K-A

Well then Bentley's been slacking (makes sense as they've had dull products for a long time now who looked like glamoured up VW's as far as I'm concerned until the Mulsanne showed up and the facelift GT refined its look). Rolls have been showing record sales/growth, you have cars like Tesla popping up and booming, if I remember correctly some Exotics have stated record sales recently, etc.

https://www.press.rolls-roycemotorca...&id=T0135967EN

M-B will TRY and expand their upper range portfolio, but IMO by expanding at the downmarket too prevalently (I mean, really, a FWD Mercedes that starts at under $30K in the States, what more needs to be said about their future intentions) will cancel that out and eventually less and less people will feel inclined to spend 6 figures on M-B's when there are $20-$30K FWD renditions all over the place. That's my theory and how I think it'll play out. It already has started as the upper range sells less than it did before and I hear from people I know in EU who have money and are looking at upper-end non-family cars that M-B's cachet isn't what it used to be, therefore spending big bucks on them isn't as enticing as before. The S Class however will always have its presence and command its price because it has a functional/necessity to it that you can't get with the smaller cars.

Having an identical looking C Class will make the S look very diluted in presence in just a few years when the C will "own" that look by ubiquity alone, rendering the S a "large C Class" looking car, mark my words.

When the 5 Series came out, the F01 7 became "unspecial" overnight to many, based on their sentiments about how closely each look. And that's a 5 Series, we're now talking a C Class who's far below the cachet of a 5 looking identical to the S. Not a good move, IMO.

Germancar1

The fact remains that none of those brands sell what they sold in the US just a few years ago. FACT.

Again, their growth is due to places like China and Russia.

All of what you're saying was said before when the 190E came out and it did nothing to hurt Mercedes only made them stronger. There is absolutely NOTHING factual to suggest any such downturn for Mercedes happening. The proof is in the fact the CLA and the S-Class are BOTH flying off dealer lots all over the world.

All you have is speculation, no facts.

C has looked like the S for the longest up until the W221 and the W204 did they part looks.

No the 7 Series caught hell because it is an overweight pig that is no longer the drivers car in the segment. That is now Audi and Jaguar. Has nothing to do with how the car looks, as they both look great. How do you gauge how special a car is, independently of looking at its sales figures? This generation 7 has been a commercial success regardless.

Just because you know some people who are turned off by certain things Mercedes doesn't mean squat overall. Everyone on the net has a story about people they know, means nothing until it shows up in a balance sheet at the company in question.


Comparing Rolls Royce to Mercedes sales wise is just plain silly. What you fail to realize is that since the Ghost came out at 250K a lot more people can afford a Rolls now, unlike when it was just the 350K+ Phantom. They cut the price of admission down by over 100K and that is what made them grow. Mercedes just did the same thing with the CLA and it isn't going to hurt them one bit as long as the car is solid.


I realize that you want Mercedes to be this untouchable brand that makes only 40K+ car, but that position is no long viable. The A/B/CLA/GLA shows that Mercedes is getting with the program and selling to a younger generation who will presumably move up in the brand. The world has changed. BMW is going FWD, Audi is already there, yet none of them sell what Mercedes does at the top end. How you figure Mercedes is going to be in oh so much trouble is beyond me and beyond logic. The same thing you're saying about the CLA was said in 1983 about the 190E, and it has morphed into the C-Class of today and is extremely successful for Mercedes.

Tesla has NOTHING to do with this discussion. They are a start up who hasn't proven that they have staying power yet. If it weren't for Daimler they wouldn't even be here BTW.

K-A

Fact remains that upper range M-B's aside from the S who offers a fundamental function, are in sales decline, and by expanding the lower range they are further giving incentives to high-rollers to avoid spending big bucks on M-B's. It's human logic.

About the C looking *IDENTICAL* to the S, we'll see how that plays out in sentiment in just 2-3 years. Let's revisit this thread. People can say right now that the C looks like a "mini-S", but I'm betting that in due time when every layman identifies that look with a C Class due to seeing 100 C's for ever 1 S, it will be criticized as looking like a "big C".

You like to listen to magazine reviewers so much, the F01 7 has won plenty of reviews against the W221 S, and even has won against the W222 S.

