Lost my dream S560
10-05-2019, 07:39 PM
#26
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,059
Received 3,246 Likes
on
2,021 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
It's tough with used vehicles - who has any leverage on a desirable car? The myriad of combinations of colors, options, miles and condition mean that a nice CPO Mercedes or other high line vehicle creates "scarcity" in many cases... Also - market value more difficult to establish because few used/CPO transactions are the same. In the OP's case, market value looks like it was about $50 more a month than his last offer. I think going new looks pretty good in this case - leftover 2019 perhaps?
EDIT. Didn't see it was a new car...
Last edited by Wolfman; 10-05-2019 at 07:44 PM.
10-05-2019, 07:54 PM
#27
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,059
Received 3,246 Likes
on
2,021 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
Few responses to you guys:
It was not used, it was new. These cars have between 9-16 miles on them. All the ones I’ve looked at.
It didnt take 3 weeks to go down $50. It took 3 weeks to get down to just below $100k on a 121k vehicle. This includes less than 10k trade in after final 8-10 months of payments are made on my outgoing S550. I was being greedy and the $50/month is what I was holding out on for the final day. I would’ve gone for $25. It likely would’ve happened too — still might — if not for the sudden buyer.
Yes, I f’d up. It wasn’t my dream car to begin with though. I saw one on the drive to work one day in ruby black. Checked the dealership and they had 3 S560s and one of them was this color, but the crazy part is that it had all the features (even the completely frivolous ones) I always look for. It was 100% perfect. Like a fool, I waited one day too long. The salesperson happened to be on her day off that day too, so her warning came way too late. Had she been there, it might have been different. Maybe not though.
I dont expect VIP status for 3 cars in 7 years. But now they’re just being dicks because they think they’ve got the upper hand. And they’re just sick of me. (I’m a typical persistent NY pain in the *** who wears people down. Different strokes I guess). I appreciate their flexibility thus far. But the whole thing is getting weird now.
20 inch rims just look better to me on this particular vehicle. 19s are cool and all, but I fell in love with the rims and tires on the initial ruby car I lost.
Im not celebrating any “near successes” because I know that’s pointless and not real. But it was a near deal, that much I can say. Honestly, if I had texted them first that day I’d have the car now. It was minutes away from being closed. At the time it all seemed so important and significant... but in hindsight it was a huge blunder over irrelevant figures.
I don’t want to customize my vehicle or even wait more than a few days because my S550 just started making noises near front wheels when I make sharp turns. I am out of extended warranty as of last month. I do not want to pay for any unnecessary repairs if I can just move into a new vehicle.
But I don’t want to be in a vehicle for 48 months that I’m not crazy about.
It was not used, it was new. These cars have between 9-16 miles on them. All the ones I’ve looked at.
It didnt take 3 weeks to go down $50. It took 3 weeks to get down to just below $100k on a 121k vehicle. This includes less than 10k trade in after final 8-10 months of payments are made on my outgoing S550. I was being greedy and the $50/month is what I was holding out on for the final day. I would’ve gone for $25. It likely would’ve happened too — still might — if not for the sudden buyer.
Yes, I f’d up. It wasn’t my dream car to begin with though. I saw one on the drive to work one day in ruby black. Checked the dealership and they had 3 S560s and one of them was this color, but the crazy part is that it had all the features (even the completely frivolous ones) I always look for. It was 100% perfect. Like a fool, I waited one day too long. The salesperson happened to be on her day off that day too, so her warning came way too late. Had she been there, it might have been different. Maybe not though.
I dont expect VIP status for 3 cars in 7 years. But now they’re just being dicks because they think they’ve got the upper hand. And they’re just sick of me. (I’m a typical persistent NY pain in the *** who wears people down. Different strokes I guess). I appreciate their flexibility thus far. But the whole thing is getting weird now.
20 inch rims just look better to me on this particular vehicle. 19s are cool and all, but I fell in love with the rims and tires on the initial ruby car I lost.
Im not celebrating any “near successes” because I know that’s pointless and not real. But it was a near deal, that much I can say. Honestly, if I had texted them first that day I’d have the car now. It was minutes away from being closed. At the time it all seemed so important and significant... but in hindsight it was a huge blunder over irrelevant figures.
I don’t want to customize my vehicle or even wait more than a few days because my S550 just started making noises near front wheels when I make sharp turns. I am out of extended warranty as of last month. I do not want to pay for any unnecessary repairs if I can just move into a new vehicle.
But I don’t want to be in a vehicle for 48 months that I’m not crazy about.
I don't understand your deals. Purchase or lease? If purchase then the last S550 was used? If leased, why lease for 4 years? That is not effective if so. Getting the car down to $100k by itself literally takes no effort at all due to incentives, trunk money and fleet credits. Where is that trade-in coming in?
The following users liked this post:
Lanzz (10-06-2019)
10-05-2019, 10:19 PM
#29
Cant do that because my car is without warranty and it’s making noises now. I really don’t want to incur a 5k repair when I don’t need to. And who’s to say how many problems I’ll have in the 7 months waiting for the new car?
10-05-2019, 10:27 PM
#30
I don't understand your deals. Purchase or lease? If purchase then the last S550 was used? If leased, why lease for 4 years? That is not effective if so. Getting the car down to $100k by itself literally takes no effort at all due to incentives, trunk money and fleet credits. Where is that trade-in coming in?
