Our Kia Niro EV has a remarkably solid door thunk.

 

Yeah the CX90 was kind of a dissapointment.



Really different segments. The Wagoneer is a body on frame truck and can tow much better and is much larger inside. There are a lot of buyers who want big trucks like those and Tahoes and Suburbans and they just won't consider a crossover like an X7 or a GLS.

 

Good point about the towing, I had meant to throw that in, but spaced it. And you are right, the car has buyers, there are those who want it, and no, they wouldn't consider anything but what they call a truck. No argument there.

I would however say very few people need what's on offer with them, and most existing buyers would be better off somewhere else. When you cull out all the people, who have no need, there isn't much left. I had 3 kids, putting me in a demographic that represents less than 9 percent of US households. I could afford 100k cars, another demo that's going to be a small part of the population. I towed, but even with 3 kids, greatly prefer the vehicle I did use: diesel trucks. I also had a minivan, something I would also prefer over the Wagoneer for kiddie hauling.

You end up with a lot of things needing to intersect in order for a Wagoneer to be an ojectively good buy. You need to have the ching. You need enough kids to make the size relevant. You need to tow, but more than that, tow enough that you need more than what's on offer in other cars that are better suited for family life, but no so much as you need a truck instead. You can't have too much money, or you're going to have multiple vehicles and skip the compromises, like I did. Not many left standing on need when you consider the numbers.

I'd think that most of the 20k Wagoneers sold, went to people who didn't need them, they just wanted them. Not that I think that's a bad thing, I didn't need most of the cars I purchased in my lifetime.

 

I see, I stand corrected.

 

Guess their design goal with the CX-90 is a sporty driving 3rd row for the father of the family because of family needs of 7-seat SUV and wife says no to sport sedan, while having the utility of a 7-seat SUV I know, sounds like an oxymoron, I do see quite a bit on the road so I assume it does sell? Seems like too many compromises like you said.

 

Agree with all of this 100%

 

I totally hear your points and agree. I think Mazda missed the point a little bit.

I've driven the latest Highlander briefly. Agree on Toyota getting the appliance thing right. Steering was light, effortless, and much easier of an experience. Ride was much softer. The only thing that was a negative for me were BUTTONS. So. Many. Buttons. In so many different places too. If any car is UNDER using screens it could be this one!

 

Ah too many buttons

 

I didn't want to say it, but Quad has manned up, and I suppose I should also step up to the plate: In my opinion, a little more screen real estate would have been welcome.

 

i'm curious, which ones did you not like or did you find excessive?

 

Well, every single car in my case then is a “want” for me instead of a “need”…. I have an executive account with National Rental and I can rent almost any of their cars for a weekly rate of 185 USD (PER WEEK), and when adding the 4-free days I get for every 19-days of rental, that’s about 7,600 USD per year, and this car could be a Chrysler minivan, Mazda, full-size mbenz, sometimes even nicer cars like a Wagoneer, Yukon etc from the isle depending on where I pick it up from. Yet I can make the argument that I can deduct some of that as a business expense, dropping that 7.6K cost even lower.. All that and yet no excessive insurance cost, no oil change, no tires, no maintenance. It’s only that “want’ for premium luxury cars that makes it less attractive for me to rent. Sometimes I question how National even make money with the rates for my account… My guess is that they know most people who owns these accounts with that level of discount are driven by the “wants” and won’t see a value in most moderately-optioned rentals.

As for the Wagoneer and the like; any Minivan would do just as good, but at that point it is mostly about luxury and comfort. A Wagoneer, X7, GLS, Navigator, etc would drive much better than any minivan out there. It’s surely more about luxury, “want’ and perhaps affordability at that point. If once can afford it, and have the passion for cars, or care about luxury/comfort, why not and I think it’s worth it. It’s almost never a bad purchase with these SUVs if we exclude the financial component from the equation.

 

You might want to consider reading all the posts, so you're aware of the flow of conversation, and what was said. Not sure if you were skipping or what, but you don't appear to have read everything.

In any event, right in the very post you quoted, I said : "I'd think that most of the 20k Wagoneers sold, went to people who didn't need them, they just wanted them. Not that I think that's a bad thing, I didn't need most of the cars I purchased in my lifetime." So I have no argument with a lot of what you said, as explicitly stated in the post you quoted. I didn't say it, but I owned my own business, and had a corporate account at SixT. This because I could get a better grade of car there, on average. I've sold my business now, and will be retired after I finish the consulting I agreed to as a condition of the sale. I think it can be safely said that I know what it is to pay for more than I need, because I simply wanted it.

You mention the Wagoneer, X7, GLS, and Navigator, all in the same sentence, as if they are the same in terms of being a better drive than a minivan. I would agree with the X7 and GLS, the other two, drive like crap. A different crap than a minivan crap, but crap is crap.