Yes, I do and as unreasonable as it is, unfortunately M-B's past follies got them to need to do stuff like this. However, they are expanding the lower range too fast, IMO, and it will in due time give people less incentive to get upper range, high dollar models who share such similarities with the cheaper models.

If you look into it closely, you see that the CLS is selling for WAY less than the 6 Series now, and it's actually selling LESS than the 6. BMW have gotten a 6 Series into the 6 figure range and the CLS can be had for like $60-$70K or something, yet the 6 STILL outsells the CLS. It will only get worse for the CLS with the CLA here.

It's about expectations. People EXPECT cachet from Mercedes, as that has been their calling card, so it puts them in a more detrimental place in this regard than Audi and BMW who have been more popularized by their lower range models.

Germancar1

Fact also is that everyone in that segment saw a big drop. Why can't you grasp this? I just gave you Bentley's numbers. The S nor 7 sell like they did just a few years ago? What part of that don't you get? Seriously, are you just going to ignore the facts?

NO car in the S Segment sells like it did before except the A8 which is an upstart. So you have no point.

Yep we will see because if the C is as good as the pics look it will be a big hit as will the S, heck it already is.

See this is why I think you're just either trolling or not capable of understanding what I just wrote.

I said that the 7 is no longer the drivers car. That has nothing to do with it beating the S since the S WAS NEVER the drivers car in the segment.

What you're saying is that you're glad the 7 has beat the S before ,while other cars run it off the road in categories in which it used to dominate. That is just plain ridiculous.


If you think that one comparison where the 7 beat the new S, when all the rest put the S first means something they hey roll with that.


M

C280 Sport

The C has always been made to look like a Mini S.

W202-W140
W203-W220
W204-W221
W205-W222


Nothing new here everyone...

Germancar1

Good thing you aren't in charge because the competition would leave Mercedes so far behind it isn't even funny.

Uh....wait a min, the 6-Series has a sedan, coupe and a convertible vs one sedan for the CLS. IT should outsell the CLS now. Common sense. The 6 is simply the hotter car design wise, no argument there, but what does that prove as it is a matter of opinion. They have more models to sell. Do you have the actual transaction prices for the CLS and the 6-Series? If not then you're speculating what they actual SELL for. You're looking at MSRP only, not what people are actually paying. Chances are the 6 is higher because it is insanely priced, but its a hot car so why not milk it. Good for BMW.

Expect Mercedes to expand at both ends and capture market at the top and the bottom. No it doesn't put them a more detrimental place. Dude look at the S-Class, does that seem like a car from a company that doesn't know what it is doing? People who truly understand Mercedes knows they build everything from buses to dump trucks. Don't you get it that if Mercedes makes cars like the S as stunning as they, they aren't going to lose that market? Only a pure badge snob would truly not buy a S because of a CLA, that is clueless fool IMO. Look at the car man, its a winner. They're only going up from there.

M

K-A

A new C and S will be huge hits regardless of how they look or act. That's the power of the M-B brand, which is what I feel is at stake with the excessive expansion of lower range models who mimic upper ranges. Yes the C has always resembled the S but even Audi would be envious of how identical the new C is to the new S. That's a great thing for the C, but not so much for the S as its presence will be diluted prematurely due to this. Just as the 7's was when the 5 came out, and again being a higher volume, lower range C, it will bode even worse for the S in that regard. The W221 was always very distinctive in the M-B lineup, the W204 loosely resembled it but it was NOT copy/paste. The W205 is completely externally copy/paste with the W222.

The W205 is poised to be the first C to truly "take over" the 3 Series indeed. BMW screwed up the F30 with that horrible front, terribly un-F-Series-BMW-like cheap interior and tacky pop up screen (which the C "me-too" unfortunately copies itself), so the W205 will have a walk in the park IMO.

Germancar1

The thing is where is this hurting when it comes to sales? It isn't. It is just your perception. When people buy a smaller Benz they want a larger one when they can afford it that is why they're making the cars look alike. I don't see the concern. People who have common enough sense will see that the C is its own car that looks like the S since the S came first. If both cars are class standouts then I fail to see the issue. They're even giving the C Airmatic, it will truly be a class leading car.

The C won't take the sports sedan crown away from the 3, it will be a non apologetic luxury car with some sport at the entry level, thats all. In pics, and beyond the screen placement the new C interior looks to be MILES ahead of the 3-Series.