I am getting $21k for the trade in, 14k of which is paying off what’s remaining on my finance payments. So it’s $7k plus approximately $10k in incentives and some extra discounts bring it at or around $100k.
I want a 48 month lease because I’m happy to have the car for 4 years. It really doesn’t seem too long considering I’ve been driving my current car for 6 years.
This is the kind of insight I’ve been looking for. Do you think the vehicle should be at $100k BEFORE the trade-in?
10-05-2019, 11:05 PM
#31
Member
I negotiate for a living, so to me it sounds like you got too caught up in the game. Not faulting you, as I have done it too when price testing a dealer before I am really ready to purchase, and most likely on a car at a price point higher than I want to go.
When I am ready to buy, I make sure to shop at the end of the month (this one move will save you thousands) with a low, but realistic and researched price. If the salesman/manager wants to negotiate, then I know my offer is in the window of possibility. I usually will not increase my offer. I pay cash, and most recently traded the family’s oldest vehicle (latest trade would have been donated to the kidney cars program if I didn’t trade it), so the negotiation is easy.
When I am ready to buy, I make sure to shop at the end of the month (this one move will save you thousands) with a low, but realistic and researched price. If the salesman/manager wants to negotiate, then I know my offer is in the window of possibility. I usually will not increase my offer. I pay cash, and most recently traded the family’s oldest vehicle (latest trade would have been donated to the kidney cars program if I didn’t trade it), so the negotiation is easy.
10-05-2019, 11:45 PM
#32
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,059
Received 3,246 Likes
on
2,021 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
The trade-in is my 2013 S550 which was financed in 2014 with 20k miles on it. It now has 92k miles on it.
I am getting $21k for the trade in, 14k of which is paying off what’s remaining on my finance payments. So it’s $7k plus approximately $10k in incentives and some extra discounts bring it at or around $100k.
I want a 48 month lease because I’m happy to have the car for 4 years. It really doesn’t seem too long considering I’ve been driving my current car for 6 years.
This is the kind of insight I’ve been looking for. Do you think the vehicle should be at $100k BEFORE the trade-in?
I am getting $21k for the trade in, 14k of which is paying off what’s remaining on my finance payments. So it’s $7k plus approximately $10k in incentives and some extra discounts bring it at or around $100k.
I want a 48 month lease because I’m happy to have the car for 4 years. It really doesn’t seem too long considering I’ve been driving my current car for 6 years.
This is the kind of insight I’ve been looking for. Do you think the vehicle should be at $100k BEFORE the trade-in?
You may also roll tax & registration into payments if you like.
If you want to lower payments, you can apply said money as MSD's (monthly security deposits) which will lower your Money Factor (interest rate). This money lowers the risk for MBFS and earns interest while deposited during the lease. Afterwards it is returned to you including interest and there is no risk in case the car is totaled. On a low MF, there is no huge gains though...
Independent of which car you get, on a lease the least important number is the monthly payment, but that's the one that most care about. The rule is that you first negotiate the deal on the car. Negotiate trade-in but cash-out and then negotiate extras (least important but if there is room for some Dollars) and negotiate the financing. Residual on a lease is firm and fixed but the MF is always marked-up by default unless you make it clear to get the buy-rate. This is a dealer profit center and mark-ups are shared (70/30) between the dealer and MB. I personally leave extras on the table as they come out of the dealers pocket and don't help the dealer with allocations and holdbacks.
MF can change every 30 days. Just ask the forum for the latest figure. It's pretty low at this time.
Now to the price of the car...
Normally you can easily get 10% off the S-Class without incentives. Haven't checked but think there is $12,500 trunk money plus fleet plus any other MB certificates you could receive by visiting MB events or pop-up stores (usually $500-$1000). Other discounts like USAA can come on top of that. Doing the math you know where you land.
Hope this helps...
The following users liked this post:
rnpalmer (10-18-2019)
10-06-2019, 09:45 AM
#33
The S-Class has one of the lowest residuals of any Mercedes models. 4 year residual is brutally low and this impacts your payments more than interest rates. I would stick with a 36/15k lease if choosing a new car. Zero down. Never apply a trade-in to a lease as you loose that money in case the car is totaled. You can still trade, but have them do a cash-out.
You may also roll tax & registration into payments if you like.
If you want to lower payments, you can apply said money as MSD's (monthly security deposits) which will lower your Money Factor (interest rate). This money lowers the risk for MBFS and earns interest while deposited during the lease. Afterwards it is returned to you including interest and there is no risk in case the car is totaled. On a low MF, there is no huge gains though...
Independent of which car you get, on a lease the least important number is the monthly payment, but that's the one that most care about. The rule is that you first negotiate the deal on the car. Negotiate trade-in but cash-out and then negotiate extras (least important but if there is room for some Dollars) and negotiate the financing. Residual on a lease is firm and fixed but the MF is always marked-up by default unless you make it clear to get the buy-rate. This is a dealer profit center and mark-ups are shared (70/30) between the dealer and MB. I personally leave extras on the table as they come out of the dealers pocket and don't help the dealer with allocations and holdbacks.
MF can change every 30 days. Just ask the forum for the latest figure. It's pretty low at this time.
Now to the price of the car...
Normally you can easily get 10% off the S-Class without incentives. Haven't checked but think there is $12,500 trunk money plus fleet plus any other MB certificates you could receive by visiting MB events or pop-up stores (usually $500-$1000). Other discounts like USAA can come on top of that. Doing the math you know where you land.
