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So early last year we bought a 2013 C300 Sport with the AMG appearance package (so it has the optional staggered set of 18in wheels). I love the car. My wife is the primary driver and she puts a lot of easy highway miles on it during her commute.
In August last year I replaced the stock Continentals which had gotten noisy, with a new set of Dunlop Signature HP's. The tires seemed pretty nice. I got an alignment at my MB dealer right after I had them mounted. Car drove great.
Fast forward to a few months ago and the tires and road noise were getting pretty bad again. She had put about 29k miles on the new tires. I noticed that the rears were getting pretty scalloped with flat spots on them. I just figured ok, lets ride these out a bit longer since they only had 29k miles on them and we'll get a new set come fall or something.
Then last week I get a call from her that the car says the right rear tire is losing air and she's driving on the expressway. I told her to get over as soon as she could and I would come change it, thinking that she probably picked up a nail or something. What I found was pretty horrific.
The passenger rear tire was completely down to the steel belts on the inside edge almost all the way around, so much that it actually punctured the tire in one spot. The car never felt like it was out of alignment, I have no idea what caused this. The guy at the tire shop thought it was an alignment issue and probably had too much toe-in. I had a new set of tires mounted and then took it back to my dealer to have them look at the alignment again. They said they'd take a look but if it was out of alignment, I'd have to pay for a new one since it had been 30k miles. They said that the front passenger tire was pretty out of spec but everything else seemed ok. I had to buy a kit to get it back in spec (or a camber bolt or something) and then install the kit and they'd have to reset everything and re-align it. So I let them do that.
Again, I didn't notice any issues with the front end but whatever. I paid the money and now everything is back in spec again. It just concerns me that the rears didn't seem out of wack when they looked at it and I don't want this to happen again to my new tires.
Has anyone had this happen? Any tips to preventing this in the future? Maybe the tires were just garbage? I've had Dunlops in the past and they were OK on different vehicles... I decided to go with General G-MAX AS-05's this time and I really like them.
Were you rotating them? I had this same issue considering you can't rotate staggered wheels. I bought new equal sized wheels and the issue of fast wearing is gone.
My rear tyres always wear more on the inside rim because of the camber setting. It is not adjustable except by buying a camber kit. I believe the MB camber setting is set up for reasonable spirited cornering which would then give an even wear across the tyre.
I get around the problem with rotation , but you do not have this option with the ridiculous & impractical staggered set up you have in the US & Canada.
The edge wear shown in your photo looks like a suspension wear problem. eg bad shocks
Here is a handy diagnosis tool :-http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/g810/10-things-your-tires-can-tell-you-about-your-car/?
Were you rotating them? I had this same issue considering you can't rotate staggered wheels. I bought new equal sized wheels and the issue of fast wearing is gone.
Yeah, as you said these are staggered so I can't rotate them unfortunately.
My rear tyres always wear more on the inside rim because of the camber setting. It is not adjustable except by buying a camber kit. I believe the MB camber setting is set up for reasonable spirited cornering which would then give an even wear across the tyre.
I get around the problem with rotation , but you do not have this option with the ridiculous & impractical staggered set up you have in the US & Canada.
The edge wear shown in your photo looks like a suspension wear problem. eg bad shocks
Here is a handy diagnosis tool :-http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/g810/10-things-your-tires-can-tell-you-about-your-car/?
Thanks for the link, I'll definitely check this out.
Yeah, I thought shocks might be the issue as well but the car only has 69K miles on it. I figured that the shocks should still be more than fine. I also was thinking that the wheels may be damaged in some way but neither the dealer or the tire shop thought so...
Starting to have this in the front but not the back, back is fine. Probably because of all the pot holes and I'm sure something is bent or a bushing is bad. I found the sway bar end link is rubbing against another part so that makes me believe the idea but I need to get an alignment readout to figure it out better, I'm not going to just throw parts at it hoping. You have an alignment printout?
Are your alignment results all green? If not, have you considered having the dealer add the optional camber and caster bolts?
