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Thanks for the detailed response and for sharing your experience, I will bring these questions up to the indy. Figuring out the diagnostic thought process as I go through it.
You are taking the cam sensor thought to the guy who by your posts in my opinion is trying to milk you quite badly!?!
Get one cam sensor and we in this forum can give you a step-by-step how to replace it. This job is easier than replacing a fuse.
I've got an M273 engine with fault code P0025 (continuous camshaft adjustment left incorrect position of the exhaust camshaft). Anyone know what this code has in store for me? The car runs fine--just picked it up on a regular quick scan with my Foxwell scanner.
Check for oil in the harness MB released a service campaign for this covered out of warranty. Otherwise exhaust/bank 2 camshaft solenoid (magnet) may need replacement if so I suggest proactively replacing all 4. See attachments.
You are taking the cam sensor thought to the guy who by your posts in my opinion is trying to milk you quite badly!?!
Get one cam sensor and we in this forum can give you a step-by-step how to replace it. This job is easier than replacing a fuse.
So I’m not taking the thought to the guy who tried to milk me straight up without suggesting this first, another other indy who said it would be expensive had the same thought as you to replace other elements related to the camshaft first and see if that fixes anything, and only then to proceed. But yeah, I’ll go ahead and do it on my own.
Engine 278:
Up to engine 2789xx 30 103675, install chain tensioners and check valves.
From engine 2789xx 30 103676 to engine 2789xx 30 191843, install chain tensioners only.
If the noise problem is not rectified after installing the new chain tensioners and check valves, or if the engine number
of the affected engine is higher than the corresponding engine listed under Validity, report the complaint via the PTSS
system with the current quick test results
I've got an M273 engine with fault code P0025 (continuous camshaft adjustment left incorrect position of the exhaust camshaft). Anyone know what this code has in store for me? The car runs fine--just picked it up on a regular quick scan with my Foxwell scanner.
I had this code about 7 months ago. Apparently it was a camshaft sensor that went bad. Indy found two other camshaft sensors going bad but not bad enough to throw codes so he swapped three camshaft sensors (two exhaust and one intake). CEL went away after the fix and never returned. My car runs much smoother now after the fix. Very simple job (took 15 minutes to replace them).
However, now I'm getting a rattle noise with every cold start that lasts a couple seconds. From my research here, it could be a timing chain issue. I spoke with my mechanic and he said it might be the camshaft adjusters but he wants me to bring the car for an accurate diagnosis which I'll do over the next few days and see what happens.
The vehicle has an M278 with codes and leaks. @sHocKR3P4IR please explain how you or your mechanic have concluded the chain is stretched.
Ignore leaks, they are not the source of codes. Leaks on M27* engines are from poor factory quality control, do not cause codes, and can be repaired by the dealer.
Codes are caused by the ECU thinking something is wrong.
- Focus on the easy things first: cam position sensors and cam solenoids allowing oil to enter the harness. This is the least expensive and most likely failure - 2012 was the first year for M278 in W221 and therefore has the most time on the road/in use. Cam position sensors have had a multitude of part number changes which is a red flag that MB knew they had a problem and were flailing around trying to find a solution.
- After oil in harness has been affirmatively ruled out, move to mechanical parts: chain, tensioner and cam plates.
I would think that if I were to swap the camshaft adjuster and the camshaft position sensor from the malfunctioning cylinder bank with the other cylinder bank and see if the error code comes up again in the other bank, that would provide some information, right?
doubt it, the chain gets longer due to stretch and of course wear of the guides and adjusters ... but the sensor subject to the longest run will be seeing the most of any stretch whether its a new sensor or not
these components are made of chocolate on the later cars - the faster is snaps and destroys the engine, the sooner they can offer an affordable lease, rather than a massive one off repair bill
I keep saying it - one day someone will hear - they are not idiots, but they are criminals....
doubt it, the chain gets longer due to stretch and of course wear of the guides and adjusters ... but the sensor subject to the longest run will be seeing the most of any stretch whether its a new sensor or not
these components are made of chocolate on the later cars - the faster is snaps and destroys the engine, the sooner they can offer an affordable lease, rather than a massive one off repair bill
I keep saying it - one day someone will hear - they are not idiots, but they are criminals....
Yeah, who isn't driven by profit. The leases for the new S are pretty criminal too. $2,700 a month. I could replace the entire engine three times a year and still come out ahead of that.
I would think that if I were to swap the camshaft adjuster and the camshaft position sensor from the malfunctioning cylinder bank with the other cylinder bank and see if the error code comes up again in the other bank, that would provide some information, right?
Possibly.
1. Tell the indy to check the sensors and magnets for oil leaks. 30 minute job.
2.a. If oil found, replace magnets and solenoids, clean the harness, clear codes and drive it for a while.