Hope this helps...
You may also roll tax & registration into payments if you like.
If you want to lower payments, you can apply said money as MSD's (monthly security deposits) which will lower your Money Factor (interest rate). This money lowers the risk for MBFS and earns interest while deposited during the lease. Afterwards it is returned to you including interest and there is no risk in case the car is totaled. On a low MF, there is no huge gains though...
Independent of which car you get, on a lease the least important number is the monthly payment, but that's the one that most care about. The rule is that you first negotiate the deal on the car. Negotiate trade-in but cash-out and then negotiate extras (least important but if there is room for some Dollars) and negotiate the financing. Residual on a lease is firm and fixed but the MF is always marked-up by default unless you make it clear to get the buy-rate. This is a dealer profit center and mark-ups are shared (70/30) between the dealer and MB. I personally leave extras on the table as they come out of the dealers pocket and don't help the dealer with allocations and holdbacks.
MF can change every 30 days. Just ask the forum for the latest figure. It's pretty low at this time.
Now to the price of the car...
Normally you can easily get 10% off the S-Class without incentives. Haven't checked but think there is $12,500 trunk money plus fleet plus any other MB certificates you could receive by visiting MB events or pop-up stores (usually $500-$1000). Other discounts like USAA can come on top of that. Doing the math you know where you land.
Hope this helps...
So this $12k ... is it usable on a $121-123k car ? If so, can it be a zero down situation? Because I’m really not into putting anything down. I can’t give them the satisfaction. Mainly it just doesn’t make sense.
So the car in Cali is 123k. With $7k or 8k of my trade in plus all available mb discounts, what should I be paying for this vehicle?
someone above — maybe you — said something about the car being totaled and the trade in suffering later on as a result. That’s unclear. Explain pls.
10-06-2019, 10:39 AM
#34
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: unbegrenzt
Posts: 13,346
Received 3,934 Likes
on
3,098 Posts
2017 GLE350 4MATIC
There are two ruby red S-Classes on CarGurus for less than $100k, 2018 model year and low mileage. What are your requirements besides ruby red and no spoiler?
10-06-2019, 11:29 AM
#35
Super Member
Yes this is very helpful. I found something in the official mb website about $12k off an S560 lease with 8k down or something like that. Is this what you’re referring to? I don’t even know what a trunk money or fleet discount is. Lots to learn about leasing. Historically, I would haggle a bit to get the price down but not go too nuts. I am taking this one more seriously because it’s a much higher figure situation and also I’ve learned some stuff — obviously not a lot — about dealing with these people.
So this $12k ... is it usable on a $121-123k car ? If so, can it be a zero down situation? Because I’m really not into putting anything down. I can’t give them the satisfaction. Mainly it just doesn’t make sense.
So the car in Cali is 123k. With $7k or 8k of my trade in plus all available mb discounts, what should I be paying for this vehicle?
someone above — maybe you — said something about the car being totaled and the trade in suffering later on as a result. That’s unclear. Explain pls.
So this $12k ... is it usable on a $121-123k car ? If so, can it be a zero down situation? Because I’m really not into putting anything down. I can’t give them the satisfaction. Mainly it just doesn’t make sense.
So the car in Cali is 123k. With $7k or 8k of my trade in plus all available mb discounts, what should I be paying for this vehicle?
someone above — maybe you — said something about the car being totaled and the trade in suffering later on as a result. That’s unclear. Explain pls.
The following users liked this post:
places (10-06-2019)
10-06-2019, 11:43 AM
#36
Super Member
Completely agree with you. I have purchased 10 Mercedes from the same dealership and they pulled one over on my daughters last lease. Would never happened if I saw the contract in person before my daughter signed. I negotiated everything for her and final step was dealership delivering the car to the house and get a signature. They wouldnt make it right so my last 2 benz was from different dealers. So far I feel lexus only treasure loyal customers.
10-06-2019, 12:00 PM
#37
On the other hand though I leave myself open to being taken advantage of that way. Hence my inquiry on this forum. You folks are much more well seasoned than me with this stuff. As stated earlier it’s only in recent history that I started caring at all. Historically I would just compromise and if we were near my magic number we would all move on with our lives and I’d get my car.
Now I care more. Especially with a new S class.
1- how long does it actually take to order the exact car I want? I was told 7 months. Is that an exaggeration?
2- how does my trade-in get lost if the lease is totaled?
3- is the cash out on the trade in considered taxable income?
10-06-2019, 01:18 PM
#38
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,059
Received 3,246 Likes
on
2,021 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
Yes this is very helpful. I found something in the official mb website about $12k off an S560 lease with 8k down or something like that. Is this what you’re referring to? I don’t even know what a trunk money or fleet discount is. Lots to learn about leasing. Historically, I would haggle a bit to get the price down but not go too nuts. I am taking this one more seriously because it’s a much higher figure situation and also I’ve learned some stuff — obviously not a lot — about dealing with these people.
So this $12k ... is it usable on a $121-123k car ? If so, can it be a zero down situation? Because I’m really not into putting anything down. I can’t give them the satisfaction. Mainly it just doesn’t make sense.