My rear wheels have barely worn. It's at 6/32" after 50,000km, and the front are at 4.5/32" (I drive aggressively too). The rears look spiffy!
The Michelin Primacy MXM4s have done well, especially with the mileage warranty!
The thing is German cars are very touchy when it comes to suspension. Mine was CPO and they did an alignment. I mean it drives really great but at high speeds (ah-hem) I get a slight vibration. I don't know how the roads are where you are in the winter but NY and NJ it sucks BIG TIME! My wife drives the car 90% of the time and well, lets say my wheel and tire coverage paid for it's self in one winter. I'm just hoping nothing expensive is damaged like front struts. I plan to get an alignment soon hopefully and that will help me figure out if things are bad. And the cupping was on my winter tires and they were driven on dry pavement for times between storms and abnormal wear developed on snows when that happens.
Were you rotating them? I had this same issue considering you can't rotate staggered wheels. I bought new equal sized wheels and the issue of fast wearing is gone.
Which equal sized wheels and tires did you buy... I have the exact same model as yours and i might do that after my current set of tires wear out.. Thanks
Apparently our cars are programmed/calibrated for staggered wheels if they come with them. Especially 4matic, how many awd cars come from the factory staggered? BMW doesn't do that and they will tell you not to put a staggered set up on their x-drive. Mine came staggered and I'll keep it that way. I knew this when I bought the car but if someone wants to do this and get rid of their OEM staggered wheels cheap put me first on the list ...
Are your alignment results all green? If not, have you considered having the dealer add the optional camber and caster bolts?
My rear wheels have barely worn. It's at 6/32" after 50,000km, and the front are at 4.5/32" (I drive aggressively too). The rears look spiffy!
The Michelin Primacy MXM4s have done well, especially with the mileage warranty!
I don't have my printouts with me (I will upload them later tonight if I remember) but yes everything from the original alignment at the dealer that I did last year was green and "in-spec".
After I mounted the new tires last week, and I took it back to the dealer for alignment, they showed me an initial print of what it looked like. Everything was green again except for the passenger front wheel, which I think measured -1.4 so it was in the red. Again, rears still looked ok. He said he needed to add camber bolts to get the front correct again so I let him do that. He said it would push everything out of alignment again after install so he would have to align everything again, which he did.
Apparently our cars are programmed/calibrated for staggered wheels if they come with them. Especially 4matic, how many awd cars come from the factory staggered? BMW doesn't do that and they will tell you not to put a staggered set up on their x-drive. Mine came staggered and I'll keep it that way. I knew this when I bought the car but if someone wants to do this and get rid of their OEM staggered wheels cheap put me first on the list ...
Call me cheap too. This was one of those reasons why I was initially turned off of the W204 b/c I could only buy the staggered setup (sports version) of the C300 back when I first bought the car.
That said, I don't think this is the only staggered setup for a 4 wheel drive car. However, I don't seem to be running into the issues presented in this thread (mind you, I do alignments annually and there's always something that is out of spec). I also drive my car hard and I choose to put on grand touring all season tires (which typically have a softer tread compound) and I don't see any problems with excessive rear tire wear.
Originally Posted by Road Warrior
I don't have my printouts with me (I will upload them later tonight if I remember) but yes everything from the original alignment at the dealer that I did last year was green and "in-spec".
After I mounted the new tires last week, and I took it back to the dealer for alignment, they showed me an initial print of what it looked like. Everything was green again except for the passenger front wheel, which I think measured -1.4 so it was in the red. Again, rears still looked ok. He said he needed to add camber bolts to get the front correct again so I let him do that. He said it would push everything out of alignment again after install so he would have to align everything again, which he did.
I'll try to post up both results later today.
No reason for me to doubt you but I will say that if you can get an all green alignment setup without the additional camber/caster bolts fitted to your vehicle then I am truly surprised! There is a feature on many alignment racks for a dealer to basically 'ignore' a set of values. I caught one MB dealership doing this and they told me they did this to get a sheet that only showed green values, and their reasoning behind doing this was because certain values were not adjustable with the factory setup. I wonder if this is the case here. Look forward to the upload!