You seem to have missed the post where I specifically stated... "I think there is almost no one who wouldn't be better off with the X7 at the same dollars, it does almost everything better, feels better doing it, has significantly better quality, and 95% of the utility. You REALLY need to have that extra space, I mean every inch counts, and you need it often, or you bought the wrong car." I'm not against SUVs, I've owned a number, and have one now. I'm not against big SUVs, I haven't owned them because I have no use case. If I did, I would consider one. But how many people do have an actual use case, or in other words, could reasonably use the word need instead of want? These are people who could not be served similarly, in terms of needed utility, with an X7 or GLS which can be had at the same money. It's a very small pool of buyers. SW20 was right to point out they exist, they do.

Was it a good buy? Maybe. Want is enough of a reason for me, and you say the same. I would however state that I never once said I had a use case, for example, any of the sports cars I've owned. I never said I needed them to tow. Or to carry kids. Or for Costco runs. I bought them for no other reason than I wanted them. I also never bought a sports car that was objectively worse at being a sports car than another I could have bought instead, at the same price. This is where I find the Wagoneer a poor choice. At its price point, and its purpose, it's in competition with some excellent hardware that soundly beats it in almost every aspect of ownership. It's a big difference. No one needs a sports car, they aren't going to die without it. They just want it. Great, I'm all aboard with that in regard to anything, your money, buy what you want. It's not a matter of choosing the blue paint instead of black, when you make a buying decision based on use cases. A use case has to stand up to objective scrutiny. A sports car because you wanted one is fine, but have you ever heard anyone say they based their sports car buying decision on the fact that it was slower, handled worse, had older tech, lower quality, lesser materials, poorer ergonomics, and was more uncomfortable than another car they could have had at the same price?

 

I will say, the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV Pinnacle we have now drives pretty darn well. Its our third Pacifica, the other two were gas. The PHEV drives so much better, its heavier and the lower center of gravity because of the battery changes the feel, and the all EV operation and the CVT make it much smoother. Certainly not a X7 or GLS etc but it drives as well as say a Lexus RX or an Acura MDX.

 

Hi @crabman , the fact I quoted one of your responses doesn’t mean that I disagreed with what you said. I was adding more context to some of the points you made but based on my own experience.
The reason I mentioned the Navigator, Wagoneer along with the X7 and GLS, is because those are specifically the large SUVs that I’ve owned or driven for thousands of miles. I owned them all except for the Wagoneer, but I’ve driven it so many times. The LAS National rental where I travel a lot has 5-8 of them all the time and they have been by go-to vehicle this past year all the time. All these SUVs are great family haulers’ and I agree the X7 and GLS are at another level, but I would disagree that the Navigator (which I owned) and the Wagonner (drove 1000s of miles), are crap just like minivans. They drive and ride far better than any minivan, material is so much better, the driver’s seat comfort and height are a plus, and the suspension comfort level is also way superior. The Navigator shares a lot of it’s chassis components with the Ford Expedition, so I get that, but it drives really nice on highways (not in-town though). Compared to the X7 and GLS, yeah they drive like crap, but I wouldn’t say they are as crap as a minivan frankly. Example: I’d pick one of them up over a minivan in a rental lot, and in fact, I’d still pay 10 bucks more per day to rent either of them over a minivan if I have to, and I think they do deliver on what their MSRP is compared to some of the good minivans out there (The Wagoneer isn’t that expensive; but the Navigator MSRP has really gone up to stupid levels nowadays compared to when i had mine in 2019 but it comes with hands-free highway driving which is cool, really functional massage seats, outstanding sound system, excellent driver seat view and height with great tech). My 1st X7 in 2020 was a replacement of my Navigator and what a difference that was.

 

I agree. The space is far better than the RX and MDX, and the ride is probably just as good, so it’s a great buy in that price range. If am investing 50K-sh in a brand-new minivan or mid-size 3-row SUV, it’s one of the best candidates but now in 2025/2025 it’s hard now to over-look toyota Grand Highlander Hybrid and I think it’d be my 1st choice in that category. Never drove a Sienna but I feel the Pacifica is a better buy over the Sienna at least from what I’ve seen in YouTube and my understanding of both.

 

Good friend of mine just got a Grand Highlander and I spent some time in it, its really nice. Surprisingly nice inside for a Toyota. I wish it had the Lexus TX PHEV powertrain...my wife has said she wont go back to a non plug in vehicle. I think the GH is way better looking than the TX.