So the car in Cali is 123k. With $7k or 8k of my trade in plus all available mb discounts, what should I be paying for this vehicle?
someone above — maybe you — said something about the car being totaled and the trade in suffering later on as a result. That’s unclear. Explain pls.
So this $12k ... is it usable on a $121-123k car ? If so, can it be a zero down situation? Because I’m really not into putting anything down. I can’t give them the satisfaction. Mainly it just doesn’t make sense.
So the car in Cali is 123k. With $7k or 8k of my trade in plus all available mb discounts, what should I be paying for this vehicle?
someone above — maybe you — said something about the car being totaled and the trade in suffering later on as a result. That’s unclear. Explain pls.
A bit more feedback but you have to learn more about leasing. Perhaps look at sites like leasehackr.com. Good start to understand the ins/outs.
Trunk money is money that comes from Mercedes to lower the price when a model doesn't sell enough or to clear out inventory to make room for the next model years. Dealers love it as it doesn't come out of their pocket. They love to make it sound like you negotiated well but it's your for the asking. This is completely independent of how the car is paid for.
Fleet discounts used to be only for customers who have multiple Mercedes models in their fleet. That discount is now available even if its only 1 car. Easiest $1-2k you can ask for. It's MB, not dealer money so the same applies as above. This will not be offered to you unless you ask and not all MB models apply.
There are other discounts available but some discounts have restrictions and cannot be applied in combination. Check on membership, association or corporate discounts like USAA, Wells Fargo, American Bar Assoc., American Dental Assoc., Apple, Nike, Verizon, etc)
Again, the first thing is to arrive at the selling price of the car. I haven't checked into the latest numbers but you could likely get $15-$16k off without the dealer having given you a single Dollar discount on the car themselves. That's where the actual negotiation will start. The better you know the discounts and state them as matter of fact, the easier you can start talking shop
When you lease it's important to remember that MBFS will be the title holder of the car. In case you total the car, the insurance will cut MBFS a check, not you. They also handle the gap insurance (always make sure that you also have your own as MB's gap insurance is only good if you are not behind on payments). So if you put $10k down on a lease car and it is totaled, you have just given MBFS a $10k bonus.
So, ZERO down is the rule on a lease. This doesn't mean that you drive off for free but that there no down payment, security deposit, cap cost reduction or other crap. The only thing that is fine to pay is the first month payment at pickup. You will also have to pay tax and registration. This can be paid at the time of pickup or rolled into the lease. Based on your personal situation (business use to private, etc.) your accountant can tell you which option is better for taxes.
Lease duration. If you lease over 36 months, you might as well buy the car. At 36 months with the S-Class you are at 44% of residual value. So you are paying for 56% of the car while using it for 3 years. 4 years will be worse. Nothing on a lease impact costs like residual. Other cars like several SUV models are over 10% higher so the same cost SUV will cost less to lease easily by hundreds a month.
Last but not least. Money factor is where Mercedes makes you pay for desirable cars. The standard MF eye watering high (could be as high as 7%) but they also discount and incentivize (subvent) many popular models. I think that the MY19 S560 is now at around 2.5% (0.00104). Great rate. Key is that you see the lease sheet. Have them print it out so you can see the MF and see if they mark it up. Remember the listed rates are for Tier1 (there is also a Tier1+ auto approve rate). If you are lower, the rate will also increase from MBFS without markup.
This all should give you the background info before walking into the dealership. The other research is the car itself (how days on the lot, how many other S-Class models in stock) and the dealership (large, small, are they moving lots of inventory, do they get allocations for cars they don't want). Dealers typically want to sell. A car on the lot costs them money so they are typically willing to move. If they have a car for a long time without them willing to negotiate, walk away.
Also, there are many well-spec'd S-Class models around. If you go for magnetite black, obsidian or mocha black, you might find more and better inventory. Ruby black is not a popular color, hence it is rarer...
Last edited by Wolfman; 10-06-2019 at 01:33 PM.
10-06-2019, 04:25 PM
#39
Super Member
A bit more feedback but you have to learn more about leasing. Perhaps look at sites like leasehackr.com. Good start to understand the ins/outs.
Trunk money is money that comes from Mercedes to lower the price when a model doesn't sell enough or to clear out inventory to make room for the next model years. Dealers love it as it doesn't come out of their pocket. They love to make it sound like you negotiated well but it's your for the asking. This is completely independent of how the car is paid for.
Fleet discounts used to be only for customers who have multiple Mercedes models in their fleet. That discount is now available even if its only 1 car. Easiest $1-2k you can ask for. It's MB, not dealer money so the same applies as above. This will not be offered to you unless you ask and not all MB models apply.
There are other discounts available but some discounts have restrictions and cannot be applied in combination. Check on membership, association or corporate discounts like USAA, Wells Fargo, American Bar Assoc., American Dental Assoc., Apple, Nike, Verizon, etc)
Again, the first thing is to arrive at the selling price of the car. I haven't checked into the latest numbers but you could likely get $15-$16k off without the dealer having given you a single Dollar discount on the car themselves. That's where the actual negotiation will start. The better you know the discounts and state them as matter of fact, the easier you can start talking shop
When you lease it's important to remember that MBFS will be the title holder of the car. In case you total the car, the insurance will cut MBFS a check, not you. They also handle the gap insurance (always make sure that you also have your own as MB's gap insurance is only good if you are not behind on payments). So if you put $10k down on a lease car and it is totaled, you have just given MBFS a $10k bonus.
