mleskovar

Understand that Tesla exists only because the government subsidizes both the manufacturing costs and consumer purchasing costs. We, the people, helped you buy your Tesla. Yes it's a good car. What remains to be seen is if they can do it on their own. How many private industries in the US do you know about that were subsidized by the government to produce and sell their product? It's a Socialist car artificially priced to increase the demand.

Let's analyze the Kool Aid you've been drinking. Do you know why TOU exists? It's off peak hours use when they have to keep the machines spinning that generate the electricity but the power goes to waste because no one is using it. With your scenario of "everyone with electric cars" there will be no off peak hours. Electricity consumption will more than double. The grid needs major upgrades to handle that increase in volume and the price of electricity will skyrocket for all users, home and industry as well (by design), to keep up with the demand.


I spent a career in the computer industry where "don't worry, the next software/hardware upgrade will solve your problem" was the salesman's mantra. Battery technology has stalled and the problem of power density isn't increasing much any more. "Super capacitors" were supposed to be the answer but after hundreds of millions of dollars in investment loss, research, and hype they are dead at the alter. How to provide power to cars that are parked on the street, in lots, and carports needs to be answered before "everyone goes electric" and that's a lot of cars. Answer the obvious simple questions before claiming a revolution, if you can.

WEBSRFR

Oh please. Give me a break with the government subsidized nonsense and "We the people..." BS like you are standing up for something unless you want to be a complete hypocrite. It is an intellectually dishonest argument on so many levels. The fact that you are trotting that out is likely because you have failed on all the other arguments.

Let me explain to you some of the reasons why that it is such an intellectually dishonest argument:

• Gasoline cars are heavily subsidized via oil company tax credits & unpaid public health costs.
• I'm astounded by the fact that receiving tax breaks for companies in manufacturing (you may know them as "Job Creators") is such a foreign concept for you. It is done at every segment, industry, and level of business enterprises in the country.
• So if the concept of government subsidies to corporations that create jobs bothers you so much. may I suggest that you start with your outrage directed at the companies on the chart below.
• So unless you want to be a complete hypocrite on the matter you should stop flying in Boeing airplanes, using any electronics with Intel components, as well as not doing business with any bank, financial, or insurance institutions in the US.
• Other countries are pouring money into nurturing innovative companies that create jobs and revolutionize industries. Be grateful Tesla is an American company and not a Chinese company.
• If you need any further proof on the economic impact Tesla is having in the United States already, understand that Tesla is now the largest automobile industry employer in California. Be grateful that this American company is creating manufacturing jobs in the United States unlike other companies that ship jobs overseas. http://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/te...in-california/
• Also I hope you realize that it is government research funding and subsidies that led to the development of the Internet. Given how much you abhor government investments in technology, I suppose you should boycott using the Internet as well.

People like you throwing the word "socialist" around neither have absolutely any clue what socialism is about or what it means. The story of Tesla building a car company based on American ingenuity and innovation with great risk and hard work against daunting odds is the antithesis "socialism" and it is what makes America the greatest country on earth.

And if a miniscule amount of tax money goes to "seed" the success of Tesla and it brings manufacturing to the Unites States in a large scale I would say that is a hugely beneficial investment for our economy as well as security compared to all the money we **** away at our Military Industrial Complex.

Your other two points are equally intellectually bankrupt and ignorant of facts to do with research and development pertaining to the development of technology but I don't have time to address those two points for now.



Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...in-each-state/

MTrauman

Wow! I am having a tough time responding to all your inaccuracies.


You are talking absolute nonsense and do not know how to marshal facts for your arguments. I wished I would have met you when I was in law school because I would have or the professor would have made fun of your inability to argue the facts since you simply cannot get facts straight. In a court today you simply would stop going to court because you would be too embarrassed because your facts are inaccurate.




So you say Tesla is CA's largest employer? I don't think so. By the way your one link does not work to prove Tesla is the largest employer in CA.


I am guessing Tesla does not employee more than 42,951 employees in CA. Do they? That number is for the Naval Base in San Diego. What did you mean? Auto Industry perhaps?

