crabman

I think the Panamera and Taycan wagons look fantastic but you can't call them a wagon over there; somehow calling them a Sport Turismo makes them something completely different from a wagon...

js_cls

Typical Porsche owners To me they are more so shooting brakes since they prioritize styling over practicality. From what I remember they gain only 1-cubic ft of cargo space over their sedan variants.

crabman

You remember correctly. It's really more a styling exercise with practicality as an excuse. But, to me, they're all wagons, I grew up when they were a thing and I don't differentiate.

Wolfman

There are a lot of variables at play though. First off, posting behavior, language and attitudes towards others have changed over time. Political environments have made confrontation and dissatisfaction more common and vocal and some of the discourse on the forums here reflect that. The W223 has been designed for a different demographic than prior S-Classes. Supply chain issues causes delays, low stock and missing options. The quality of the buying experience has diminished. All of these factors will influence the overall tone of the conversation, something that actually can't be compared with prior or other models.

We have been very happy with our W222 and the car has proven to be quite reliable, but cars were always available in large volumes with great discounts and lease deals which resulted in a much larger owner share of posters in the forum as well.

SW20S

I've been posting on internet forums for a long time, like 25 years. Where there is smoke, there's fire. When people are complaining about issues routinely...there are issues. There is no question that there are teething issues with the W223 we did not see with the W222, and there is no question that many longtime owners don't like the direction MB has gone with aspects of the car.

I don't see how people are "drawing broad conclusions about the brand" here, I think we are just saying that clearly there are some glitches and bugs and design choices that many owners find suspect. I think thats totally fair...

crabman

Doesn't matter how much time you have in the brand, I don't like the door handles and my car isn't even built yet.

odesskiy

I disagree. While my first reaction to any issue is to seek out a solution on the internet, many people aren’t like that, especially many people in the S-class demographic. I am willing to bet dollars to donuts, there is plenty of people experiencing same issues we are *****ing about simply taking their cars to dealers to seek resolution and have no idea these forums even exist. My personal sample size is only four cars. My best friend has a total lemon with serious suspension issues, the other two belong to my mortgage broker and his partner, out of which one is flawless according to the owner and the other is experiencing a multitude of software glitches. All four of us are immigrants, out of four - three have no idea there are internet forums to discuss issues with their cars. Also out of four I am probably the one with most free time on my hands, while the others spend 60+ hours a week running their businesses.

What I am trying to say, for every problematic unit, whose owner is here being vocal about it, there are many more, whose owners are not on the internet for one reason or another. Overall, I feel that the initial quality of the W223 is well below average and Mercedes should be extremely proactive in issuing recalls and bulletins and fixing these issues, lest they suffer irreparable damage to their reputation and massive loss of once faithful clientele. I am only three weeks into ownership and I would gladly jump at the chance to sell this car back to Mercedes. I was checking out a GLE53 Coupe but passed on it in favor of a much more expensive S-Class. My friend with a lemon S580 got the GLE53 for his wife and they couldn’t be happier, that car is flawless.

Sonic Boom

Would be interesting to find the new 2022 Range Rover forum and read what they're saying about it.

places

No one buys a Range for reliability. Most people go in fingers crossed but are willing to take on the risk because it's such a unique/niche vehicle. Vast majority are leases anyway. No one buys a flagship S class "hoping" for no issues. Expectations are different.

Streamliner

Please elaborate on this. Standard suspension or E-ABC? What are the issues?

Streamliner

That’s the other issue: Audi, Volvo & Subaru went the “all terrain” look, so MB felt a need to follow suit? Why? Like with the W223 door handles, what is it all of a sudden with MB having a need to copy other makes?

There was a study a couple of years ago that showed that the MB wagons were bought by their MOST affluent customers. Places like Greenwich, CT and here in Newport Beach, they are quite common and folks love them. Too bad MB is completely pulling the plug on them, I believe next year. What a shame.

Streamliner

I know you weren’t looking for this comment here Wolf, but I, for one, am very pleased with the way this site is run. As much as I might like to make political comments or really trash someone else’s postings, I know that it would just end up spinning out of control and end up with a member’s throwing firebombs at each other. I’ve had a few of my posts taken down over the years and as much as I hated seeing it, in the end I know it was for the best. To you and the other moderators here, thanks very much and please keep up the good work.

odesskiy

He has E-ABC. In his first week he got the message about "suspension problem, do not exceed 50MPH" with the little yellow shock absorber on the dash. Took it in to the dealer. First time they replaced a sensor. The problem came back after a day. Second time they replaced a wiring harness. The problem came back almost immediately. Now they are going to replace the entire front driver-side assembly but the parts' ETA is in September. The car is about 5 months old, out of which it spent about 3 months sitting at the dealer. MBUSA gave him about $5K in compensation so far as he still does not want to have them buy it back. The dealer is telling him it's "safe to drive" even though I think it's stupid to drive it on the freeway when the car specifically says to keep the speed under 50MPH.

SW20S

Its not that they are copying, they are just looking at the same demographic data that the other brands are looking at, and coming to the same conclusions. Wagon sales are EXTREMELY niche in the US, and most wagon consumers want the "SUV look".

