Baltistyle

“Those days are gone, and I'm fully aware of it”

Well I strive for better. I’m 45 so am in the middle of the the tech mech conundrum. (this is the point where people appreciate mechanics over tech, or the opposite which is how it’s been going). I do not prefer a throwaway society. I imagine where people value the impact of throwing away a car equally against fuel economy, and realize perhaps it’s better to have a car that lasts longer and burns a little more gas, is still easy to do simple repairs, AND HAS TECH, etc.

Btw, I’m not harping on any car models at all, they all have their flaws. I’ve got a farmer mentality and want to keep all the old tractors around.

C280 Sport

This is why I buy used and usually pay cash. My F355 and my CL600 are my most complex of cars. Both of them very reliable but yes upkeep is very high! The ABC in the 600 turns so many people off but I have a aftermarket kit that will be installed when the ABC goes bad. New cars are just becoming too complex. I have a 2023 E that is near fully loaded and the amount of tech it has is just crazy. Self parking, apps, self driving ect ect. What happens in 25 years to this car? I probably will never find out.

SW20S

CR is great for refrigerators and washing machines, but their recommendations are only valuable if reliability is your only metric for your vehicle choice. If reliability is your only metric and you are considering something like an S Class, you're way out of whack lol.

C280 Sport

I think also people confuse reliable and maintenance. CR is known for this. Everyone said I was nuts when I bought my CL600. Said it was unreliable ect ect ect. The car is fine and never left me on the side of the road. That is reliable to me. Can I go from A-B safe. Maintenance and upkeep are high because it’s a V12. But the car is not unreliable because the cost of ownership is high.

MBNUT1

I accept the paying a premium for S Class performance, I also accept paying a premium for parts and service for said premium performance what I reject is paying for costly repairs due to poor design / lack of development testing. In my view reliability and durability should be included in the premium that you are paying for the car if that means the car has to cost more so be it and I would gladly trade away any non safety related tech and stupid 0-60 times for those objectives.

SW20S

The two things work against each other. You want to see evidence of that? Look at the issues Toyota is having with their TT V6, which is an incredibly complex engine. Thats why both of my LS460s required $4,000 repairs before they even had 5,000 miles on them. When complexity and performance go up, durability and ease of repair go down...thats just how it is.

Its easy to say "If that makes the car cost more so be it" when you drive a 14 year old car and aren't buying new cars lol.

MBNUT1

It's easy to not care about long term durability when you are in warranty on a govt subsidized lease which I assume is the target consumer for this product.

SW20S

Of course it is, 65% of them are leased. Don't blame a company for delivering a product to their target consumer that is what they want. If you want to buy one of these used down the line you're not MB's customer. I'm gonna lease it, keep it for 3-4 years and lease another one (my 2024 is supposed to be delivered this weekend). When I no longer want to spend that kind of money, I'll get something cheaper.

My point is this is true for every car in this segment. There is no flagship luxury sedan you can go buy that isn't the same way. Lexus and Genesis will be less costly, but will still have expensive issues as they age...trust me I had 4. So if you want one, you either need to pony up and get one new, or you need to pay a lot to keep it under warranty, or you need to be prepared to pony up for potentially very expensive repairs if you own it old and out of warranty. If you can't or won't accept any of that, a flagship luxury sedan just isn't for you. This has been true of the S Class forever.

chassis

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MBNUT1

Don't disagree other than the forever bit. As a newbie to the brand you don't appreciate how that is a shift in philosophy for this brand.

The other thing that this makes apparent is how fundamentally outdated ICE drivetrains are. Even with all this complexity and the inherent loss in reliability they are still very inefficient compared to an electric powertrain.

Maybe these cars should just be put in the crusher once they are out of warranty.