WEBSRFR

The link I enclosed only works when you are redirected to it from Google. I replaced it with another source.

What I mean to say is that Tesla became the largest automobile industry employer in California eclipsing GM and Toyota.

I stand by everything else I said.

I can see how some might find the truth about subsidies to be terribly inconvenient when they can no longer pick and choose what they wish to be outraged about while being hypocritical about the rest

mleskovar

You need to step away from the keyboard and think before you reply next time.

What arguments? Have I missed something? So far it's been you spouting the superiority of electric cars and either ignoring to answer the common complaints about them or discounting the facts with nonsensical drivel. Why are you taking exception to using the term Socialist? It's true and not a dirty word. You were spouting off about how exceptional Tesla is and I pointed out they had help getting to where they are today. That's how Socialism works. In America Capitalism reigns and government meddling in industry is usually frowned upon. We even block trade on certain products from countries that offer unfair advantages in that market through government subsidies. Daunting odds? Bribe the manufacturer and then bribe the seller is "DAUNTING ODDS". Get real.

Typical "oil companies are raping us" fallacy. We pay taxes to the oil companies at the pump and they give it to the state and federal government. In fact they transfer WAY more to the government than they receive and it's good business for the governments. So who is subsidizing who? Tell me another product that's taxed so high.

I didn't say I dislike government investments in technology.....you just said I did. And it's not miniscule....just the Federal rebates program for the last two years gave $200M to Tesla buyers. That's not counting state rebates nor Federal tax advantages. Your list of state and local subsidies are tax incentives to do business in the state, not Federal rebates, 'special' loans, or tax advantages not offered to all businesses. Do you know the difference? One is redistributing OUR taxes and the other is not charging tax AT THE LOCAL LEVEL because the workers will enhance economy and create revenue....locally. FYI....DARPA ( Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) is that nasty military industrial complex outfit that pissed away money inventing the internet.

Of course you don't. That's why you've basically answered none of the points brought out but find time for evangelical rants about how electric cars are on the cusp of taking over from ICE cars. I'm surprised Tesla hasn't found you out and requested you cease and desist because you're embarrassing them.

WEBSRFR

mleskovar, I get it. You like to pick and choose what you complain about and be hypocritical about the rest.

Let us agree to disagree and move on.

mleskovar

No, you were the one going off tangent so don't make things up. Several people had specific reasons/concerns about why EVs won't be predominant in the near future like you claim and you didn't address one of them. Agree, move on.

Bison600

I chose the S-class over the Tesla mainly because the interior was incredibly inferior compared to the S-class. Great technology and I think Tesla is doing/will be doing great things, but it just didn't make much sense to me as to why the Tesla looked nice, has great technology, but the interior couldn't match the other great qualities of the car.

Plus as a car enthusiast, the aftermarket modifications aren't really out there yet besides wheels and maybe a carbon fiber piece here or there, so that was a big factor for me.

WEBSRFR

If the interior of the car is your most important priority I can completely understand why the S Class made more sense to you. The S Class no longer leads the industry in the technology department, especially considering how far ahead Tesla is with semi autonomous tech.

Mercedes is doing what they can to improve their technology but they are slow to adapt while improvements made by Tesla are instantly made available to the entire fleet of Tesla vehicles via over the air software updates. With Mercedes you have to buy a brand new car if you want the latest autonomous driving or safety tech and it's becoming an increasingly antiquated approach to technology.

Tesla is upping their interior though and a Model S redesign is on the horizon. I was driven in a Model X recently and the interior felt decided more refined than in our Model S.

e_dasani

And also to clarify, there is nothing in common between Tesla and a S-class except the word "S" (as in model s) and the fact you keep talking about it in the S-class forum.

Tesla is an electric car, and MB is a gasoline. Tesla has more in common with Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf except the fact that Volt and Leaf are better buys

WEBSRFR

You are of course entitled to your opinion and we can agree to disagree.

Our Tesla Model S purchase displaced the purchase of an S Class and the same goes to several other forum members who have chimed into say they bought a Tesla over a Mercedes S Class.