That looks like a lot more than being out of alignment with the cupping/flat spot areas. I would check the suspension to make sure something isn't damaged.
With the way that tire is worn and how badly it is worn I would have to believe you could definitely feel that inside the car. With the front tire also being out of alignment could the car have hot some kind of pothole or something on that side of the car? I know you don't drive the car daily, but did your wife say it was just fine and she didn't notice anything before the tire blew? If so, I would find that hard to believe.
ALPINA CLASSIC light alloy wheels (Style B7), 20 x 8.5 front, 20 x 10.0 rear; and 255/40 front, 295/35 rear performance tires1 (includes increased top-speed limiter)
I can find you several model Porsche that come with staggered wheels from factory.
To the OP... I am on my 3rd (or is it 4th) set of tires and I can tell you my rears wear out the inside faster than the outer edge. Although not as bad as in your picture... So something is definitely off in your case...
I recently took it in for an alignment (indy shop) that is highly recommended (on this forum and elsewhere) in my area, spent $120 to be told there isn't much that can be done, that there are "kits" that can replace factory bolts but that shop does not recommend such a conversion... I am actually shocked to know the dealer does have a solution and a[preciate you posting your that tidbit...
I can find you several model Porsche that come with staggered wheels from factory.
To the OP... I am on my 3rd (or is it 4th) set of tires and I can tell you my rears wear out the inside faster than the outer edge. Although not as bad as in your picture... So something is definitely off in your case...
I recently took it in for an alignment (indy shop) that is highly recommended (on this forum and elsewhere) in my area, spent $120 to be told there isn't much that can be done, that there are "kits" that can replace factory bolts but that shop does not recommend such a conversion... I am actually shocked to know the dealer does have a solution and a[preciate you posting your that tidbit...
Good luck...
I know that staggered awd cars are out there, majority are not though. My point in saying that though is if an awd car came staggered it's meant to stay like that, and a non staggered awd car is not meant to have a staggered setup put on, they are set up differently. Changing staggered to non staggered having an effect? I'm don't know, you can call MBUSA and ask if it will cause a problem..
Installing camber bolts and whatnot will not cause problems if done right, cars come from the factory with them often and I'm not surprised MB offered them as sometimes you have to have them to get a correct alignment.
My rear tyres luckily always weared fast but even, however my front tyres had a severe problem right out of the factory. Just before the 1st service at around 15 000 Km I decided to look at tyres(2nd set of rear continentals then) and to my horrer saw the front tyres wires coming out on the insides with full treads on the outsides. I had them replaced and put the worst one(left) in boot for dealer to see.
They admit a problem(no refund offered), had to replace bushings, can you imagine faulty failed bushings out of the factory(South Africa) in such a short time, must be a shady outsourced fabrication from South African origin.
After that it weared ok, but to be honest for over 100 000Km I always had to replaced the front tyres before they were weared down, due to uneven wear, but not as bad as originally(Alignment set by dealer automatically).
So I spoke to a well fiited neat tyre replacement shop about it. The guy told me they found this on all Mercedes cars. They offered to set the wheel alignment to their specs & I must keep the fronts at 2.3 to 2.4 pressure. I did that and now after 30 000Km the wear seems still good, so it looks this worked.
So as it looks now, the dealer will not set my wheel alignment again to the specs of Mercedes Factory.
That looks like a lot more than being out of alignment with the cupping/flat spot areas. I would check the suspension to make sure something isn't damaged.
With the way that tire is worn and how badly it is worn I would have to believe you could definitely feel that inside the car. With the front tire also being out of alignment could the car have hot some kind of pothole or something on that side of the car? I know you don't drive the car daily, but did your wife say it was just fine and she didn't notice anything before the tire blew? If so, I would find that hard to believe.