So, ZERO down is the rule on a lease. This doesn't mean that you drive off for free but that there no down payment, security deposit, cap cost reduction or other crap. The only thing that is fine to pay is the first month payment at pickup. You will also have to pay tax and registration. This can be paid at the time of pickup or rolled into the lease. Based on your personal situation (business use to private, etc.) your accountant can tell you which option is better for taxes.
Lease duration. If you lease over 36 months, you might as well buy the car. At 36 months with the S-Class you are at 44% of residual value. So you are paying for 56% of the car while using it for 3 years. 4 years will be worse. Nothing on a lease impact costs like residual. Other cars like several SUV models are over 10% higher so the same cost SUV will cost less to lease easily by hundreds a month.
Last but not least. Money factor is where Mercedes makes you pay for desirable cars. The standard MF eye watering high (could be as high as 7%) but they also discount and incentivize (subvent) many popular models. I think that the MY19 S560 is now at around 2.5% (0.00104). Great rate. Key is that you see the lease sheet. Have them print it out so you can see the MF and see if they mark it up. Remember the listed rates are for Tier1 (there is also a Tier1+ auto approve rate). If you are lower, the rate will also increase from MBFS without markup.
This all should give you the background info before walking into the dealership. The other research is the car itself (how days on the lot, how many other S-Class models in stock) and the dealership (large, small, are they moving lots of inventory, do they get allocations for cars they don't want). Dealers typically want to sell. A car on the lot costs them money so they are typically willing to move. If they have a car for a long time without them willing to negotiate, walk away.
Also, there are many well-spec'd S-Class models around. If you go for magnetite black, obsidian or mocha black, you might find more and better inventory. Ruby black is not a popular color, hence it is rarer...
Trunk money is money that comes from Mercedes to lower the price when a model doesn't sell enough or to clear out inventory to make room for the next model years. Dealers love it as it doesn't come out of their pocket. They love to make it sound like you negotiated well but it's your for the asking. This is completely independent of how the car is paid for.
Fleet discounts used to be only for customers who have multiple Mercedes models in their fleet. That discount is now available even if its only 1 car. Easiest $1-2k you can ask for. It's MB, not dealer money so the same applies as above. This will not be offered to you unless you ask and not all MB models apply.
There are other discounts available but some discounts have restrictions and cannot be applied in combination. Check on membership, association or corporate discounts like USAA, Wells Fargo, American Bar Assoc., American Dental Assoc., Apple, Nike, Verizon, etc)
Again, the first thing is to arrive at the selling price of the car. I haven't checked into the latest numbers but you could likely get $15-$16k off without the dealer having given you a single Dollar discount on the car themselves. That's where the actual negotiation will start. The better you know the discounts and state them as matter of fact, the easier you can start talking shop
When you lease it's important to remember that MBFS will be the title holder of the car. In case you total the car, the insurance will cut MBFS a check, not you. They also handle the gap insurance (always make sure that you also have your own as MB's gap insurance is only good if you are not behind on payments). So if you put $10k down on a lease car and it is totaled, you have just given MBFS a $10k bonus.
So, ZERO down is the rule on a lease. This doesn't mean that you drive off for free but that there no down payment, security deposit, cap cost reduction or other crap. The only thing that is fine to pay is the first month payment at pickup. You will also have to pay tax and registration. This can be paid at the time of pickup or rolled into the lease. Based on your personal situation (business use to private, etc.) your accountant can tell you which option is better for taxes.
Lease duration. If you lease over 36 months, you might as well buy the car. At 36 months with the S-Class you are at 44% of residual value. So you are paying for 56% of the car while using it for 3 years. 4 years will be worse. Nothing on a lease impact costs like residual. Other cars like several SUV models are over 10% higher so the same cost SUV will cost less to lease easily by hundreds a month.
Last but not least. Money factor is where Mercedes makes you pay for desirable cars. The standard MF eye watering high (could be as high as 7%) but they also discount and incentivize (subvent) many popular models. I think that the MY19 S560 is now at around 2.5% (0.00104). Great rate. Key is that you see the lease sheet. Have them print it out so you can see the MF and see if they mark it up. Remember the listed rates are for Tier1 (there is also a Tier1+ auto approve rate). If you are lower, the rate will also increase from MBFS without markup.
This all should give you the background info before walking into the dealership. The other research is the car itself (how days on the lot, how many other S-Class models in stock) and the dealership (large, small, are they moving lots of inventory, do they get allocations for cars they don't want). Dealers typically want to sell. A car on the lot costs them money so they are typically willing to move. If they have a car for a long time without them willing to negotiate, walk away.
Also, there are many well-spec'd S-Class models around. If you go for magnetite black, obsidian or mocha black, you might find more and better inventory. Ruby black is not a popular color, hence it is rarer...
10-06-2019, 05:29 PM
#40
A bit more feedback but you have to learn more about leasing. Perhaps look at sites like leasehackr.com. Good start to understand the ins/outs.
Trunk money is money that comes from Mercedes to lower the price when a model doesn't sell enough or to clear out inventory to make room for the next model years. Dealers love it as it doesn't come out of their pocket. They love to make it sound like you negotiated well but it's your for the asking. This is completely independent of how the car is paid for.