As far as I'm concerned both cars compete in the ~ 100K premium 4 door sedan market. From the looks of it, Tesla is starting to dominate that market at the expenses of every other manufacturer/model in that segment loosing marker share to Tesla. You can't spin the data on this chart any other way.

Just wait until the end of 2016 when Model S sales are set to increase by another 50% and Model X production ramps up. Fewer and fewer people will be lining up to buy a car with a smoke stack on the rear of the car



Source: http://electrek.co/2016/02/10/tesla-...ket-in-the-us/

e_dasani

and what exactly is your objective of lurking on an MB Forum. I mean, Is Tesla too boring? that it leaves you so badly craving for a Mercedes, and the only way to satisfy is to sing songs of Tesla on an MB forum.

mercedesbenzs55

Sounds like a Tesla salesman.

SHHKNewport

S class versus Tesla is like a Rolex versus a comparably priced gold Edition Apple Watch...
matter of personal preference and aesthetics...

Dema

I just realized that Tesla have serious money problem and very low sales numbers. It is the reason why they started the thread trying to pull some S class owners. It is a ridiculous marketing strategy. I doubt any S class owner will ever look at Tesla. However now Tesla seemed changed a strategy trying to target buyers with not so deep pocket. They already reserved over 150,000 buyers for $35k model 30. Now time to move the thread to Toyota Camry forum.

Rock

Actually 250,000 orders. http://fox4kc.com/2016/04/02/tesla-m...-and-counting/

WEBSRFR

Welcome to the thread! If you actually took the time to follow it you will know it was created by an MBWorld forum member who purchased a Model S over an S Class. But feel free to go crazy with your asinine conspiracy theories because you can't grasp what is happening in the automotive industry and would rather live in denial.

Trying to target buyers with not so deep pocket? Seriously? As in what Mercedes does with the C Class, Audi does with the A4, and BMW does with the 3 series? That's where a large part of revenue is for the German car manufacturers.

With almost 300,000 reservations for the Tesla Model 3 that competes with the best selling entry level premium cars made by the Germans, it looks like Tesla is about to eat the German's lunch not just in the upper end premium car segment but also in the entry level premium car segment as well.

Tesla now changed their strategy? Tesla never changed their strategy. They are diligently following through a plan Elon Musk laid out in 2006. By all looks of it, the plan is working out exactly as they intended. It is interesting to see how prescient the strategy was back in 2006.

https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/sec...een-you-and-me

WEBSRFR

Low sales numbers? As in Tesla sales going up 50% every year? As in the Model S now being the market leader in the upper end ~$100K 4-door premium car segment? As in there being a 2 month wait to receive a car after placing an order because demand is so strong?

Yes, Tesla will need funds to ramp up production but in less than a week after announcing the Model 3, they now have nearly 300,000 reservations for the vehicle worth over $10,000,000,000 in sales. Yes, they will have to invest in manufacturing to book over $10B in sales. If only other car manufacturers had a product so desirable with essentially guaranteed sales.

Mercedes or any other car manufacturer can only dream of receiving over a quarter billion dollars worth of deposits for a car they announced that will not ship for another year and a half.

And the real kicker is that Tesla revealed very few specific details about the Model 3 as that won't happen until "part 2" of the reveal next year. Just wait until the actual interior and technology of the car is revealed.

And the Model S is about to be updated as well. Still no other car manufacturer offers a modern electric car even remotely competitive with the Model S that was released back in 2012 and that's embarrassing.

From the state of the upper end premium US car market, it seems only Tesla's competition is having problems with low sales numbers as fewer people are lining up to buy a car with a smoke stack attached to it.

mleskovar

You still don't get it. Without manufacturing and buyer subsidies artificially lowering their purchase price electric cars would appeal to so few that there would be no market. Countries in the EU that were heavily subsidizing 'Green' initiatives like electric cars are discontinuing them because it's not a sustainable model. Companies that were relying on the subsidies have already or are going bankrupt. The only thing that's taking over is reality. Great cars in the proper environment but far from taking over. You are a useful idiot for the electric car market.

WEBSRFR

The buyer subsidies are helpful but you will find out soon enough when Tesla passes the 200,000 vehicle threshold (which they will soon enough) that they will not have any meaningful effect on Tesla sales.