A pothole is always a possibility but the car still seemed to drive and track straight and fine. I didn't really notice anything other than loudness and more vibration (which would come with f-d up rear tires).
Here are my last two alignments as promised. The dealer must have switched software in between visits, hence the two page print out for the last alignment I got. The only thing that seems really off is the front passenger toe.
This is from last year, right after I had the Dunlops mounted.
This is a week or two ago when I had the Generals mounted, before the alignment.
Corrected alignment after the bolt kit.
Sorry for the huge pics. Maybe the out of whack toe in front caused my issue in the rear?
So could this issue stem from the fact that your tolerance values seem greater than mine? I don't know why, and don't know if it in fact that's the case. HOWEVER, it is important to note that the picture at the bottom - the values are outside of the tolerable values as per my alignment sheet
*too lazy to take a pic, but if you want I can do that to prove the values above.
Note: Can you confirm if you have the 4 dr or the 2dr? And when they did the alignment, did they choose the 4dr alignment specs or the two door? I believe (not 100% sure) the values are different depending on # of doors.
Last edited by superangrypenguin; 05-26-2017 at 10:20 AM.
So could this issue stem from the fact that your tolerance values seem greater than mine? I don't know why, and don't know if it in fact that's the case. HOWEVER, it is important to note that the picture at the bottom - the values are outside of the tolerable values as per my alignment sheet
*too lazy to take a pic, but if you want I can do that to prove the values above.
Note: Can you confirm if you have the 4 dr or the 2dr? And when they did the alignment, did they choose the 4dr alignment specs or the two door? I believe (not 100% sure) the values are different depending on # of doors.
Hmm... That I'm not sure. I have a 2013 4dr Sedan. I don't know if they imputed the correct number of doors.
You don't have to post the pic now but if you get a chance at some point that would be great. Might give me some basis for comparison if I take it back in.
That being said, is there a reason why they can't get everything to line up perfectly? Or at least pretty close? I know a lot about cars but not a lot about how much they can adjust alignment specs. Maybe because of manufacturing differences in the car parts and how everything lines up on each vehicle? Might be slightly different on each?
Last edited by Road Warrior; 05-26-2017 at 10:37 AM.
Hmm... That I'm not sure. I have a 2013 4dr Sedan. I don't know if they imputed the correct number of doors.
You don't have to post the pic now but if you get a chance at some point that would be great. Might give me some basis for comparison if I take it back in.
That being said, is there a reason why they can't get everything to line up perfectly? Or at least pretty close? I know a lot about cars but not a lot about how much they can adjust alignment specs. Maybe because of manufacturing differences in the car parts and how everything lines up on each vehicle? Might be slightly different on each?
My understanding of why they can't get everything spot on is simply because of the 'weight'/'load' of the vehicle. If the vehicle has more weight on it (e.g. full tank of washer fluid, full tank of fuel, crap in the trunk), then the values will be different than a car which is relatively empty. I mean, picture a fully loaded car. The wheels will be pressed outwards...or conversely if you can imagine a lift for a car lifting the car off of the ground, you can see the wheels start to press in until the wheels are completely off of the ground.
That's why there's a variance and tolerance upper and lower limit.
I believe the 2012/2013 models should have the same alignment specs, but don't hold me to it. I just can't see why that info would have changed. According to the info provided below in the pic, it would appear that all W204's (2008 to 2015) should have the same tolerances (at least for 4 doors I would presume).
Hmm... That I'm not sure. I have a 2013 4dr Sedan. I don't know if they imputed the correct number of doors.
You don't have to post the pic now but if you get a chance at some point that would be great. Might give me some basis for comparison if I take it back in.
