Is anyone interested
#51
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 622
Likes: 215
From: Charlotte, NC
2023 GLE450, 2021 E350 / Used to drive: 2019 E300, 2021 + 2020 GLE350, 2019 E450 Wagon(s), 2017 E300
This is an interesting conversation... As someone driving my first MB at 49 years old ( an E300 ) I have been thinking a lot about what to do when the lease expires in December. Having now driven the car for 30 months, I really like it, I recognize the incremental quality over other vehicles, but I am not sufficiently "wow'ed" that I am clamoring for another MB. Streamliner, your depiction of Luxury Experience Dilution is correct - even though I never had the benefit of prior MB experience - the dealer / service experience really is nothing special. Revolving door of advisers, with zero knowledge of vehicles, loaners with expired tags and just a general "who cares" attitude after the sale. It's not so much a financial issue as it is a value issue to me - I guess I expected the overall experience to be very different - and it's not.
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hyperion667 (04-21-2019)
#52
the dealer / service experience really is nothing special. Revolving door of advisers, with zero knowledge of vehicles, loaners with expired tags and just a general "who cares" attitude after the sale. It's not so much a financial issue as it is a value issue to me - I guess I expected the overall experience to be very different - and it's not.
if you have choices, nose around. Not all are the same.
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Lanzz (04-21-2019)
#53
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 680
Likes: 175
From: Maryland
18 MB S63, 2022 911 Turbo S, 23 BMW M5C
Whoa... wow. So every C Class loaner I've had I loved. I liked the CLA too and never had any issue with it. I got a tiny GLA once that was fun, and mostly now, they give me an E Class since the service guy finds me funny and kind. Either car I get I'm extremely grateful for. Before my Mercedes, I had used, very used BMW's and had to take them to indies for service where I never got a loaner, never got a nice cappuccino, never got free scones or blueberry muffins, all stuff I get for free at my MB dealer now.
I will never forget driving that AMC Hornet my roommate lent me for a year, a couple years after college, since I was down on my luck. It had a spring sticking up and out of the front seat so big that I had to sit on a telephone book while driving it so it didn't stick my in the you know what. Driving an S Class and getting a free MB loaner, whatever the loaner is, is a joy. A total, and utter joy.
I will never forget driving that AMC Hornet my roommate lent me for a year, a couple years after college, since I was down on my luck. It had a spring sticking up and out of the front seat so big that I had to sit on a telephone book while driving it so it didn't stick my in the you know what. Driving an S Class and getting a free MB loaner, whatever the loaner is, is a joy. A total, and utter joy.
#54
Mercedes used to build a car with the idea that everything had to be the best with zero compromises. Anybody who had a 126 or 140 knows that the build quality was 2nd to none but Mercedes also was dictating what their cars looked like and came equipped with. Heck, they wouldn't even give you a cup holder because they didn't want to. Now I have a 2" thick manual with 90% of the items I will never use and only look them up so I can shut them off after inadvertently turning them on.
Read the Toyota Way and you quickly realize that Toyota has had such an influence on the automotive industry that it is scary. Toyota in my opinion has destroyed the idea of building the best regardless of cost. Toyota showed the world that you can take every single part and hollow it out til it costs 1/10th of its original cost and can now barely work for a set amount of years. Add acceptable failure and complaint rates and its now the accountants running the show. Never change tranny fluid? of course its acceptable when you'r not buying a car for life to hand down to your kids. Then throw in the best advertising firms and the birth of the internet and you have a world winning product before it is even made, at least that's what the package says.
I tell my kids all the time I feel bad for them as they will never know what a real quality product is.
As far as dealers I have realized the the large publicly held Co like Penske or? have the worst customer service and that is because they are all employees not owners. I look for smaller dealers who want the business and have a vested interest. The give you a C class because they have to its dictated by the numbers not the owner trying to make you a happy come back customer!
