CT
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
I'd wager that the average US driver achieves less than the EU ratings. My 2008 S550 4matic is rated 16 mpg combined by EPA, and 19.1 combined by EU. My actual mpg in mixed driving is 18.0, and I can tell you for sure that I don't drive aggressively.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 3
If you continually achieve 18 average, is it very probable that you could get 19 by changing your driving style. It may be fuel quality, altitude, tire pressure, or climate control that accounts for such a small difference.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 3
So I have updated information regarding the consumption of the S400 BlueHybrid.
City: 11,1L/100km = 21,2 mpg
Combined 7,9L/100km = 29,8mpg (basically the 30 figure we saw before)
Highway 6,1L/100km = 38,6 mpg
City: 11,1L/100km = 21,2 mpg
Combined 7,9L/100km = 29,8mpg (basically the 30 figure we saw before)
Highway 6,1L/100km = 38,6 mpg
Last edited by Untertürkheim; Sep 18, 2008 at 05:27 PM.