Many consumers, like we did, will determine that a Tesla offers a more modern, technologically sophisticated, and a more refined driving experience compared to a gasoline car. For our fully loaded Model S, we actually ended p paying moore than we would have for the S Class we had in mind.

The same way people buy gasoline cars without subsidies, they will buy premium electric cars without subsidies. What we don't see with gasoline cars are customers lining up to put down a deposit for nearly 300,000 vehicles when the car is an year and a half from being released. That's how desirable premium and well designed electric cars are.

Yes, calling people names when you can't win an argument based on facts or logic is real mature.

People like you have been proclaiming Tesla's impending bankruptcy since the company was founded. If you are so convinced of it, why don't you short the stock and let us know later how that turns out for you? Sit back with your denial tonic and watch the future pass you by

I wonder if you will continue to maintain how no one will buy premium electric cars when Mercedes finally builds their electric car 6 years too late.

UrBusted

No it's not. The S Class still is the market leader in the upper end 100k 4 door premium car segment, and has been for the past 10 years I think around the world. You don't have to wait for 2 months due to demand, you have to wait 2 months because they don't have the capacity to build a high amount of cars yet, which is going to change with the gigafactory. I also think that the model 3 sales would be at around 125,000 or less when you have to end up giving deposits. Nevertheless, that is still very impressive for such a brand.

WEBSRFR

I see what you did there. You basically decided to separate the top 5-10% of the S Class sales that account for the AMG models and the S600 so you can proclaim that the S Class is in "market leader" in the over $150K segment. Yippee doo dah! You realize by that admission Mercedes has ceded leadership of 90% of the S Class market segment under $150K to Tesla; right?

You have to wait 2 months because Tesla is doing everything they can to increase production. They've increased production 50% year after year and they still are not able to meet demand as each time their production goes up 50% even more people want to purchase a Tesla. And this is without any advertising or a vast dealer network.

The Model 3 ramp up will be quite interesting to watch. Their intended goal within the next few years is to build 500,000 cars annually. The NUMI factory they operate out of actually used to build close to 500,000 at some point so it is not that far fetched they will figure out a way to utilize that factory to reach maximum capacity.

Realize that with less than one week of reservations, they are sitting on potentially over $10 billion in sales and that is enough for quite a nice package of capital expenditures to increase production. The finest American engineers are on the job and they specifically designed the Model 3 to be easier to produce so I am sure the best manufacturing minds in America can figure out how to produce the Model 3 as expeditiously as possible.

What Tesla has accomplished is not just impressive for Tesla but would have been impressive for Mercedes or any other brand. Before the Model 3 was even reveled, hundreds of people waited in line all across the world to place a deposit for a Model 3 without even knowing what it looked like. By the time the car was revealed Tesla has already received over 100,000 orders. They should reach 300,000 reservations soon. This 300,000 figure is just about the entire market capitalization of the US entry level luxury car business and Tesla saturated that market within a week.

Clearly the demand is there for innovative premium electric cars.

Just realize all these reservations are based almost entirely on the reputation, technology, and performance of the Model S and what a phenomenal car Tesla has build. What is exciting is that the Model S is about to receive an interior and exterior redesign and will become an even better car with a rumored 100 KWh battery pack.

With hundreds of thousands of paid reservations for the Model 3 what we are seeing now is unprecedented in the automotive industry. That inflection point in moving to electric cars that some thought is 20-30 years away? Well, we are on the verge of seeing the beginning of that. Certainly exciting times for automotive enthusiasts to witness the transformation of an industry.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...mepage%2Fstory

http://electrek.co/2016/03/31/tesla-...-reservations/

WEBSRFR

Correction: The US market capitalization of the entry level luxury car segment of the US is about 418,000 units and not about 300,000 as I had guessed. Still it would be impressive if Tesla receives orders for 3/4 of the entire market capitalization of that segment within just a week of announcing their Model 3.

Based on this demand I predict the same way the Model S is the market leader in the 4 door ~$100K premium sedan market, the Model 3 will become the market leader in the entry level premium car market as well. This is basically Mercedes' bread and butter.