Read the Toyota Way and you quickly realize that Toyota has had such an influence on the automotive industry that it is scary. Toyota in my opinion has destroyed the idea of building the best regardless of cost. Toyota showed the world that you can take every single part and hollow it out til it costs 1/10th of its original cost and can now barely work for a set amount of years. Add acceptable failure and complaint rates and its now the accountants running the show. Never change tranny fluid? of course its acceptable when you'r not buying a car for life to hand down to your kids. Then throw in the best advertising firms and the birth of the internet and you have a world winning product before it is even made, at least that's what the package says.
I tell my kids all the time I feel bad for them as they will never know what a real quality product is.
As far as dealers I have realized the the large publicly held Co like Penske or? have the worst customer service and that is because they are all employees not owners. I look for smaller dealers who want the business and have a vested interest. The give you a C class because they have to its dictated by the numbers not the owner trying to make you a happy come back customer!
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#55
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,505
Likes: 3,806
From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
This is an interesting conversation... As someone driving my first MB at 49 years old ( an E300 ) I have been thinking a lot about what to do when the lease expires in December. Having now driven the car for 30 months, I really like it, I recognize the incremental quality over other vehicles, but I am not sufficiently "wow'ed" that I am clamoring for another MB. Streamliner, your depiction of Luxury Experience Dilution is correct - even though I never had the benefit of prior MB experience - the dealer / service experience really is nothing special. Revolving door of advisers, with zero knowledge of vehicles, loaners with expired tags and just a general "who cares" attitude after the sale. It's not so much a financial issue as it is a value issue to me - I guess I expected the overall experience to be very different - and it's not.
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superangrypenguin (04-22-2019)
#56
I have a great relationship with the dealer personnel. No appointment, I can literally pull up in the middle of the day give my SA the keys and get a loaner no problem. If I can't pick up the car the same day, keep the loaner until the next day. They have treated me so well, it's one of the main reasons I keep going back. I've wanted to try other makes but they make it so easy I just keep coming back. I must say, my MB experience on the ground with my dealer has been nothing short of terrific. Guarantee lowest price on tires, and always throws in a small discount at service time. If you are having a difficult time with your dealer, shop around. Don't settle.
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superangrypenguin (04-22-2019)
#57
Super Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 538
Likes: 79
From: United Kingdom
Porsche Taycan, Range Rover AB, Range Rover SVR, S Class, Mclaren 570s, Urus Hybrid (soon), M3, RS6
I'd also add, after configuring and receiving delivery of 4 cars in as many years, I was asked not to return to the dealer because of 'behavior'.....caused by the crappiest service you've ever seen.......so no, money doesn't buy respect OR the right to exceptional service.
Last edited by UrBusted; 04-22-2019 at 06:42 AM.
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hyperion667 (04-22-2019)
#58
MBUSA Customer service treated me well but my local dealership could have cared less. Not once during my 39 and 22 day long service visits my 2015 S550 sat through did anyone do anything to make my experience "better". Was only lied to and told that's how it is, No sorry, No comps no nothing. Even got the car back after the 22 day stay with a "Service A0 overdue by 15 days" reminder on the dash display!!! If I would have been told "Oh, your service A0 was due so we performed it on the house".... An oil change.... A simple oil change would have made me feel a little better but nope... Nothing. I was going to go for another S class but after thinking it over long and hard..... I am 100% done with MB. They are just another car manufacture, Nothing special... Just an expensive car with a nice interior. I remember when they had a handful of models, Now they have every size possible crossover, hatch, suv and sedan. We have A, C ,E, S and Maybach sedans, CLA, C, E, CLS, S and GT Coupes, GLA, GLC, GLE SUV's, G class SUV's, E class wagons, All the cabriolet models and roadsters and then the hybrid and electrics. Then mix in all the variables each car is available in..... MB is diluted. It's no longer an "exclusive" vehicle like a Rolls or a Bentley. Anyone can own one, and if you are into burning money just get an S class. Depreciation is Huge..... How can a $130k car lose 50% of its value in just 3 years?? I've seen 2012 and 2013 S class cars for sale for $10k to $16k and a few 2014 W222 cars offered for $30k. I had a 2006 Dodge RAM 2500 4x4 Mega Cab diesel truck, It's window sticker was $52k, I bought it in 2010 for $35k with only 17k miles on it.. I drove it until 2 weeks ago when I sold it for $27k with 155k miles on it. Never touched a thing other than ball joints, oil, filters and brakes. I'm picking up my new 2018 Dodge RAM 2500 4x4 Mega Cab diesel truck this week and it's pretty nice. Window sticker is $72,695.00 and in 5 years it will still be worth $50k.