2.b. If no oil found, follow the MB documentation and dozens of threads on this site related to check valve installation, because your engine is in the affected range.
Yeah, who isn't driven by profit. The leases for the new S are pretty criminal too. $2,700 a month. I could replace the entire engine three times a year and still come out ahead of that.
yes but the world of cars moved on so much in the 18 years since they developed this car you can get a car that's far safer, 30 times more reliable, and drives far better than a 221 every did for peanuts, and with all the toys we all now expect
the only thing going for them is the interior ambience is better than a budget super mini - but that soon falls by the wayside when things stop working - and the convenience of music streaming and up to date maps is in reality far more useful than a rare S class with option trim upgrades
So this is the info I’ve received in terms of the diagnosis. That and one of the indy’s says he can hear the timing chain slapping around inside.
You truly need to get a third opinion! My main job, outside custom leather working, is being a manager at the largest European repair facility on the MS Gulf Coast. Throughout my time there I have seen 1, YES 1, M278 with a stretched timing chain, but not with your codes. We have seen only 1 vehicle which demonstrated your codes a 2013 GL450 with a M278. It also made a horrible clatter whenever the engine was started either cold or after a short period hot. The problem? The passenger side intake camshaft reluctor wheel had spun, thus making the engine think it was out of time. Here is the fun part. We did the initial repair and the vehicle was back within two weeks mainly with a complaint of check engine and horrible engine rattle upon start. Guess what, the reluctor wheel had spun again. This time we did the camshaft, all passenger side intake and exhaust camshaft phasers, and updated tensioner. The car was dead quite upon cold start, and hot starts. The customer has not been back for 5 months. So you need a mechanic who can, in detail, give you a failure point. You'll have to pay for tear down, but its better than shooting in the dark. Lastly, half of these posts are fear mongering about the M278 and M157 engine. We have a technician who's worked on MB for over 45 years. He said the M278 is one of the best built engines by MB that rarely fail, so take everything people say with a super biased grain of salt, do personal research and realize how rare it is to see people complaining about full engine or timing failure. Also, check your engine to see if it has the updated chain, I have never heard about one of those stretching.
You truly need to get a third opinion! My main job, outside custom leather working, is being a manager at the largest European repair facility on the MS Gulf Coast. Throughout my time there I have seen 1, YES 1, M278 with a stretched timing chain, but not with your codes. We have seen only 1 vehicle which demonstrated your codes a 2013 GL450 with a M278. It also made a horrible clatter whenever the engine was started either cold or after a short period hot. The problem? The passenger side intake camshaft reluctor wheel had spun, thus making the engine think it was out of time. Here is the fun part. We did the initial repair and the vehicle was back within two weeks mainly with a complaint of check engine and horrible engine rattle upon start. Guess what, the reluctor wheel had spun again. This time we did the camshaft, all passenger side intake and exhaust camshaft phasers, and updated tensioner. The car was dead quite upon cold start, and hot starts. The customer has not been back for 5 months. So you need a mechanic who can, in detail, give you a failure point. You'll have to pay for tear down, but its better than shooting in the dark. Lastly, half of these posts are fear mongering about the M278 and M157 engine. We have a technician who's worked on MB for over 45 years. He said the M278 is one of the best built engines by MB that rarely fail, so take everything people say with a super biased grain of salt, do personal research and realize how rare it is to see people complaining about full engine or timing failure. Also, check your engine to see if it has the updated chain, I have never heard about one of those stretching.
Can you tell if it is updated chain just by looking at it thru the oil filler?h
Can you tell if it is updated chain just by looking at it thru the oil filler?h
Pop the oil cap, and have a peep in:
Credit: MBClubUK
Early models fitted with the M278 were manufactured with the old style chain, but production quickly swapped to the new style. So if you have a early to late 2013 S550 you should have the updated chain. There use to be a bulletin about which engine serials fell in the old chain vs. new chain, but can't seem to find it.
Last edited by KronosLederAtel; Aug 30, 2022 at 08:06 AM.
Early models fitted with the M278 were manufactured with the old style chain, but production quickly swapped to the new style. So if you have a early to late 2013 S550 you should have the updated chain. There use to be a bulletin about which engine serials fell in the old chain vs. new chain, but can't seem to find it.
Just to update my P0025 code, the dealer says it needs a new sensor (and maybe more related parts, as the SA advisor's report was pretty general). Cost is about $1000. My warranty will pay.