That being said, is there a reason why they can't get everything to line up perfectly? Or at least pretty close? I know a lot about cars but not a lot about how much they can adjust alignment specs. Maybe because of manufacturing differences in the car parts and how everything lines up on each vehicle? Might be slightly different on each?
as Superangrypenguin said, he has truth on that. But an alignment to that degree is not one many give. Ex; BMW wants the tech to put around 180lbs in the driver seat to simulate the drivers weight and account for the alignment change. 85% of the time techs will see it as "toe-n-go", that means maybe they will adjust camber some if they can but just really set the TOE in the acceptable ranges and call it a day, doing that paid 2-2 1/2 at the BMW dealer I worked at as a tech. I'm a bit self acclaimed as ocd with alignments, I would do adjustments until each side was a mirror of the other, it's just that it takes a "lot" longer to get the alignment like that and I usually spent at least an 1 1/2 hrs doing it... Toe can be adjusted easily to dead on range wise, camber is limited to the adjustment range of the bolt if there is one. To give an idea BMW warranty alignment paid like 6 1/2 hrs. but no one is going to pay that for an alignment. I've actually done some research on MB alignment (proper) and it's actually very specific to get a proper one, IMO more so then BMW ironically.
2012/2013 are pretty much the same specs on alignment.
as Superangrypenguin said, he has truth on that. But an alignment to that degree is not one many give. Ex; BMW wants the tech to put around 180lbs in the driver seat to simulate the drivers weight and account for the alignment change. 85% of the time techs will see it as "toe-n-go", that means maybe they will adjust camber some if they can but just really set the TOE in the acceptable ranges and call it a day, doing that paid 2-2 1/2 at the BMW dealer I worked at as a tech. I'm a bit self acclaimed as ocd with alignments, I would do adjustments until each side was a mirror of the other, it's just that it takes a "lot" longer to get the alignment like that and I usually spent at least an 1 1/2 hrs doing it... Toe can be adjusted easily to dead on range wise, camber is limited to the adjustment range of the bolt if there is one. To give an idea BMW warranty alignment paid like 6 1/2 hrs. but no one is going to pay that for an alignment. I've actually done some research on MB alignment (proper) and it's actually very specific to get a proper one, IMO more so then BMW ironically.
2012/2013 are pretty much the same specs on alignment.
Thanks for the detailed explanation as always! This is precisely why I always ask for alignment printouts of before and after. I caught a MB tech lying to me on a post alignment result telling me things were 'in' spec despite the sheet telling me otherwise. I stood my ground and got a service manager involved (an old friend of mine from another dealership) who then apologized profusely for the tech who lied point blank in my face.
I dont believe dealership mechanics are crooks or liars across the board, but I also like to question and get a thorough understanding of work done - so I always ask for a final printout. Keeps them honest, and keeps me from believing aliens are real and keeps me from being paranoid LOL
Keeps them honest, and keeps me from believing aliens are real and keeps me from being paranoid LOL
No problem, In all honestly I believe most alignments are not followed properly. I dug into aspects of MB alignment specs after I saw something interesting. An important aspect to an alignment is the vehicles ride height, ride height has a direct affect on alignment geometry. On BMW, you measure to the top of the wheel arches to get the height, MB is ironically much more exact. From what I read their formulation for ride height seems to be based off of axle angle geometry with a special tool. Based off of the reading the tool gives you, you then look it up in a grid chart that shows the different values, line up the 2 values and then you have the target camber you want for proper handling as the target camber changes slightly based on the readings. If I was to put an order to things it would be caster-camber-toe, adjustability provided of course. I can go on and on about alignment aspects but people would go nuts on me lol.
FYI..... Aliens are real.... so is big foot... megladon...... and a lot of mythological beings!!!! Just look at youtube....
As mentioned looks to be a suspension issue with the 'uneven' wear on the inside spot, and variability of where (in a radial manner, not referring to the obvious difference across the tread).
FWIW with lower air pressures up front you will notice greatly increased wear on the inner edge.
05-24-2017, 04:38 PM
. I'm just hoping nothing expensive is damaged like front struts. I plan to get an alignment soon hopefully and that will help me figure out if things are bad. And the cupping was on my winter tires and they were driven on dry pavement for times between storms and abnormal wear developed on snows when that happens.
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LOL 
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