#59
Super Moderator
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,134
Likes: 3,353
From: Land of 10,000 lakes
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
The quality of the dealers and relationships with sales and service defines the experience. This has little to do with brand unless companies (like Rolls Royce) make this a contractual requirement.
A customer of course associates the experience with the brand. If there is a choice to pick another dealer it's easy, but many have geographic restrictions.
To improve the service, customers in the US actually have very powerful tools but many fail to use them. MBUSA rewards excellent service and penalizes poor ones. To the point of hurting the dealers bottomline.
Besides preferred allocations, dealers have hold backs and revenue sharing deals for financing in place. All these numbers change based on how the dealer performs.
Number one tool is still the follow-up survey. This can benefit or hurt the dealer; use it! If service wasn't good and the car was done right, don't just yell but be reasonable, ask them to make it right so that you can give them a 5 star rating. Talking to the service manager often helps as well.
Dealers make the most money on service and trade-ins, not new cars.
A customer of course associates the experience with the brand. If there is a choice to pick another dealer it's easy, but many have geographic restrictions.
To improve the service, customers in the US actually have very powerful tools but many fail to use them. MBUSA rewards excellent service and penalizes poor ones. To the point of hurting the dealers bottomline.
Besides preferred allocations, dealers have hold backs and revenue sharing deals for financing in place. All these numbers change based on how the dealer performs.
Number one tool is still the follow-up survey. This can benefit or hurt the dealer; use it! If service wasn't good and the car was done right, don't just yell but be reasonable, ask them to make it right so that you can give them a 5 star rating. Talking to the service manager often helps as well.
Dealers make the most money on service and trade-ins, not new cars.
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superangrypenguin (04-22-2019)
#60
Super Moderator
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,134
Likes: 3,353
From: Land of 10,000 lakes
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
I think there are many people here like myself that value and care about the brand. We have demonstrated this through years of loyalty and lots of our hard earned dollars spent.
The MB of yesterday as Streamliner noted, would be too expensive and inefficient to replicate or produce. Got that. Today's cars are of course better in so many ways, efficient, safer, more luxurious, faster, and of course less we forget smarter. However regardless of warranty and service now vs then, todays cars are far more complex and unreliable than before. Sure, people rolled there high line cars every year into newer ones but that was far less prevalent than now. Today sooner trade-ins are more out of reliably issues or more recent software upgrades. What good is an engine that is better today at 60K miles when the supporting cast such as 100+ solenoids, microprocessors, and software issues are suspect. Sure the engine won't breakdown at 60 or 100 or even 200K but we all know that other parts will that weren't around 10 or 20 years ago. The paradigm has shifted, not necessarily bad, not necessarily good either. Just different. We reap the benefits of technology and progress but at an added expense.
As for the approach being different, sure high end products are disposable and always have been but based on the fact that those disposing could afford to. Today, there are more reasons than that alone. As mentioned in endless threads and posts, these cars are very temperamental and people's patience with them is short.
The MB of yesterday as Streamliner noted, would be too expensive and inefficient to replicate or produce. Got that. Today's cars are of course better in so many ways, efficient, safer, more luxurious, faster, and of course less we forget smarter. However regardless of warranty and service now vs then, todays cars are far more complex and unreliable than before. Sure, people rolled there high line cars every year into newer ones but that was far less prevalent than now. Today sooner trade-ins are more out of reliably issues or more recent software upgrades. What good is an engine that is better today at 60K miles when the supporting cast such as 100+ solenoids, microprocessors, and software issues are suspect. Sure the engine won't breakdown at 60 or 100 or even 200K but we all know that other parts will that weren't around 10 or 20 years ago. The paradigm has shifted, not necessarily bad, not necessarily good either. Just different. We reap the benefits of technology and progress but at an added expense.
