Wolfman

A couple things to keep in mind.
First, car forums are amplifiers for negative news. Nothing new and this has been normal. Issues outweigh praise...
Couple that with a new model. Members that dislike the new model either due to features, design direction, etc. will chime in on issue-threads and use them in order to validate their opinions, hence these threads tend to be lengthy...

Can Mercedes do better? Absolutely! No need to defend problems but it helps to put them in relation of how wide-spread they are. The new W223 is selling better than the W222 so far and at higher price points. This is no consolation to anyone experiencing problems with their cars but 4-5 threads does not indicate any systemic issues (at least not yet).
This is where Mercedes need to step up and support their dealers in resolving quality problems faster.

190Efan

Guess you're not an engineer? Since the beginning of technology, there have always been glitches with new technologies and time is needed to understand and sort out the issues that pop up with real world use that don't always show up during the development process. BTW, the Range Rover consistently ranks at the bottom of most quality surveys with these same kinds of issues.

places

Sometimes true, however when you have a post (or posts) from someone who has owned multiple cars of the same level, and/or has extensive experience with a brand, that person's review and commentary can be more valuable than anything scientific.

ColeBlooded

Same thing with something like a restaurant review. People will be extremely angry and waste no time to write a bad review or even complain to a manager. I know I've wrote more bad reviews about businesses than good because you expect a good experience from everywhere, including owning a car.

Wolfman

Not really. Informative yes, but statistically likely not. In terms on engineering, both the door handles and active ambient light might be software related rather than the actual hardware. Now that doesn't make it better but the pain is timing. Mercedes had to buy back many V8 AMG's (mostly E63s and a few S63's) due to CEL's. Turned out to be largely software related but the discovery process took months, not days.

And for those complaining and citing of how awesome Tesla is; for the longest time even a minor accident landed many Model S & X models in purgatory. Not being able to be fixed due to a lack of parts and a having to pay for a car that wasn't usable. Something like 6 months+. Not totaled and eventually no paid rental either...One reason I would stay away from Lucid as interesting the car maybe.

SW20S

Thats the argument that people trying to defend and "explain away' the issues reported by forum members always use...its BS. You can compare what is posted on different forums, theres no reason why there would be problems posted about here and not on the W222 forum, or other MB forums, or other forums for other cars. The reasonable explanation is there are some people that are having some really annoying problems...thats just a fact. Explaining that away or diminishing that doesn't serve any purpose other than to protect the fragile egos of people who are threatened by people who are dissatisfied with the same car they have that they love.

Someone choosing a W223 benefits from reading about both positive and negative experiences. People who have negative experiences benefit from hearing what other people are experiencing and how they are solving those issues. People who aren't having negative experiences benefit from hearing about potential trouble points so they can look out for issues.

Sonic Boom

Totally agree. The first time I ever joined a car forum (ages ago on Bimmerfest) was in search of a solution to a problem. I also agree that most people are similar.

SW20S

No, I'm not an engineer I'm a consumer for a $130,000 automobile, and sorry I am not okay with being the beta tester. Sure there are glitches, but an extreme amount of effort needs to be taken by the manufacturer to iron out those glitches before the product gets into my hands after I have given them $130,000, I'm not getting the sense that has happened here. If these door handles for instance haven't been designed and tested to ALWAYS work...they shouldnt be on the vehicle. Bottom line.

I agree about Range Rover...which is why I said I don't have one. Thats why I would not buy a W223 until I see that these issues have been ironed out...and if they never get ironed out I wont buy one ever. Hopefully they will get ironed out, I would imagine they will.

places

What do I care if it's software related or not? Statistics help the manufacturer but not the consumer. I want to hear from actual owners that have invested in the actual vehicle or brand. As for subjective matters such as ease of use, reliability, and use or convenience/inconveniences, no statistic or science can really quantify this info. Forums are a good place to start and a good relationship with dealer personnel is another.

As for Tesla, I like the purgatory reference...accurate.

190Efan

Science is based on actual facts while armchair quarterbacking isn't all that accurate. To attack a car based on a few experiences of people with the first year of a new model and who likely aren't engineers is wrong. I'm not in any way discounting their issues but to throw out the entire model for it is not an accurate overall picture.

190Efan

It's been pretty well documented over the years that the worst time to buy a car is in the first year of a new design. Since the beginning of technology there have always been glitches with new technologies in the early use stages and the W223 appears to be no exception to this.

MBNUT1

I am an engineer and failures in the field are just that. Failures. What good engineers do is to carry out proper design, adequate testing, and manufacturing control to preclude field failures. Lack of field failures are what distinguish high quality manufacturers from ones that are less so.

places

People that own the car (actually paid) are not "armchair". People that sit on the sides and drive one Mercedes their entire life preaching their father was an engineer have no clue. No one is throwing out the entire model line. It's a forum, get used to it.