The SUV look is just manufacturers trying to get consumers to buy wagons.

I completely agree, and the site is not OVER-Moderated. I come from and still post on ClubLexus (also owned by InternetBrands) and that site is way too heavily moderated where threads are locked if they even slightly drift off topic (this thread would have been closed days ago there), and people are Moderated often for their points of view. The atmosphere is much more comfortable here.

Wolfman

Thanks of the kind words! People will have inherently different opinions and I for one enjoy those conversations. Getting off-topic is not a big thing unless it gets completely de-railed but when it comes to personal attacks, hateful comments and other divisive areas like politics, we have to step in. That said, I definitely enjoy your contributions and have for many years.

I do hope that you get used to and will enjoy your W223! Technology will only move forward faster in future models across all brands, with more software, voice and touch interfaces and option upsells. The issue is that MB has taken a big leap in that area and will still have to catch up on software competencies. They have taken good steps organizationally but this has been their weak area in the past. Their focus on their younger buyer demographic also means they will not go back where they have been on the W222 and before...

crabman

This is the most relaxed forum I've been on in some time, both the moderation and the posters. Maybe once you've reached S class income you don't have to win the Internet one post at a time? Those political discussions: To be frank I come here to get away from idiots that get their facts from their Facebook feed. I'd just as soon not talk politics on the forums even with those who share my views; I get more than enough in the real to want to engage on a car forum.

amir1

My lease on my 2020 S560 is coming to an end in December. After test driving the new S580 three times i'm not impressed. The door handles gave me issues on two out of the three cars I test drove. (They wouldn't always pop out). The sales rep explained i'm swiping incorrectly. Really? I did not like the new interface either. While I can learn it and get used to it I found it took more steps and more eyes off the road to do basic functions. I also found that the regular and AMG versions I test drove were suspended too softly. The car appears to be wafting. Putting the car in sport mode helped, but the S580 sport mode felt like the comfort mode in my S560. I asked my dealer whether I will need to pay an ADM on the car. After all I have purchased multiple S Class sedans from them and a 2019 S65 coupe. That dealer was known to not charge ADMs on its long term S Class owners. I was told to expect to pay an ADM. While my lease ends in December and ADMs might go away by then if things continue to slow down, I'm having a hard time "Liking" the new S580. I won't even consider it if I have to pay an ADM on it. More and more i'm leaning towards buying my 2020 S560 out of my lease. I love that car, its been super reliable, drives like a dream and given today's pricing, is practically a steal at the buyout price. My wife had several Lexus LS Sedans. We were waiting for the new LS500 forever. Once it came out and we got a chance to test drive it we both agreed it was awful. The comments on the LS forums were clearly indicating that the faithful LS owners were not happy with the new LS nor the direction the LS has taken. Many argued the same arguments - ie, its new, give it time, its different, etc, etc. Until today, the LS 500 sales are abysmal. When a lot of people respond negatively to a new car or negatively to specific design or technical issues it tends to be real. I agree that very few complain, but when a car is successful you don't get this level of negative reactions. Go read the Porsche 911 Turbo S comments on Rennlist and most of what you hear is how fantastic that car is. Very few problems. and for the cars themselves, good luck finding an allocation for one. I'm not sure Mercedes can change anything on the new LS at this point, but they should pay attention. By the way, I just got back from Germany and the W223 S class is available there with regular door handles (Not the pop-out type). A good start would be to either eliminate the pop out handles that garner so many complaints or offer the S class in the US without them.

Streamliner

I agree on the suspension. You really need E-ABC on this car. It really transforms the way the car drives.

bishop64

Good post...but may I suggest you edit it to form some paragraphs. Usually, a wall-of-text does not encourage many readings. :-)

MBS63AMG

I agree!!! And spelling brakes as "breaks". Getting "their" and "there" confused, among other words. So difficult to read!

MBS63AMG

I'm like you on the lease end. My lease is up in 90 days and I'm going to purchase my S560, something I've never done before at the lease end. However, I've only leased 4 cars in 30 years. As far as the door handles, it's a shame the old handle styles aren't available in the U.S.

SW20S

I have 2 years left on my lease. But, if the vehicle cost issue doesn’t change I will buy mine too. Not because I don’t like the S580, I think I would be very happy with it. It’s the cost difference, I don’t want to pay $2,600 a month for the new version of the same car I’m paying $1,500 a month for now.

JSL555

Good question and idea since Range Rover comes in Dead Last in the JD Powers survey.

crabman

My wife had one; it's anecdotal but, the lack of reliability fully met expectations.

JSL555

My final comment on built in bias.

I am a retired corporate CEO. I can tell you in the Marketing world we understand that when someone is happy with a product they will tell 1 or 2 people. When they are unhappy they will tell 14 people, on average. I think, and I may be alone here, that the same principle applies. Unhappy people speak louder, more often and with more vigor/anger than happy people. That is the reason companies, MB included, spend a lot of time and money to TRY and make their customers happy. Much easier to keep a customer than get a new one.