As for the approach being different, sure high end products are disposable and always have been but based on the fact that those disposing could afford to. Today, there are more reasons than that alone. As mentioned in endless threads and posts, these cars are very temperamental and people's patience with them is short.
Being a longtime driver and MB's, I have seen some of the brands high points and some of the low points as well so I try to keep perspective. Mercedes is one of the more conservative manufacturers and often hurt itself when it tried to innovate without having the competencies. Late 90's to 2007 or so were the most challenging times. Trying to manufacture cheaper, more lightweight and having more electronics in the car proofed a disaster. To the point that they eliminated the free service that we enjoyed. Not sure how many know that regular services (A, B, etc.) were included for free when getting a new car.
Changing the paint processes to water-based paints turned W220's into rust buckets while the prior models were far superior.
I know that many love the W126 & W140's and like to think of them as the best cars at the time (had both) but they also had their share of issues.
While some may like to disagree with me here, the W222 is the best and most reliable S-Class I can remember. The car has been in production for 6 years and the record has been impressive.
In regards to the amount of microprocessors, solenoids, etc. there is a presumption that these will fail before other mechanical parts. I haven't seen that to be the case but we'll see how they hold up moving forward... The issue with processor-based electronics is not that they fail, the issue is what to do if they fail. Car companies fret this more as processor tech is a snapshot in time and many components used in hardware module are out of date or already or unavailable anymore by the time the car is manufactured.
Last edited by Wolfman; 04-22-2019 at 01:32 PM.
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MBNUT1 (04-22-2019)
#61
I am also brand loyal but have tried other cars as well. I want MB to succeed and make me happy in the process.
Being a longtime driver and MB's, I have seen some of the brands high points and some of the low points as well so I try to keep perspective. Mercedes is one of the more conservative manufacturers and often hurt itself when it tried to innovate without having the competencies. Late 90's to 2007 or so were the most challenging times. Trying to manufacture cheaper, more lightweight and having more electronics in the car proofed a disaster. To the point that they eliminated the free service that we enjoyed. Not sure how many know that regular services (A, B, etc.) were included for free when getting a new car.
Changing the paint processes to water-based paints turned W220's into rust buckets while the prior models were far superior.
I know that many love the W126 & W140's and like to think of them as the best cars at the time (had both) but they also had their share of issues.
While some may like to disagree with me here, the W222 is the best and most reliable S-Class I can remember. The car has been in production for 6 years and the record has been impressive.
In regards to the amount of microprocessors, solenoids, etc. there is a presumption that these will fail before other mechanical parts. I haven't seen that to be the case but we'll see how they hold up moving forward... The issue with processor-based electronics is not that they fail, the issue is what to do if they fail. Car companies fret this more as processor tech is a snapshot in time and many components used in hardware module are out of date or already or unavailable anymore by the time the car is manufactured.
Being a longtime driver and MB's, I have seen some of the brands high points and some of the low points as well so I try to keep perspective. Mercedes is one of the more conservative manufacturers and often hurt itself when it tried to innovate without having the competencies. Late 90's to 2007 or so were the most challenging times. Trying to manufacture cheaper, more lightweight and having more electronics in the car proofed a disaster. To the point that they eliminated the free service that we enjoyed. Not sure how many know that regular services (A, B, etc.) were included for free when getting a new car.
Changing the paint processes to water-based paints turned W220's into rust buckets while the prior models were far superior.
I know that many love the W126 & W140's and like to think of them as the best cars at the time (had both) but they also had their share of issues.
While some may like to disagree with me here, the W222 is the best and most reliable S-Class I can remember. The car has been in production for 6 years and the record has been impressive.
In regards to the amount of microprocessors, solenoids, etc. there is a presumption that these will fail before other mechanical parts. I haven't seen that to be the case but we'll see how they hold up moving forward... The issue with processor-based electronics is not that they fail, the issue is what to do if they fail. Car companies fret this more as processor tech is a snapshot in time and many components used in hardware module are out of date or already or unavailable anymore by the time the car is manufactured.