 

Yeah, our 530e PHEV did really well. Pre-condition it in the garage before local trips, always plugged in, and smooth ride for most in-town trips. Needed gas maybe once every 3-4 months. one thing my wife and I always talk about is how disappointing that the PHEV is only available in the X5 but not the X7. What a great car it could have been if one could get that 40i drivetrain in an X7 PHEV just like the X5 40/50e. Toyota doesn’t have a PHEV SUV yet, so the Pacifica makes a lot of sense with very decent 30sh miles on a full charge.

 

Yeah, unless we go on a trip we only have to put gas in the Pacifica every 2-3 months. My guess is the next get X7 and GLS will have PHEV powertrains. MB allows you to DC fast charge their PHEVs also.

 

There will be a fully electric X7 option starting 2027 but no PHEV at least short-term. For the X5, the X5 M60e PHEV and iX5 M70 will be the top model, but X7 appears to be either gas or full electric (X7 M60 or iX7 M70 as the top model).
X7 and iX7

• In production 08/27-11/34
• Models will include X7 40, 40d, M60, Alpina 60, or iX7 50, 60, M70, Alpina 100 (all xDrive).

 

That’s a bummer. Don’t want to be traveling with just electric yet.

 

I am okay to travel with just electric now, but not with the disappointing 300sh miles range of most german EVs nowadays, even lower on highways. I'd also say that access to Tesla chargers, and 250kW charge speed at least up to 60%SOC (or say 300 miles gains in 15 min charge) is a must have. If I can have a 40-miles PHEV coupled to a excellent drivetrain like the inline-6 B58 by BMW (iconic and the very best engine today in my view), that would be the pinnacle for me. The BMW X5 PHEV offers exactly that today but it's NOT a large lux sedan, and it's small SUV for family trips : ). I don't know enough, and never had, a benz with the inline-6 PHEV but I don't hear as much praising and enthusiasm about it as I've been hearing about the B58 for so many years now.

 

We need something bigger than an X5 for trips. I wasn’t wowed by the PHEV I6 in the S500

 

From the outside, I thought there would be more space, before I had been in one. The X5 is surprisingly, uh, snug, in the back. There is a benefit to that for someone like me that doesn't care about back seat space, other than as an emergency seat, or the the occasional grandchild carry: That space is found in the cargo area, and to a lesser extent in the front, the extra is mostly consumed by the large (for the class) seats. The snug back does give you those seats, but it's not a trade-off we would have made when the kids were young.

Rides like crap... If you flip it around, minivans ride fine, for kiddie hauling. People, by and large, buy them for that purpose. That soft, I would say marshmellowy ride, is comfortable, doesn't wake up young ones going over speed bumps, and doesn't inhibit the sporting driving no one is doing in their minivan. They are also purchased by people who want that ride, which is why it has been there all along. There used to be marginally sportier minivans, like the MPV, that handled somewhat better, but the market wasn't there after minivan stigma all but killed them.

Meanwhile the full sized trucks, unsurprisingly, drive like full size trucks. Much better now than the first truck I owned, a 61 Ford, but like minivans, no one would use driver's car in the same sentence, unless they were saying they most certainly aren't that. To me in terms of a driver's car, are even just a simple function of controlling body motions, they're both crap. The truck based do have the huge benefit of luxury touches that are unavailable in the minivan segment. It's why I ended up in the Wagoneer, at the Enterprise lot where my insurance wanted me to get my car, Wagoneers are the most loaded thing typically on the lot. I like my toys, and there I was in a Wagoneer.

Since we're fleshing this out, I'd say that one aspect of the large SUVs that some would rate as positive, is the space itself. My brother had an Escalade for years, he loved the sense of space itself. I'd also point out that I have not been in a new hybrid minivan, I tend to believe SW when he says they drive better, I'd expect it with the lower center of gravity, but haven't experienced it. So there is that caveat in my comments about how minivans drive.

 

The GLE has a much better second row than the X5.

The Odyssey is still pretty dynamic, and our Pacifica Hybrid is pretty dynamic, the low center of gravity helps vs the gas models.

Minivan sales have actually been improving over the last few years...

Its a pretty dramatic difference. I was driving the Pacifica today because I needed refilled propane tanks and I was thinking to myself, its probably one of the best vehicles I've ever had...and thats saying something seeing that its two things I traditionally dislike, a minivan and a hybrid.

 

Yeah, they may be having a bit of a renaissance, but you're talking going from a 1.3 million peak to 150k at the bottom, in the 22 MY. Even now, they are almost a million units below their peak. Anyhow, I knew the segment was looking up, having quickly browsed an article a while back discussing it, but I didn't realize how much until you made me curious enough to make a search.

We occasionally rent one to move stuff between the house and the apartment: Put the seats down, fill it from floor to roof, and you can get a surprising amount in there, usually enough for our purposes.