The only thing I find astounding is that with such immense demand for premium, technologically sophisticated, long range electric cars, the Germans are still years from bringing to market a vehicle that is competitive with what Tesla released in 2012.

It seems American innovation is once again about to show the world how to reinvent and redefine a whole industry. Within a decade some children who grow up with electric cars will look at gasoline powered cars, the way we look at steam trains.

UrBusted

What are you still talking about with the Model S being the market leader? The Model S is at roughly 140-150,000 in sales since 2012. You can tell this from the VIN Numbers. The Mercedes S Class sold 100,000 vehicles in the 11 months from first deliveries in 2013. Now you may say we are under the assumption that they will continue selling at that rate. Even if their sales were slashed by half the next year and the year after, the S Class would still have at least 175,000 sales.
I would say that around 100,000 people out of the 250,000 would be ready to place deposits, if that. If they sell the cars at 42k each thats around 4.2 billion dollars. I'm sure you've read that Tesla was meant to have sold every car in 2020 to Uber if it were fully autonomous. Tesla said they would make something similar to Uber. Now it appears that Uber has been in the process of placing an order of 100,000 S Class', when the autonomous technology shown in 2013 is ready for the road. That is around 10 billion dollars in a single sale. Even if that deal doesn't go through, the sales figures show the S Class is, and has been the market leader in the S Class for a very long time. I still don't understand what you're talking about separating the AMGs and S600. I just quoted what you said and changed it. I never once mentioned above 150k. I just included every S Class, the same way you included every Model S. Currently, it would still take a while for Tesla to catch up to the premium brands. Mercedes made 88.75 billion last year, I'm not sure that 10 billion in sales. Mercedes make close to 30 billion in a quarter, but of course that would be reduced depending on which quarter so 88.75 billion is a good estimate made by an independent company. The S Class has been the leader of the premium luxury segment since it was first made in 1972 with the exception of I think 5 years, some of those being 1997, 1998 and 2002. You're saying market leader, you forget to mention marked leader of US. Tesla sold 50,000 Model S globally last year. Mercedes sold 8,473 S Class' in January 2016. Let's include a 10% decline in sales, so around 7,500 sales a month. Without even using a calculator we can see that the S Class still is the market leader in the premium luxury segment.

The Tesla Model S really isn't a premium luxury car, it's more on the level of the E Class, which sells more than Tesla does in the world, in the US. This comparison is quite "better" due to both cars being similar in luxury(exception of the Designo E63S), price, and performance at price, and with the W213, technology. Performance can also be a factor at similar price with the E550 and E63S competing with the Model S p70/80/85d. Of course there is nothing to compete with the P90D. My question for you, is under what grounds is the Model S being compared to the S Class? A top spec P90D can be bought for the price of a decently specced S550, or where I am a highly specced S350, both of which we can all say aren't the correct comparison to the P90D. The same way you feel about a E Class being compared to a Model S, is the way most of us feel about the Model S being compared to the S Class. Of course, they can be cross shopped, but the S Class suits only a certain sort of people, in the same way a Model S suits certain people.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/18/u...-class-report/
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...sedans-report/
http://electrek.co/2016/03/18/uber-o...tonomous-cars/

TL;DR : S Class is still the market leader in the premium luxury segment around the world. Uber may be buying 100,000 S Class' due to autonomy by 2020. The Mercedes E Class is a more appropriate comparison to the Tesla Model S.

WEBSRFR

I said in the United States. The Model S is in fact the market leader in the US in the 4 door ~$100K premium car segment. The chart I posted is self explanatory.

If you want further corroboration, here it is:

http://fortune.com/2016/02/11/tesla-...-luxury-sedan/

What happened in the US is now happening in Europe country by country where as Tesla ramps up their supercharger network and presence Tesla Model S sales are starting to eclipse the S Class sales also in Europe. In a bunch of countries in Europe, the Model S is already outselling the S Class in the same price range. This report is several months old but the Model S is on the verge of outselling the S Class even in Europe, and this news comes from a BMW blog:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/10/19/te...des-in-europe/