190Efan

That's not always the case. My engineer father always taught me to have patience with new technologies because there will likely always be glitches in the beginning. Having new technologies work perfectly from the beginning is pretty rare. As just one example, my engineer father actually took delivery of and tested the first group of jet airplanes that Pan Am ever had and only one of the jets tested out perfectly on its first flight.. Sadly Boeing has now sunk to new lows with tragic consequences with the 737 Max 8. It's also pretty impossible to simulate every real world scenario during the development process. Look at all of the glitches with the space program. Also, people who aren't engineers always seem to come up with things for their vehicles that the engineers never thought were possible so that's an added point.

MBNUT1

Failures that I have seen have generally been tied back to a failure in the engineering process. One of the most glaring examples is the one you cited. Sure there are learnings that come from the field but getting door handles to work properly shouldn't be one of them.

190Efan

People who aren't engineers will never know more about their vehicles than the actual automotive engineers know about the vehicles so it's pretty outrageous to make that claim. Having been raised by an engineer, I'm well aware of the pitfalls and difficulties that are involved in bringing a new technology to market. The best advise I have for people is what I was always taught, don't buy a car in the first year of a new design because of the potential for difficulties like what some are currently experiencing with the W223. Most of the new owners of W223s who don't have any of these issues will not be posting in this forum and they'll be more than satisfied with their cars but we'll never hear about it from them.

190Efan

It's not possible for engineers to be able to anticipate every possible real world scenario in the development process. so that's why there'll always be glitches in the early days of new technologies. Engineers understand this. It's time for the general public to understand this as well.

Diesel Benz

Me too an engineer (not from the car industry though) and me neither accept failures for a released product. None of my colleagues do. Perhaps these day impossible to avoid every glitch but an engineer would never accept any of them.

Engineers do not build products to be evaluated by engineers (or their kids) but the owners/buyers/users.

MBNUT1

Yes any self respecting engineer is ashamed of any of his parts / systems failing in the field. In my view that is the whole point of engineering, which is to make stuff that works.

Edit: Unless of course management released a design that wasn't ready for prime time.

SW20S

I don't think anybody is attacking the car. They are attacking these failures and defending those who have these failures and are really frustrated.

No matter how satisfied owners who don't have these issues are...if they had the same issues, they would be just as frustrated and unhappy. Thats the point.

Sorry, thats crap. I see nothing wrong with consumers for this very expensive vehicle, far and away the most expensive vehicle in its class, having high expectations. I don't even think "everything working properly" is a high expectation. Expecting the door handles to open the doors is not a high expectation.

If engineers can't design a product that meets those expectations, they need to try harder or they need to be replaced with better engineers.

"We'll sort it out in the field"....not for THIS car.

190Efan

Engineering automobiles is very different from engineering other consumer products. My engineer father was a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers and always taught me to never buy a vehicle in the first year of a new design because of all of the glitches that are always found when new technology first goes on sale.

190Efan

Spoken by a non-engineer. Designing a new vehicle is enormously complex. Because of this, there are always glitches in the early days with new technologies. Buyers need to understand this.

amir1

Cars are made by humans. Humans aren't perfect. Add to that executives who want to release a product that may not be fully vetted. Overall, I trust Mercedes. They are not perfect, their cars are not the most reliable cars, but overall they make a fantastic product (especially the S Class) and are usually pretty good at standing behind their product. Furthermore and more importantly, they won't release a car that's unsafe (think of the Ford Explorer initial release where Ford pressured Firestone tires to approve tire pressures that were too low to cause the explorer to roll over more easily). So while I trust Mercedes overall, i'm also realistic (and experienced enough) to know that 1st year cars are notoriously problematic. If you want/need to be the first to own/drive such a complex car, you should expect higher than usual problems. While these problems are real, annoying and sometimes unbecoming Mercedes, my bigger concern would be what are they doing about it. The real test of any company is not whether you have a problem with a few of your products you made, but how you handle these when they come up.

Diesel Benz

Are you assume every other engineer here is designing "other consumer products"? What about engineers designing stuff for a space travel? Member of the Society of Automobile Engineers teach to shoot a few first and then the one that works.

SW20S

Spoken like someone who can't buy a $130,000 car and thus doesn't understand the expectations one who does has.

I'm not an engineer, I'm the consumer. I don't need to understand anything, they need to engineer a better product that is ready to be received by me, the consumer. Otherwise the early ones should have a huge discount to compensate us for doing their jobs testing their unfinished product. Engineers need to understand THAT.

This is supposed to be the "best car in the world" our standards are high when buying it, if they can't meet those standards we'll go buy something else. If your standards as an engineer aren't to that level, you're too crappy an engineer to work on a product like this.

NOBODY driving a new $130k S Class would or should be satisfied or understanding about these sorts of problems. Dealing with these issues is a huge imposition imposed on people who live very busy and complex lives.