BTW, your 5-Series just got beat by the E, CTS and A6 in the December issue of C&D and they even said the E's interior was perfectly executed. So much for that nonsense about the Chinese.

M

K-A

Please, C&D has had it out for BMW since day "F0 1", it's obvious BMW stopped paying for ads in the magazine. The E's interior is cheap plastic nightmare in comparison being a good class or two below the 5 there as is about everything else on it for that matter. C&D placing it above the F10 is about as non-sequitur as the F01 beating the W222 in an actual reputable German magazine. The F10 has made the W212 its play toy in various tests and worldwide sales, with the 535i even beating out the higher-placed E400. Not to mention, C&D used a 4WD 535i with a BASE suspension (no M suspension), no DHP, no Sport Auto tranny, etc. A RWD M suspension 535i (which is night and day from the car they tested, literally) would have gotten #1 in that test even with C&D's newfound anti-BMW bias.

Yes, the C will easily have its way with the current 3 in probably every way aside from driving dynamics. Design remains to be seen in real life as the 3 looks good but is hampered by an awkward front.

Germancar1

I love it. Now that the BMW has fallen there is something going on behind the scenes...gotta love a crazy old any type of conspiracy theory.

Uh...lol....I'll take the professionals word over yours.

SO when BMW was winning C&D was being paid and now they're not so they trash BMW, yet all over the world the 5-Series has been panned for its overweight, dull driving experience.

You're so lost and don't even know it. You don't even know why the 5-Series placed last yet you give a Gettysburg address of excuses and rants.

Now the magazine that LOVED BMWs for years and years has a new found bias because they aren't getting paid by them?

Anyone who isn't emotionally attached to a 5-Series knows that is has become soft, overweight and out classed dynamically by other cars, this time Audi and Cadillac. The Mercedes beat the BMW on interior and other non performance related things if you read the article. Have you, or are you just talking without any facts again?

Just to see if your wild theory about ads has any merit I'm thumbing through the November issue of C&D....and there it is, a BMW AD on pages 38-39. Another bogus statement by you proven to be just that, bogus.

How about accepting the truth, BMW has been licked by Cadillac, Audi and Jaguar in various classes when it comes dynamics. EVERY single publication on earth has stated as such, that BMW has gotten softer. Yet you think BMW lost a comparo because there are no BMW ads in the magazine, yet BMW ads are still in C&D. Wanna bet there is a BMW ad in the December issue?


Wait a min so the comparison that you used as the basis for you argument is bogus now?


E63 just beat the M5 also in MT comparo/video. Has BMW stopped payments to Motor Trend also?


If you bother to read the article you will see that the 5 didn't lose just because of its suspension.


I'm still laughing at this one " C&D has had it out for BMW since day "F0 1"". What about the fact that car is overweight and not nearly the sports sedan it used to be? Does that fact matter to you? You've said yourself that the same platform supports the 6,7 and Ghost, so uh....its heavy and no benchmark sport sedan anymore...this is universal. Find one comparison where the 5-Series was #1. It hasn't been in the ones I've seen. NO WHERE. Beating the E at dynamics is a non event since the E was never a sport sedan to begin with!


M

K-A

Too long, and I didn't read it.

You're right though, one review against hundreds of others who awards the other car the victor is always right. Therefore the F01 7 is superior to the W222 since it won in a very reputable magazine. You can't have it both ways. M-B loses EVERY test historically, so by your own admission, your excuses are invalidated. A lagging E350 "beats" the lowest equipped 5 Series and you have a parade, lol.

And only a lemming trusts a paid-off journalist over someone who has OWNED both cars in question and knows everything about them. But you already know that. Let's not even get into those who vote with their wallets who buy the F10 SO MUCH over the upset that is the W212 that it is the first 5 Series ever to not only beat, not only take over, but crush the E Class in worldwide market share. Let's also not forget that it statistically beats out the E Class in every measure, including being a whopping 30% stiffer (beating Mercedes at their own previous game).

The E350 must be better than the lowest-grade 535i you can get, but the 535i crushes the even better-than-E350 E400. Hmm. LOL.