Well, When there's a problem with the car and service says "No faults or codes come up" and sends you on your way... it's a different story.
#62
Super Moderator
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,134
Likes: 3,353
From: Land of 10,000 lakes
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
My experience...
Last edited by Wolfman; 04-24-2019 at 01:58 PM.
#63
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,350
Likes: 490
From: Birmingham, AL
2019 S560, 2022 Audi S8
........................... I remember when they had a handful of models, Now they have every size possible crossover, hatch, suv and sedan. We have A, C ,E, S and Maybach sedans, CLA, C, E, CLS, S and GT Coupes, GLA, GLC, GLE SUV's, G class SUV's, E class wagons, All the cabriolet models and roadsters and then the hybrid and electrics. Then mix in all the variables each car is available in..... MB is diluted. It's no longer an "exclusive" vehicle like a Rolls or a Bentley. Anyone can own one, and if you are into burning money just get an S class. Depreciation is Huge..... How can a $130k car lose 50% of its value in just 3 years?? I've seen 2012 and 2013 S class cars for sale for $10k to $16k and a few 2014 W222 cars offered for $30k. I had a 2006 Dodge RAM 2500 4x4 Mega Cab diesel truck, It's window sticker was $52k, I bought it in 2010 for $35k with only 17k miles on it.. I drove it until 2 weeks ago when I sold it for $27k with 155k miles on it. Never touched a thing other than ball joints, oil, filters and brakes. I'm picking up my new 2018 Dodge RAM 2500 4x4 Mega Cab diesel truck this week and it's pretty nice. Window sticker is $72,695.00 and in 5 years it will still be worth $50k...................
Oh, and you would only see about 20 on the lot.....TOTAL. Now I see at least 150 cars at my local MB dealer with , like I said earlier, 400 or more at a vacated parking lot. But you also have to understand that back in the day, people didn't finance cars as much as they do now and they practically paid cash for a $20,000 car (today's $130,000). Predatory lending may also have a lot to do with this phenomenon.
Last edited by MBS63AMG; 04-22-2019 at 08:24 PM.
#64
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,505
Likes: 3,806
From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
This is what I'm referring to in my O.P. I remember back in the late 60s and 70s when I was around 8-16? years old drooling over the classified section of the newspaper. I would look at the 240Ds, 300Ds, and other various sedans (about the only thing they offered) and always wished one day I could afford a Mercedes. It wasn't because of prestige.....I just liked the funky engineering and quality appearance of everything. It's kind of like back in those days, you had more enjoyable things to watch on TV when you only picked up 3 or 4 stations . Now there are 900 channels and after about 5 minutes of boredom, I just shut it off and get on forums like this or watch YouTube videos.
Oh, and you would only see about 20 on the lot.....TOTAL. Now I see at least 150 cars at my local MB dealer with , like I said earlier, 400 or more at a vacated parking lot. But you also have to understand that back in the day, people didn't finance cars as much as they do now and they practically paid cash for a $20,000 car (today's $130,000). Predatory lending may also have a lot to do with this phenomenon.
Oh, and you would only see about 20 on the lot.....TOTAL. Now I see at least 150 cars at my local MB dealer with , like I said earlier, 400 or more at a vacated parking lot. But you also have to understand that back in the day, people didn't finance cars as much as they do now and they practically paid cash for a $20,000 car (today's $130,000). Predatory lending may also have a lot to do with this phenomenon.
#65
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,350
Likes: 490
From: Birmingham, AL
2019 S560, 2022 Audi S8
I remember those days as well. Toyota made the Corolla and the Corona and that was pretty much IT! I don't know about "predatory" lending, but easy financing & leases especially have given just about anyone with a steady income the ability to have a new car on a regular basis, with hoards of choices.
#66
This is what I'm referring to in my O.P. I remember back in the late 60s and 70s when I was around 8-16? years old drooling over the classified section of the newspaper. I would look at the 220Ds, 240Ds, 300Ds, and their gasoline variants , along with a convertible SL (about the only thing they offered) and always wished one day I could afford a Mercedes. It wasn't because of prestige.....I just liked the funky engineering and quality appearance of everything. It's kind of like back in those days, you had more enjoyable things to watch on TV when you only picked up 3 or 4 stations . Now there are 900 channels and after about 5 minutes of boredom, I just shut it off and get on forums like this or watch YouTube videos.