SW20S

Was the W140 a car that had a reputation for reliability? No, they were incredibly complex and were notoriously unreliable and difficult to maintain and repair. The W140 came out 33 years ago. So no, this is not a recent thing. I havent owned a Mercedes before this one but I have always been an enthusiast and a follower of the brand

No, they shouldn't be put in the crusher they are still incredible cars...they are just expensive to repair and maintain. People buy them and enjoy them, they just pay high repair bills vs paying insane depreciation. My S560 has depreciated $1,350 a month and thats taking into account what my negotiated sales price was as the basis not the MSRP. You're either going to pay that depreciation or you're going to pay for an expensive warranty or you're going to pay a few K for repairs every year. It is what it is.

carlosinseattle

I'm glad you're coming to see it for how it is, and actually has been for many years. I learned my lesson when I bought a 2001 S600 back in 2005. The car had less than 40K miles on it so I thought I was getting ana amazing car for the price I paid for it. But I spent more than 15K in repairs and maintenance in the first 4 years of owning that car, single biggest bill was right at $6K. And that came after wasting more than $3K on chasing another problem that wound up costing less than $1K to eventually repair. My point is about complexity. All these cars are complex. You've heard it already; modern cars have more computing power than what NASA had so reach the moon.

admit that this discussion has made me a little sadder. I LOVE my 18 S63. But it's becoming painfully obvious that it will become painfully difficult and expensive to keep it running for the next 20 years. This was supposed to be my last fully ICE car purchase; I planned to daily drive it for the next 2-3 years (I work from home so I only put around 6K miles/year), then it will be something special to drive on the weekends and holidays. But that might not be feesable with the cost of repairs an maintenance. I guess only time will tell. Like others have mentioned, we live in a throw away society. when was the last time any of us visited the small engine repair shop, or did you just throw that broken lawn mower away. What about appliances, electronics, even home office equipment. Because of "tech" we move to the lates and greatest instead of keeping things for life. This discussion has me thinking.....

MBNUT1

It is sad. My use case would be just a toy to drive once in a while. Which is why a big bucks out of the blue repair would put the kibosh on that plan. It would not be something that I could amortize over lots of usage. I was hoping to own the best that Mercedes had to offer but maybe not doing so isn't such a big deal. Given how much EQS's have depreciated I am considering one of those.

Personally I go to great lengths to fix anything that I can. I told my wife that I thought that my 15 yo E Class with 150K miles was holding up pretty well. She said few people would baby that car the way I do. It was fun the other day to stand behind it before she was going to take it somewhere and listen to it's smooth idle exhaust given it's age and mileage. Not that it hasn't had a couple of missteps. One in the form of a transfer case bearing failure and another the front differential. There have been a number of transfer case failures which IMHO speaks to an under-designed part.

Gi

SW20S

If you like the EQS I would get that, way less to be worried about mechanically.

C280 Sport

EQS are loosing their value at crazy high rates! Great used car value for those who want it.

carlosinseattle

Only problem with that is then you have to drive a car that looks like an EQS...LOL


The backlash from the styling on the EQ vehicles was so bad that they're abandoning that nomenclature for all future EV's. That's saying something!!!
Not sure what others plan to do, but I plan to go with a more basic electric or hybrid vehicle. They all pretty much have amazing 0-60 speed becuse of the EV powertrain, at least the fully electrics do. My wife's Venza is a hybrid; great gas mileage and comfort, but a slug in the 0-60's.

W205C43PFL

If you happen to like SUVs, the EQS SUV or EQS SUV Maybach (forgot if Maybach comes before SUV or SUV comes before Maybach) might be more traditional looking sans the weight.

SUVs aren't for me but I am pretty sure it is for others.

S_W222

I prefer to see references for statements related to trends that can be fact-checked. I am not sure where you guys are coming with these "partially" wrong assumptions. I agree that there is backlash in certain forums here and there, but if you go to the EQS threads, you will find that many people love their Mbenz EVs. Personally, I dislike the design and not a fan of the EQS, but this doesn't mean Mercedes-Benz isn't performing well at all.
The facts are: In Q4, Mercedes-Benz's all-electric brands achieved a 24% year-over-year increase, representing approximately 13% of their total sales volume. For a company with a strong reputation for ICE cars that just started selling EVs, this is actually huge. It's even more impressive considering that Mbenz primarily sells only (or mostly) expensive EVs now, and has yet to electrify many of their lower-end cars with higher sales numbers. The way I see it is that the data shows a strong future for Mercedes-Benz in the EV market, despite how ugly their designs are to some of us. I could only imagine how good the numbers would have been if they just electrified their ICE designs as is. As for right now, their total sales volume in 2023 set new records in both volume and market share.