Fleet discounts used to be only for customers who have multiple Mercedes models in their fleet. That discount is now available even if its only 1 car. Easiest $1-2k you can ask for. It's MB, not dealer money so the same applies as above. This will not be offered to you unless you ask and not all MB models apply.
There are other discounts available but some discounts have restrictions and cannot be applied in combination. Check on membership, association or corporate discounts like USAA, Wells Fargo, American Bar Assoc., American Dental Assoc., Apple, Nike, Verizon, etc)
Again, the first thing is to arrive at the selling price of the car. I haven't checked into the latest numbers but you could likely get $15-$16k off without the dealer having given you a single Dollar discount on the car themselves. That's where the actual negotiation will start. The better you know the discounts and state them as matter of fact, the easier you can start talking shop
When you lease it's important to remember that MBFS will be the title holder of the car. In case you total the car, the insurance will cut MBFS a check, not you. They also handle the gap insurance (always make sure that you also have your own as MB's gap insurance is only good if you are not behind on payments). So if you put $10k down on a lease car and it is totaled, you have just given MBFS a $10k bonus.
So, ZERO down is the rule on a lease. This doesn't mean that you drive off for free but that there no down payment, security deposit, cap cost reduction or other crap. The only thing that is fine to pay is the first month payment at pickup. You will also have to pay tax and registration. This can be paid at the time of pickup or rolled into the lease. Based on your personal situation (business use to private, etc.) your accountant can tell you which option is better for taxes.
Lease duration. If you lease over 36 months, you might as well buy the car. At 36 months with the S-Class you are at 44% of residual value. So you are paying for 56% of the car while using it for 3 years. 4 years will be worse. Nothing on a lease impact costs like residual. Other cars like several SUV models are over 10% higher so the same cost SUV will cost less to lease easily by hundreds a month.
Last but not least. Money factor is where Mercedes makes you pay for desirable cars. The standard MF eye watering high (could be as high as 7%) but they also discount and incentivize (subvent) many popular models. I think that the MY19 S560 is now at around 2.5% (0.00104). Great rate. Key is that you see the lease sheet. Have them print it out so you can see the MF and see if they mark it up. Remember the listed rates are for Tier1 (there is also a Tier1+ auto approve rate). If you are lower, the rate will also increase from MBFS without markup.
This all should give you the background info before walking into the dealership. The other research is the car itself (how days on the lot, how many other S-Class models in stock) and the dealership (large, small, are they moving lots of inventory, do they get allocations for cars they don't want). Dealers typically want to sell. A car on the lot costs them money so they are typically willing to move. If they have a car for a long time without them willing to negotiate, walk away.
Also, there are many well-spec'd S-Class models around. If you go for magnetite black, obsidian or mocha black, you might find more and better inventory. Ruby black is not a popular color, hence it is rarer...
Trunk money is money that comes from Mercedes to lower the price when a model doesn't sell enough or to clear out inventory to make room for the next model years. Dealers love it as it doesn't come out of their pocket. They love to make it sound like you negotiated well but it's your for the asking. This is completely independent of how the car is paid for.
Fleet discounts used to be only for customers who have multiple Mercedes models in their fleet. That discount is now available even if its only 1 car. Easiest $1-2k you can ask for. It's MB, not dealer money so the same applies as above. This will not be offered to you unless you ask and not all MB models apply.
There are other discounts available but some discounts have restrictions and cannot be applied in combination. Check on membership, association or corporate discounts like USAA, Wells Fargo, American Bar Assoc., American Dental Assoc., Apple, Nike, Verizon, etc)
Again, the first thing is to arrive at the selling price of the car. I haven't checked into the latest numbers but you could likely get $15-$16k off without the dealer having given you a single Dollar discount on the car themselves. That's where the actual negotiation will start. The better you know the discounts and state them as matter of fact, the easier you can start talking shop
When you lease it's important to remember that MBFS will be the title holder of the car. In case you total the car, the insurance will cut MBFS a check, not you. They also handle the gap insurance (always make sure that you also have your own as MB's gap insurance is only good if you are not behind on payments). So if you put $10k down on a lease car and it is totaled, you have just given MBFS a $10k bonus.
So, ZERO down is the rule on a lease. This doesn't mean that you drive off for free but that there no down payment, security deposit, cap cost reduction or other crap. The only thing that is fine to pay is the first month payment at pickup. You will also have to pay tax and registration. This can be paid at the time of pickup or rolled into the lease. Based on your personal situation (business use to private, etc.) your accountant can tell you which option is better for taxes.
Lease duration. If you lease over 36 months, you might as well buy the car. At 36 months with the S-Class you are at 44% of residual value. So you are paying for 56% of the car while using it for 3 years. 4 years will be worse. Nothing on a lease impact costs like residual. Other cars like several SUV models are over 10% higher so the same cost SUV will cost less to lease easily by hundreds a month.
Last but not least. Money factor is where Mercedes makes you pay for desirable cars. The standard MF eye watering high (could be as high as 7%) but they also discount and incentivize (subvent) many popular models. I think that the MY19 S560 is now at around 2.5% (0.00104). Great rate. Key is that you see the lease sheet. Have them print it out so you can see the MF and see if they mark it up. Remember the listed rates are for Tier1 (there is also a Tier1+ auto approve rate). If you are lower, the rate will also increase from MBFS without markup.