Germancar1

Do you really not understand or do you pretend not to? The E400 is not upmarket from the 535i. They both have 3.0L turbocharged engines. They are equal in nearly every way on paper. I simply don't believe the E400 will replace the E550 in this country, it doesn't make sense.

Can you tell me why the 5-Series won? Do you read German? Dying to know. You found one comparo and it is the same one with only those 2 cars, big deal. You don't even know what they're saying besides the placement or do you?


Yet no where else has this been repeated? Use your common sense man, one test is an outlier.


You still haven't answered the question about the BMW ads in C&D still being there nor have you addressed the known issue of BMW going softer and that being the reason they don't win anymore. Beating an E-Class on dynamics is like saying BMW won styling vs Lexus. The Mercedes was never the sports sedan choice. Are you going to just ignore that too?

M

K-A

Well the 535i smacked down the E400, so the E350 isn't a problem.

Man, I love magazine racing! Let me go find the other HUNDREDS of tests where BMW's and the F10 whip on M-B's and the W212.

Exactly my point. Same applies to an E350 "beating" a 535i (especially if it were properly equipped with the RWD-only M suspension and Sport Auto trans). No way in hell.

Germancar1

Yet you don't know why the E won this test. One test the 535i beat the E400 in Germany, do you know why or what they said?


Well the E did beat the 5, yet you don't know why do you? Yet you're saying no way? Again, factless rant.

Read the article!

The point I'm trying to make here is that you're late. Late to BMW and you like them as do I, but you completely ignore the facts about them and you only seem to understand so much and then you just can't grasp it. BMW isn't half the sport sedan maker they used to be and if you think beating the E on dynamics is a victory then you're clueless about BMW.

M

K-A

"Late"? Lol. Dude, I learned to drive in a BMW, I passed my driving test in an E34, I rode extensively in every BMW between the late 80's and 90's, I've driven an E39 regularly, and was driving an E60 during the time I was shopping for my W220. I know BMW's and the heritage more than you can imagine. The F10 535i has no problem beating the E350 (and even E400 apparently, which is a testament to the F10) sportily. With M suspension and SAT it's no match whatsoever. The big catch is that it's far more refined, luxurious, solid and rides a lot better, not to mention gets better safety scores. I know this as a fact as I've had 3 between them so far. As for magazine tests, what C&D states about the two is not only inaccurate and clearly biased, but is opposite from the hundreds and hundreds of reviews where the 535i has crushed the E350 in practically every measure. BMW built the midsize Sedan that M-B always dreamed of making. Best part is, BMW actually designed it to be gorgeous to the point where they didn't want to mess with a winning formula for the facelift, therefore made minimal changes. M-B on the other hand, like manic messes couldn't stand watching the F10 whup on their E Class for the first time ever in worldwide sales, so did a hideous, Kit-Car esque, completely imbalanced, haphazard, awkwardly disjointed reconstructive-surgery facelift by way of grafting on new parts that have no correlation or harmony with the core design in any which way.

Regardless. This is irrelevant to the topic anyway. I know what I know between these cars as I've experienced them extensively first hand, you listen to one magazine review, I'll stick with my own knowledge, no changing of minds here between any parties. Carry on as you wish. Ramble and rant as you'd like, I said my pieces.

Germancar1

Yet you really don't know what BMWs were and are now. You know the heritage and what not more than I can imagine? You mean like you knew Mercedes-Benz?

You don't get it. A victory over a car that has never prided itself as a sports sedan, is a hollow victory for a BMW. Don't you realize that?

The only reason you holler bias is because the BMW lost. You didn't holler that when they were winning. Hundreds and Hundreds of reviews? Now you're going to just outright lie about it? There haven't been hundreds and hundreds of reviews on any car in just a few years man. 535i does not crush the E350 or E400 in every measure. Again more empty rhetoric. I love you gloss over the fact that the 5-Series has had its *** handed to it by facelifted E and then since day one by the A6 and now the CTS.

I don't have to listen one magazine review, I used it because that is what you mainly build you case on. Your experience with the cars is nearly invalid because just 18 months ago the E-Class was the best thing on the road. That makes you either clueless then or a liar now. Don't trust anything you say for good reason you're bs has been exposed too many times.

You think because you learned how to drive on a BMW makes you an expert on them? That is hilarious. In that case I'm a Chevy expert. Right?