Source: https://insideevs.com/news/704768/me...-sales-2023q4/

Their plug-in hybrid sales are also good and were up 61% with ~12% market share. By the end of last year, their growth rate was 73% compared to 2022! Those are again impressive numbers to a company that's not yet fully focused on EVs. I'll end this comment and say that the EQE (not EQS) in 2023 had 168% increase in sales compared to previous year. Despite how much I dislike the car, to me, that's what I'd consider as a solid indicator saying something.....

Lou B

As the first buyer of an EQS in the Cincinnati market - my '22 450+ Cardinal Red - I loved, and still admire the looks of the car. Sure, I may fall into a minority. I wouldn't begin to project my likes /dislikes on anyone - driving my 2018 S560 now, after wrecking the 450 - nor do I care for unsupported generalizations on any subject - just a waste of time, really.
It certainly will be interesting to see how MB changes the EQS and its siblings, whether it's nomenclature or appearance. It would be fun to plus an MB unit into the charger on the wall of my garage...but I don't see me buying another expensive vehicle at my late age.

carlosinseattle

I don't talk ut of my a...

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a6...electric-cars/
https://www.motor1.com/news/630829/m...branding-2024/
https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...tt-2023-01-12/

This is NOT an assumption, it is well-known across the automotive landscape.

Great to hear from yoy by the way

S_W222

I wasn't referring to the fact that the "EQ" Badge will be killed, nor that I even mentioned it... I was referring to the interruption that "The backlash from the styling on the EQ vehicles was so bad that they're abandoning". This is not true. The reason to change the badge is NOT because of backlash from styling. In fact, even if you read the posts you shared, you will realize that they will only change the badge when the EQ sales exceed ICE sales, or at least when the entire lineup is electrified. From one of the references: "..//.. when the entire lineup is electric... whenever that day comes, Benz can simply drop with EQ Technology and revert to its traditional badging rather than be stuck with names like EQS SUV.". Another one says "Mercedes would no longer need a separate sub-brand for its BEVs once the automaker stops producing combustion-powered cars". None of them suggest that they will move away from the EQ badge because there is a design backlash or lack of sales. They are doing really well in terms of sales as the numbers clearly suggest. So, your assumption/statement (or interruption let's say) is somewhat incorrect as far as the design backlash being the reason.

W205C43PFL

On top of the electric market seems to be slowing across the globe. These are some factors that hurts MB's EQ sales. it also doesn't help that certain places, government subsidy is decreasing and the infrastructure isn't there, the way of producing electricity isn't clean or otherwise more polluting than ICE (in certain places).

carlosinseattle

I don't want to argue the point but I saw a video where an executive from MB talked about the poor public reception to the styling of theire EQ models. You can look for it if you want. He was straightforward about it in his reference. But, he also said that MB has always pushed the envelope. They've always been leaders in the market when it comes to technology, safety and design. This is where perspective comes in. When the W220 was released; it was the first luxury car to embrace aerodynamic styling, but add sporty edges to it. Most, if not, all cars, that embraced aerodynamic design at that time looked like eggs. And big luxury cars were boxy. The W220 introduced style, class, and elegance to that wedge shaped aerodynamic structure. It was groundbreaking, and successful. He mentioned that in his talk. Some might consider the widely negative response to the EQ desing as a failure, but I don't. Although the shape is not for me, I truly appreciate MB for pushing the envelope, just as they've done for many years.

W205C43PFL

There are certainly two extremes, either the way BMW does it with their very unique designs or the conservative approach MB does it (at least compared to BMW), I prefer the MB way.

S_W222

I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he said, as I don't like the design too, but I haven't seen it or heat that myself though it makes sense. The numbers anyway suggest the opposite as people seem to be okay with that design. The same is true each time BMW releases a new car (they've always been more aggressive as far as design changes, and despite the controversial designs, they kept doing better and better). I'd expect the same is true for EQ and it sounds that the general tone is that they will not leave the EQ badging until they start offering more EVs than ICE.. EQS doesn't look terrible, but it's not an S-class for sure, and that's my only issue with it. If I was a C-class or E-class type of a guy, the EQS would have been an AWESOME car design wise for people who follow these designs. The S-class has always been about that presidential styling, and the EQS is none of that, but it's doesn't mean that the design is awful. That's probably a good thing for Mbenz anywya because the S-class is not their best selling car anyway so they don't car about that for their first and best EV into the market (at least for now). I don't see how Mbenz could have done better sales wise and on paper. They started way too late, years after BMW started working on EVs, and they still ended up with great market penetration indicators.