This all should give you the background info before walking into the dealership. The other research is the car itself (how days on the lot, how many other S-Class models in stock) and the dealership (large, small, are they moving lots of inventory, do they get allocations for cars they don't want). Dealers typically want to sell. A car on the lot costs them money so they are typically willing to move. If they have a car for a long time without them willing to negotiate, walk away.
Also, there are many well-spec'd S-Class models around. If you go for magnetite black, obsidian or mocha black, you might find more and better inventory. Ruby black is not a popular color, hence it is rarer...
10-06-2019, 05:49 PM
#41
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,059
Received 3,246 Likes
on
2,021 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
One last thing. Dealers don't make a ton of money on new cars but they do even if sold well below invoice due to hold backs. Dealers make more money on trade-ins and the service dept. So a new car customer without a trade-in is actually worth less to them. Used car inventory may also be tight on certain models so there always another opportunity to squeeze an extra Dollar. That said, I don't know how desirable high-mileage W221 models are.
Good luck!
10-06-2019, 05:50 PM
#42
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,059
Received 3,246 Likes
on
2,021 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
The following users liked this post:
Radman991 (10-25-2019)
10-06-2019, 06:03 PM
#43
MBWorld God!
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: on my way
Posts: 30,660
Received 3,399 Likes
on
2,844 Posts
2012 CLS63
Wolfman always reminds me of Barry Tubb from Top Gun. It's the name, kind of just sticks with you, not to mention; as others have mentioned, the steady stream of really good advice, insight and sound financial advice too. Thumbs for sure! I've never leased and honestly sounds too complicated for me.
10-06-2019, 06:13 PM
#44
attached are the car specs as well as the most recent estimate. As you can see MB has not even included a zero down option this time because they expect me to pay for the $2500 shipment of the car from Cali, and evidently they “took the liberty” of rolling it into a cash down arrangement on the vehicle itself!!!.... Very crafty. It’s insulting enough that I am expected to pay that extortionate delivery fee at all.
So what I’m understanding is that the $21k for my 2013 S550 should be procured in cash from MB, from which I will then independently pay of my $14k remaining payments and apply the remaining $7k as cash down? I know that breaks the “no cash down” rule... but it’ll be tough to get to my magic numbers without that... I think!! If the discounts are as plentiful as you guys (esp Wolfman) point out, it really changes everything.
I really don’t want to pay more than $1475/month. I actually had them down to $1480 at the time the other car sold. Since then they’ve assumed (“assumed” being the objective word!) the upper hand and moved around everything they could terms-wise. I established that I’m not desperate and that I know exactly what they’re doing. And the truth is I’m really not desperate. I have a wonderful S550 that I drive every day. I may have to bite the bullet and pay several grand to fix whatever is causing the grinding sound in the front when I make sharp turns , but that’s a small price to pay if the alternative is getting swindled by MB. The salesperson truly needs me more than I need her. I can take my business anywhere, just as I can decide to shelve the whole process for a few months.
However the timing does feel right. So I really would like to get this done without further ado.
So now on this nearly identical vehicle coming from Cali (I’m in NY) has been slapped with a ridiculous delivery fee of $2500. And the lease estimates have been drastically altered. The new vehicle is $2k higher than the one that sold, but that really shouldn’t make a huge difference.
Looking at these documents (Wolfman or anyone else involved here) and knowing the situation as I’ve described it, as well as my payment comfort zone.... what is a fair price for this vehicle? And what would you do? And in what order would you do it? Is my price expectation here realistic? I feel like it is based on what I’ve learned here thus far, and the fact that the dealership has already effectively come down to my price point on the previous identical vehicle.
NOTE: I know the monthly payment is not the most important thing, but it’s hard to stop thinking in terms of that. Especially when that’s the outgoing amount I have to see every month.
Last edited by hundolots; 10-06-2019 at 06:16 PM.
10-06-2019, 06:37 PM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
Hundo, no offense here but you sound like a very difficult customer. I am guessing that the dealership is fed up with you and is now saying put up or shut up. Who grinds on a dealer for 3 weeks? I am no fan of dealerships in general but you seem hell bent on making sure they do not make a dime off of you. It does cost a fair bit of money to safely and securely ship a high end car all the way across the country. They can't just eat that because it is the only one you want. I would take Wolfs advice above and figure out what a fair price is, not the price where the dealer makes nothing, but a fair price where maybe they make a few grand on the deal. The dealership has to pay the light bill and the sales guy has to make something. Once you figure out that price, go in and offer it, if you get close, take it and move on.
The following users liked this post:
Lanzz (10-07-2019)
10-06-2019, 07:43 PM
#46
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,059
Received 3,246 Likes
on
2,021 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
attached are the car specs as well as the most recent estimate. As you can see MB has not even included a zero down option this time because they expect me to pay for the $2500 shipment of the car from Cali, and evidently they “took the liberty” of rolling it into a cash down arrangement on the vehicle itself!!!.... Very crafty. It’s insulting enough that I am expected to pay that extortionate delivery fee at all.
So what I’m understanding is that the $21k for my 2013 S550 should be procured in cash from MB, from which I will then independently pay of my $14k remaining payments and apply the remaining $7k as cash down? I know that breaks the “no cash down” rule... but it’ll be tough to get to my magic numbers without that... I think!! If the discounts are as plentiful as you guys (esp Wolfman) point out, it really changes everything.