You can't address that outside of beating the E on dynamics, the 5-Series has been run off the road by Jaguar, Audi, Lexus and even Cadillac. Crickets..........


M

BenzV12

K-A , Wolfman already said why BMW F10 won it's simple because of maintenance cost and they dropped a note stating MB was better car overall. Better means everything.
Here's a test comparison BMW F01 vs MB W222 S500 Long ripped by Auto Bild , not in German version but Auto Bild test overall ,I have not heard of BMW stopped payments to Auto Bild either
Basically, title says This star leaves the 7 Series in shadow and when you look at the last page MB picks up 5 star whereas BMW 4.5 I guess
Anyway, I really don't care deeply which marque win or lost . I buy the cars by their looks and MB makes the cars better styled to my eyes both interior and exterior wises
What makes me upset is you seem to distort some facts K-A when you take that comparison test , you only focused on the 1st spot but don't seem to read why BMW F10 was granted that spot
There is nothing wrong with W205 being called as mini W222 and will not put a dent on W222s either , I don't wanna utilize same routine things nicely well put by Germancarfan1 ,I wholeheartedly agree with his posts in this matter

K-A

Actually the 535i scored higher in handling and design than the E400 in that test as well, they stated that both are great cars, but the 5 Series is also more comfortable and a far better value (I believe someone translated it to say they thought the 5 has a better interior as well). The huge feat of the test is that the E400 is placed higher than the 535i, in price and positioning, yet the 535i got #1, plain and simple, an "old" drivetrain model beating out the newest M-B has to offer. The 535i and E350 are competitors based on price and positioning, yet the 535i as a total package was more than able to handle an E400.

I don't give a rats butt about magazine tests anyway If anyone here did, then nobody would drive M-B's because M-B's finish dead last in about every test. Hell the 650i Convertible without M Sport got #1 over a brand new SL550. What does that mean? Nothing really. If we want to "magazine race" then the F10 has beat the W212 in 99.99% of the tests they've embarked on, so parading around one distorted "test" where an E350 was hilariously placed above a 535i (my theory is that it's basically C&D trolling, especially by allowing the worst spec 535i to be used) is about as meaningful as doing so when the F01 7 Series beats the precious new W222 in an even much more reputable test (which it did, proof above).

LETO

What has this got to do with the subject of the thread? I know I for one with others have chosen to put K-A on our ignore list and don't have to see his ramblings.

However, I suggest to the moderator that he intervene & do something so every thread on the W222 forum is not a pissing contest between BMW & MB.

As others have mentioned there is a lot of useful information on this forum for people who are interested in the W222. It is a lot harder when you have to sift through a litter box full of K-A K-A!

K-A

Indeed. Ask the people who divert the attention to BMW. Check the thread log, in fact several thread logs. Why'd the 5 Series get dragged into this? Why'd it get brought up in my review thread of W222? Wasn't me who brought it up in either case, check the logs. I get baited into these conversations. I don't have a responsibility to avoid conversations that keep getting shoved into my face by my resident fanclub.

GermanCarFan obsessively stalks my every post, trying to turn it into a new pissing contest conversation. That's in fact against the TOU, as are the continuous insults by him or her of which are NEVER reciprocated by me in such fashion. Again, check the logs, I try and leave the threads alone yet he or someone else trolls my posts to get me back in (clearly everyone enjoys it, it's the only action this forum really gets).

Be adults, drop it and move on. If you troll my posts, don't be shocked when I respond by arguing my case.

Quadcammer

Are you ****ing kidding me?

The first reference to bmw is shown above. Guess who made that post.

Quadcammer

next mention of the 5 series...yet again, by guess who.

MDMercedesGuy

Yet the 5 can't even compete in a comparison test with the rest of its class (and there was a nice dig at the 7 in the article, too).

These arguments keep popping up over and over. It's like it's the damn K-A show around here.

MDMercedesGuy

There's a simple solution that for whatever reason there is a resistance to employing against K-A around here...

Germancar1

He won't get it, now he says that he doesn't care about what the magazines say. First it was they were being paid, now he doesn't care what they say.

Typical. Now C&D is trolling. This is said without even knowing the facts. Just like the German 5 vs E test.


M