That is actually not quite true. AMG is on record saying that they could have put a V8 in the W206 C63, but decided to go the 4-cyl PHEV route. It's now also come to light that the M139 4-cyl engine in these cars is not Euro 7 compliant and can't be made Euro 7 compliant, because Euro 7 has a limit on how much horsepower per liter an engine can make. As a result, the 43 models are all getting discontinued. The W206 C43 and C63 are being replaced with an all-new C53 with the 6-cylinder engine. The GLC 53, replacing the previous GLC 43 and GLC 63, has already been unveiled. It's all going back to larger displacement engines again. So your point is not correct. They chose an engine that they knew wasn't going to be Euro 7 compliant and did the PHEV thing anyway.

 

I think there are degrees of this. Consumers do want fuel economy, every survey of what is important to car consumers I have ever seen says that fuel economy is #1. However, there is a difference between high end luxury/performance cars and a mainstream car. Nobody who buys an S63 is worried about fuel economy, nor a Bentley nor a Ferrari...the fact that these companies are having to make those vehicles PHEV to be able to sell them in Europe and Asia is pretty crazy...they are so low volume that they don't have any impact on emissions.

EV sales are still growing, I think there is a drive towards EVs for sure, its just the political climate made development and production ramp up to a point beyond where the demand was. Thats not carmakers fault, you can't blame a company like Mercedes for looking at the regulatory environment and pivoting to what they were going to have to make in order to continue to sell cars...its the Gov'ts fault for creating and then reneging on such a massive required shift.

I'm amazed MB made the V12 Euro 7 compliant when it is so sparsely sold, shows their commitment to offering it.

 

EVs are arguably an excellent choice for many people. They are cheaper to run and maintain. If you have the ability to charge at home, they are probably the best you can get for a commuter car. I understand that there needs to be some government incentives to get the infrastructure built that allows EVs to be viable. After all, even if you charge at home, there must be ways to charge on the go if you run out of juice, but that requires infrastructure.

The regulations do make exceptions for low volume manufacturers such as Ferrari. Problem is if the performance brand is part of a larger manufacturer such as is the case with AMG, then the performance models are subject to the same strict regulations as the rest of the models simply because of the total volume of cars that the manufacturer sells. The way around this for AMG would be to spin off from Mercedes-Benz and become an independent subsidiary. Basically back to how AMG started before Daimler acquired them.

 

I think the issue is the varying requirements in different countries and the limitations on being able to drive ANYTHING that isn't a plug in vehicle in several European cities, I don't think there are carve outs for that

 

I'm not aware of any country currently that only allows PHEVs in cities. Germany and some European countries are actively working on banning diesel cars from the city centers and to enter so-called climate zones in Germany and other countries you need to have a sticker on the windshield. The color of the sticker determines if you are allowed to enter the area based on which Euro standard your car complies with. Currently the green sticker in Germany allows you to enter all zones, but other colors have restrictions. Euro 6 gets you the green sticker. I'm quite familiar with all this as I'm frequently in Europe.

 

An article on the subject:

https://www.politico.eu/article/euro...sions-climate/

 

Yes, lots of pushback on the arbitrary 2035 line that the EU and also California for that matter drew in the sand. Ultimately, even 90% would mean mostly electric. Not even PHEV will meet that.

 

Fuel economy is about a non-issue for the overwhelming majority of anyone interested in an S-Class. Do you go shopping among five gas stations to buy the cheapest gas? Didn't think so.

EV reception among those purchasing new cars is such that Ford just pulled the plug on much of their lineup of electrics.

Stellantis put a lot of effort into an electric replacement for the Charger that GOES a lot faster that by any measurement fell utterly flat. I hear next year there may be a Hemi powered Charger again. Hmmm.

Other manufacturers are paring back their electric plans. Porsche being an outlier... Or so I have read. Hope it works for them. Having got to partake of the joy of a boxer six that screams to nine grand there is no amount of electric torque that will ever win me over.... especially in a sports car.

Mercedes made the bulk of their electric offerings to appear as a virtue signal VS building a car that looks as other (attractive) cars they offer that happen to be electric powered. I have zero interest in driving an electric car. Less than zero interest in driving an electric jelly bean. I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Government put a gun to manufacturers' heads about electric propulsion; likely not knowing or caring that infrastructure was not going to be able to catch up for decades. Likely without a clue or care that battery technology isn't up to the task.... There is that little detail about California asking those with electric cars to not charge them when they get home due to the electric grid not being able to handle it. The fuel for the electric car has to come from somewhere. Call them 'Coal burning cars?' The wind doesn't always blow. The sun doesn't always shine. Hydro dams (gravity always works!) are getting blown up.