I really don’t want to pay more than $1475/month. I actually had them down to $1480 at the time the other car sold. Since then they’ve assumed (“assumed” being the objective word!) the upper hand and moved around everything they could terms-wise. I established that I’m not desperate and that I know exactly what they’re doing. And the truth is I’m really not desperate. I have a wonderful S550 that I drive every day. I may have to bite the bullet and pay several grand to fix whatever is causing the grinding sound in the front when I make sharp turns , but that’s a small price to pay if the alternative is getting swindled by MB. The salesperson truly needs me more than I need her. I can take my business anywhere, just as I can decide to shelve the whole process for a few months.
However the timing does feel right. So I really would like to get this done without further ado.
So now on this nearly identical vehicle coming from Cali (I’m in NY) has been slapped with a ridiculous delivery fee of $2500. And the lease estimates have been drastically altered. The new vehicle is $2k higher than the one that sold, but that really shouldn’t make a huge difference.
Looking at these documents (Wolfman or anyone else involved here) and knowing the situation as I’ve described it, as well as my payment comfort zone.... what is a fair price for this vehicle? And what would you do? And in what order would you do it? Is my price expectation here realistic? I feel like it is based on what I’ve learned here thus far, and the fact that the dealership has already effectively come down to my price point on the previous identical vehicle.
NOTE: I know the monthly payment is not the most important thing, but it’s hard to stop thinking in terms of that. Especially when that’s the outgoing amount I have to see every month.
Reply in an email/phone thanking them for the info but you need to see the actual lease worksheet for you to have an opinion on the numbers. That sheet will show all info about the car (list & net) applied discounts, fees MF, residual, etc. Every dealer will oblige. If they don't I would walk.
If you like, post that sheet to get feedback.
On the cash-out, yes. Have them cut a $21k check or have the first payment pulled out of that. You can do with the money as you wish but still have to fulfill your payoff obligations..
Btw, the delivery fee is not ridiculous if in an enclosed trailer. You can have it cheaper but you can worry about that later. This is paid separately anyway.
10-06-2019, 08:31 PM
#47
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes
on
8 Posts
2016 S550
Great info from Wolfman here, and I second reading the leasehakr website.
The shipping cost will be on you, just like if you were purchasing the car. 2500 does seem a little high though, think I paid 1500 to ship a car from Indiana to CA a couple years ago enclosed truck
Your trade in amount will be split up by the dealer between you and paying your trade off, they won’t just hope you’ll do it yourself lol. Make sure they actually pay it off though! I had an instance where an Audi dealer didn’t and it turned into a big hassle.
The shipping cost will be on you, just like if you were purchasing the car. 2500 does seem a little high though, think I paid 1500 to ship a car from Indiana to CA a couple years ago enclosed truck
Your trade in amount will be split up by the dealer between you and paying your trade off, they won’t just hope you’ll do it yourself lol. Make sure they actually pay it off though! I had an instance where an Audi dealer didn’t and it turned into a big hassle.
10-06-2019, 09:02 PM
#48
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,059
Received 3,246 Likes
on
2,021 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
Great info from Wolfman here, and I second reading the leasehakr website.
The shipping cost will be on you, just like if you were purchasing the car. 2500 does seem a little high though, think I paid 1500 to ship a car from Indiana to CA a couple years ago enclosed truck
Your trade in amount will be split up by the dealer between you and paying your trade off, they won’t just hope you’ll do it yourself lol. Make sure they actually pay it off though! I had an instance where an Audi dealer didn’t and it turned into a big hassle.
The shipping cost will be on you, just like if you were purchasing the car. 2500 does seem a little high though, think I paid 1500 to ship a car from Indiana to CA a couple years ago enclosed truck
Your trade in amount will be split up by the dealer between you and paying your trade off, they won’t just hope you’ll do it yourself lol. Make sure they actually pay it off though! I had an instance where an Audi dealer didn’t and it turned into a big hassle.
Good point. Never had a payoff situation...
Last edited by Wolfman; 10-07-2019 at 12:56 AM.
10-06-2019, 11:23 PM
#49
Great info all around. Thank you. Tomorrow I’ll be asking for the lease worksheet and explaining that I want the money for the trade in directly.
Regarding this worksheet, will it specify the sort of discounts applied too? What is an intelligible way to indicate that I am expecting trunk money, fleet discount and so forth? I want to sound like I know what the hell im talking about lol. And next time I actually WILL.
Regarding this worksheet, will it specify the sort of discounts applied too? What is an intelligible way to indicate that I am expecting trunk money, fleet discount and so forth? I want to sound like I know what the hell im talking about lol. And next time I actually WILL.
10-07-2019, 01:32 AM
#50
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,059
Received 3,246 Likes
on
2,021 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
Great info all around. Thank you. Tomorrow I’ll be asking for the lease worksheet and explaining that I want the money for the trade in directly.
Regarding this worksheet, will it specify the sort of discounts applied too? What is an intelligible way to indicate that I am expecting trunk money, fleet discount and so forth? I want to sound like I know what the hell im talking about lol. And next time I actually WILL.
Regarding this worksheet, will it specify the sort of discounts applied too? What is an intelligible way to indicate that I am expecting trunk money, fleet discount and so forth? I want to sound like I know what the hell im talking about lol. And next time I actually WILL.
Depending if you get a screenshot or print out, the discounts will likely be a single line item and you have to figure out what it consists of. Chances are if you didn't ask for certain discounts, they won't be in there.