Oh, and you would only see about 20 on the lot.....TOTAL. Now I see at least 150 cars at my local MB dealer with , like I said earlier, 400 or more at a vacated parking lot. But you also have to understand that back in the day, people didn't finance cars as much as they do now and they practically paid cash for a $20,000 car (today's $130,000). Predatory lending may also have a lot to do with this phenomenon.
Oh, and you would only see about 20 on the lot.....TOTAL. Now I see at least 150 cars at my local MB dealer with , like I said earlier, 400 or more at a vacated parking lot. But you also have to understand that back in the day, people didn't finance cars as much as they do now and they practically paid cash for a $20,000 car (today's $130,000). Predatory lending may also have a lot to do with this phenomenon.
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places (04-22-2019)
#67
I will say that after being shoehorned into a CLA a couple of years ago, I wrote a letter to the GM of my dealer. I told him of my many new car MB purchases, then I gave him my spiel: “You bring a $29K CLA in for service and they give you a $29K CLA loaner. You bring a $125K S Class in for service and they give you a $29K CLA loaner.” I also reminded him how I pass right by Fletcher Jones Motor Cars (those thieves!) right in Newport Beach where I live, as I get on the 73 Toll Road, to make the 20 minute trip to his dealership. I received a phone call from the GM, thanking me for my business and promising that from now on, whenever I bring one of our cars in for service, I will be given an E Class or larger loaner, and he has made good on it.
#68
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,505
Likes: 3,806
From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Wow! That brings back memories. I used to LIVE for the auto classifieds in the L.A. Times. I paid my way through college, buying, fixing & restoring Corvettes. I once bought a 1954 Corvette from the original, lady owner for $2,500.00, her asking price. It was all original, with the side curtains and I sold it a week later for $3,500.00. Those were the days!
#69
Wow! That brings back memories. I used to LIVE for the auto classifieds in the L.A. Times. I paid my way through college, buying, fixing & restoring Corvettes. I once bought a 1954 Corvette from the original, lady owner for $2,500.00, her asking price. It was all original, with the side curtains and I sold it a week later for $3,500.00. Those were the days!
#70
Mercedes-Benz has been building many things and I think manufacturing many things doesn't dilute the brand's outstanding image as long as Mercedes-Benz keeps its standards ( what makes Mercedes -Benz as Mercedes-Benz ) sets the bar whatever they make .
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MBNUT1 (04-25-2019)
#71
That's the problem. It does not keep it's standards, drive any one of the newer entry points (CLA, GLA, GLC, and co.) and then drive an S/SL and tell me the standards match. Not even in the same universe. I'm not even talking ride quality, it's a different car with entirely different standards.
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MBNUT1 (04-25-2019)
#72
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,505
Likes: 3,806
From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
That's the problem. It does not keep it's standards, drive any one of the newer entry points (CLA, GLA, GLC, and co.) and then drive an S/SL and tell me the standards match. Not even in the same universe. I'm not even talking ride quality, it's a different car with entirely different standards.
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hyperion667 (04-25-2019)
#74
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From: Brookshire, Texas & Cat Spring, Texas
2019 SL550/2023 EQS 580 SUV
Don’t know why my text did not show up in the picture above. I agree with Stream on his point. My Son drove out his Subaru Outback this weekend and we took a drive. I was really impressed with the fit, finish, smooth drive and huge amount of technology built in. Not a Sedan but a great vehicle.
#75
Well that's a big part of it. MB has become a marketing company selling tech first car second. The tech drives the car that drives the driver. Building off the legacy of what was at one time an exclusive brand. Unfortunately, in today's world the word luxury is the most overused and abused word, and this cover many industries. Not just cars. I mean a 30K luxury car, seriously? Absolutely idiotic, there are no standards to truly define luxury anymore. The high-line MB models are all we have left that are worth a damn. Hopefully they don't lose that.
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