I'm not surprised MB put the effort into the bent-12. High end buyers don't just want a V-12. They expect it. Rest assured that cars equipped with it are making enough money for MB to justify it. I just wish they will bring back the S-65. Oh... That audience doesn't care about fuel economy. I saw a bent-12 car at the local dealership. Spanking new with bespoke paint. $100,000 option. They don't need to sell in big numbers at $345,000.

 

I'm all for being critical where it's deserved, but please don't twist facts when arguing. It destroys credibility. There's no such restriction here in California. In fact, overnight charging is encouraged by PG&E with low rates. During heatwaves, the utilities regularly ask people to save electricity to avoid blackouts when everybody is running their AC at 150%. That happens elsewhere, too. Biggest problem in California is the duck curve. During sunny summer days we have too much renewable energy that we don't know what to do with. Some of our windfarms even produce lots of energy at night that needs to be used somewhere. The media likes to latch on when California puts energy conservation statements out during times where the supply is legitimately constraint due to high usage and then they make it sound like it's a permanent restriction.

There's certainly a continued push here to shift consumer behavior and shift their heavy electricity use to before 4pm ish when solar power is abundant. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I posted this picture before. I can see in my Apple Home app when the grid electricity is cleaner and I can use that to decide when to run certain consumers at home if I want to be a good citizen. This was taken during the winter, so my average usage is higher with the heater running. I can even see the percentage breakdown for a given timeframe of how much clean vs. dirty electricity I actually used (2nd picture).

 

Agree manufacturers needing to comply and makes things they have to and not they think we want it I do want to add sometimes they make things because MB themselves wants to not just because of say regulations. Good example are the annoying trim lines the W223 used to have, you want to be able to build something with features you want and not have to add features you don't want. If I recalled correctly, with amg line (was it pinnacle) you couldn't get trizone climate control in the rear or executive seat. Or something along those lines. They do these trim lines possibly to streamline production, simplify things for the future (used market customers) and/or when lease returns, it is easier to sell to the next customer. At least that is how it seems to be.

 

Production costs are lower if the number of permutations are reduced, but a lot of the push to streamline options and trims came from the dealers. Particularly US dealers. They don't want to stock a bunch of different configurations or end up sitting on their inventory, because the customer is forced to custom order to get a certain configuration.

 

I didn't check the configurator but are the trim lines still a thing?
I guess it would be nice if customers are still offered the option to build the way they want but keep the trim lines for dealership inventory then both are happy.

 

Right, and in fact AMG openly said the hybrid system was chosen partly for performance philosophy (the E Performance as they call it), instant torque, tech and partial electrification, etc. We can call Mbenz liars or whatever, but that's still better than blank empty statements claiming that they only did PHEV cause of emission compliance in some markets, when they've never said that.
Also the W206 AMG C63 S E Performance was intended to showcase Formula 1-derived hybrid branding and insane torque numbers. They likely believed buyers would accept the tradeoff because on paper the car was crazy fast.

Regarding Euro 7 on hp per liter, I am not aware that this is a thing as far as rules... I am aware that they regulate emissions output, cold starts and the real driving emissions, etc, regardless of the hp per liter. The reason that very small but very high output engines (like the AMG M139 making more than 450 hp from 2.0L) are extremely difficult or impossible to make compliant is actually because of their very high combustion pressure and the rich mixture they run (which of course is a result of high hp from a small engine) but if someone can make all of this work even from small engine, Euro 7 would have no issue with the hp/liter ratio.
The 4-cylinder AMG engines was stupid to begin with. C53 proved that the 4-cylinder in an AMG did not match what AMG buyers wanted.. I think new AMGs are not re-calibrating back to their original roots. PHEV was just to squeeze in more hp, they still had several other technical approaches to address emissions without PHEV. Regardless, am glad that PHEV for performance purposes is going away.
I even hate mild-hybrid tech for performance cars. I loved how my Alpina B8 worked cause it felt different from the mild hybrid in my X7 M60i, which was kinda more silent and a bit too subtle or underwhelming on the performance feel side of things. I also like to hear my engine on stop lights. Alpina didn't even allow for engine start/stop function which was awesome. AMG should be the same.

 

Since bmw was mentioned and the exhaust note was mentioned. If you compare even the B58 powered G20 340i pre and post mild hybrid, big difference.