The real (off topic) shocker of this visit to the dealer is I need a new leather panel insert in the rear, because I've got a torn window seal (all one part). The part costs $12,100, with 5 hours billable to install! Even the guys at the dealership were shocked that anything could cost that much. Part is 216-690-00-00-9E24 if you are curious to verify this crazy number. I've got a CL550 btw, and cross post here because the CL forum is pretty much a ghost town. I don't get flat time billing sometimes. I've taken that part off before to look for another problem. I did it in about 20 minutes, and I had never done it before.
I looked at it and the chain is like in the left side picture with the middle part as one piece instead of two pieces like in the right side picture of the old chain.
Hard to understand why this modification would make the chain any better though…
Just to update my P0025 code, the dealer says it needs a new sensor (and maybe more related parts, as the SA advisor's report was pretty general). Cost is about $1000. My warranty will pay.
The real (off topic) shocker of this visit to the dealer is I need a new leather panel insert in the rear, because I've got a torn window seal (all one part). The part costs $12,100, with 5 hours billable to install! Even the guys at the dealership were shocked that anything could cost that much. Part is 216-690-00-00-9E24 if you are curious to verify this crazy number. I've got a CL550 btw, and cross post here because the CL forum is pretty much a ghost town. I don't get flat time billing sometimes. I've taken that part off before to look for another problem. I did it in about 20 minutes, and I had never done it before.
Just to update my P0025 code, the dealer says it needs a new sensor (and maybe more related parts, as the SA advisor's report was pretty general). Cost is about $1000. My warranty will pay.
The real (off topic) shocker of this visit to the dealer is I need a new leather panel insert in the rear, because I've got a torn window seal (all one part). The part costs $12,100, with 5 hours billable to install! Even the guys at the dealership were shocked that anything could cost that much. Part is 216-690-00-00-9E24 if you are curious to verify this crazy number. I've got a CL550 btw, and cross post here because the CL forum is pretty much a ghost town. I don't get flat time billing sometimes. I've taken that part off before to look for another problem. I did it in about 20 minutes, and I had never done it before.
My dad had to have part of his backseat replaced in his BMW 7 series...the number was similarly crazy, although I don't recall the exact number. Does anyone know how the manufacturers come up with these bonkers numbers? For $12,100 (or really $14,500 with install) I could have gone a long way towards a new engine. I know I'm off topic here, so sorry, but to finish out my earlier comment, I don't understand why I even needed the $12,100 part...in looking at EPC, it looks like new sealing rails and belt molding would have fixed the problem. And back on topic, it is $1000 to fix my P0025 code for new magnets and I think solenoid valve actuator. My car has been a frequent flier lately for things breaking, come I suspect I'll be on to the next issue soon.
Without knowing anything about any of this, my only offering in defense of Mercedes is that the choices for that part were, A) it's no longer made, or B) it is, and that's the price. That's my hot take.
Without knowing anything about any of this, my only offering in defense of Mercedes is that the choices for that part were, A) it's no longer made, or B) it is, and that's the price. That's my hot take.
if its out of production and we want a rare trim piece made from old drawings and rare tooling likely binned 8 years ago by the original supplier - its not going to be cheap is it,
pop down a trim shop and best match it up for £200 or go to a very expensive one who understands the materials used and pay $800
the idea today is you steal 1 million a year over and above what you need / reasonable, and lease the colour you like - then put it in a skip at 18 months - its not supposed to be around 4 years later
I think Mercedes makes "an attempt" to keep parts around, especially for their high line cars. This is my observation as someone used to, say, US domestic GM vehicles, and now observing the parts situation for Mercedes. It's been a lot better than I am used to. I'm talking MORE about my E55 here (they did make a couple million W211s worldwide).
I think Mercedes makes "an attempt" to keep parts around, especially for their high line cars. This is my observation as someone used to, say, US domestic GM vehicles, and now observing the parts situation for Mercedes. It's been a lot better than I am used to. I'm talking MORE about my E55 here (they did make a couple million W211s worldwide).
there are laws in each market for how long a manufacturer MUST keep spares / support / servicing available
in Japan its only 3 years - they they throw it away (usually to other nearby RHD markets line Oz and NZ) Oz is OK as its dry but domestic market Japanese cars forego a lot of under-seal / salt protection and have baby batteries
could be wrong, but here I began to get the feeling US legislation is 5 years support of parts and labour?
in the European Union its mandated that all should be about for a minimum of 7 years. The thing here is memories of a simpler, slower, better, more sustainable world - In the old days when a model had a life of 10 Years, and the basic chassis and lots of the running gear might have been in production for 15 to 20 years, everything always seemed to be available forever - plus of course Mercs were once made like tanks and 40 years of life driving pretty much the same was normal. Now is 18 months no issues regardless of mileage - then the magic metal disintegrates on important bit, yes the body will look like new, but by year 3 its best to have something else on the drive.
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