 

Re: Buyers expect V12

Yup Maybach boss confirmed that:https://www.autoblog.com/news/merced...-v12-customers

Re: Four cylinder 63, MB failed miserably thinking the power means everything, you can achieve "fast" through EVs. AMGs should be about emotions.

 

I don't have the source handy, but yes Euro 7 has a hp/liter limit, but the other thing you are saying is true as well. The other big rule of Euro 7 is that engines must run at lamba = 1 at all times. For those who don't know what that means, it means it always has to run at perfect air/fuel ratio. Running rich is no longer allowed, neither is running lean. Porsche was the first one with their T-Hybrid system to achieve this. It's essentially not possible w/o some form of hybridization. Porsche uses both an electric motor in the transmission and electric motors in the turbos and a clever way of routing the exhaust and burning excess fuel in the exhaust ahead of the catalytic converters during the initial cold start period.

 

S Class buyers aren't mainstream buyers though, mainstream buyers do care about fuel economy,.



I don't shop for the cheapest gas, BUT I do choose to get gas in areas where its cheaper vs more expensive. If I'm in DC or Tysons or Bethesda I will wait to get gas until I get back near where I live where its considerably cheaper. I also use my grocery store gas points, and here Shell stations have 10c off of Premium fuel on Tuesdays and I try to gas up on Tuesday. Why spend more money than I have to on gas within reason?

 

What really drove the point home about the four cylinder + hybrid power train is people not purchasing the product.

Rest assured that if MB couldn’t keep up with demand for that drivetrain the rest of the line would be headed in the same direction.

As you said... the AMG/BMW M or Alpina experience are soooo much about the emotions the car makes.

Even a very high zoot four cylinder lacks.... Soul. Bent eights... bent twelves... high strung inline sixes... Yeah!!

I buy my gas at Costco unless stuck in Sedona where I can get zero Ethanol 93 octane.

I’m curious just how different that survey looks when those purchasing an AMG S-Class fill one out. AMG S-Class is purchased by what... would it even be one tenth of one percent? Likely a smaller number even. Rarified air we breathe. Even in the secondary market. I’ll be forever thankful to those who purchased one new. That’s the only way I could ever enjoy them.

 

On the flip side. amg announcing the new electric gt supercar this month, it will be the 19th.https://www.thesupercarblog.com/merc...-coupe-reveal/

Costco gas is good as it is top tier but recently there is something called top tier+, I didn't look into that too much, I should. costco refineries also varies in each state so not all created equal, hopefully your costco uses one of the better refineries.

 

Well, MB will build what people buy...so if people bpought them of course they would keep building them. Point is that powertrain is not cheaper to produce than a turbo 6 or V8...theres no intrinsic reason they WANT to build that.

And thats what I have always said. As long as companies still make cars like these I will excuse them for making cars like the A Class, GLA, GLB etc.

 

If money wasn't an object, personally I think ALL cars with a V8 should come with a capable and fun drivetrain like this. Note that most, though not all, of these performance cars come with a comfy subtle drive mode not only sport lousy driving mode. The only issue is suspension tuning: some of them are too firm and only firm no matter what. Only Alpina managed to make the car more comfy as well as more firm than the standard or performance models, but just changing the tuning of both Comfort and Sport drive modes, including the engine and exhaust sound. Am so grateful I was able to experience one. It was marvelous.

 

It ultimately comes down to what one wants and what characteristics the manufacturer has in mind for the car. I can tell you this, I find the Comfort suspension tuning in my FL C63S Coupe just about right. I don't want a soft floaty suspension even in the Comfort setting, think S Class in Comfort mode, way too much body movement. I've driven performance cars like that. What I like about the Comfort tuning in my C63 is that it is still sporty and somewhat firm, but also manages to have some of the Mercedes wafting when cruising along on the highway. Initial impacts are kinda harsh, but the damping mellows out if it senses that I'm driving on rough pavement. Yet, it doesn't get floaty or anything. Quite frankly, the longer I'm owning the car, the more I discover the nuisance and that AMG really thought about this.

For example a few months ago we did a road trip down to San Luis Obispo. Because of the pandemic, we hadn't been in years. Last time was before I got the AMG. Much of the way from the SF Bay Area is on rural stretches of U.S. 101. The right lane in those parts is rutted out from the semi trucks. In the past I had to be one of those left lane hogs in order to not get my teeth knocked out driving for hours on that pavement. However, the C63 in Comfort mode just ate it up. The suspension settled on just the right amount of damping so that the body remained largely flat while the springs absorbed the unevenness of the road, yet again, it didn't become floaty at all.